Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[Foxfyre]

Assuming this is the case - and I dont' know whether the current crop of Muslim immigrants into Europe has had long enough to assimilate, but, assuming you are correct about Islam - what is it about Islam as a religion, or Muslims as people, that makes the notion of modernization and moderation less feasible than it was for Christian civilization?

From all reports, the muslims going into Europe have no interest in "assimilating". They want/will force the Europeans to "assimilate" with them.

At least, if they attain a large enough minority, the historical evidence is that they will try. If they attain a majority, it is a near certainty.

There are a few western nations that are coming to their senses and starting to fight back now. Belgium is especially taking measures to defend their culture.

 

[logical4u]

You sure about that?

Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not all who call themselves Christians are Christian. Not all who call themselves emmisaries of the Lord or the Holy Spirit are. The most terrible sin cited in the New Testament is to attribute or commit sin in the name of the Holy Spirit. And because I believe that it is by their fruit that we shall know them, I have no trouble saying that the LRA is not Christian and is anathema to all Christian teachings.

Nobody outside of Uganda cares about the LRA or supports it cause, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah etc. get money and support from numerous supporters worldwide.

 

[logical4u]

Christians aren't going to other countries and trying to force the host country to assimilate to their way of life.

Spreading the seed can be seen as doing this, so I disagree. In the past, the Crusades. Not all that long ago.

Why isn't islam happy with just "spreading the seed"?
Why do islamic nations keep their people from reading about the "fathers of their faith" (that would Abraham and before him, according to islam)?

The crusades were started because muslims invaded Jerusalem and "stole" the cross that Yeshua was nailed upon. It wasn't enough for them to do that, the murdering was terrible, and the Christians requested assistance (and got it). Why do muslims always conveniently leave out the fact that they were on a murderous rampage until some Europeans had enough and made it really ugly for muslims to continue their murderous conquering of weaker or peaceful peoples (kind of like the LRA)?

 

[Ropey]

You keep telling yourself that about the Crusades. Who entered the Middle East? Why? To respond to indigents who were from where?

Certainly not Britain. Certainly not France. Certainly not Spain or Italy. A lot of converts from the Cross search...

Which Crusade was that? All of them? Do you know how many there were and that the Crusades were multi-generational and from many different countries throughout the years?

They were all for the Cross?

It's not a simple thing to research for truth because there are a lot of lies out there.

For all the beliefs. They hide from their truths.

 

[Foxfyre]

Christians aren't going to other countries and trying to force the host country to assimilate to their way of life.

I think in most cases, that is correct. Christians do see it as their duty to spread the gospel and introduce people to the Christ wherever that gospel is received. And those who do receive it I believe God does change in positive ways, not from any government or religious edict or requirement. But those who do not choose to receive it are not required to either hear it or respect it.

That has not been true in all of Christian history, however, as history testifies. The Puritans in the New World, the Roman Catholic Church among the Indians in the Southwest, the Methodists in Hawaii, etc. all did attempt to impose western culture upon the indigenous populations with some serious unintended bad consequences resulting. I would like to think the huge majority of Christians learned from those mistakes and would not presume to repeat such offenses.

 

[Ropey]

I would like to think the huge majority of Christians learned from those mistakes and would not presume to repeat such offenses.

I believe you would not be far off. Christianity is modernizing quickly in the grand scheme of things.

From without, not from the Vatican. Oh, the commands and reformations come from the Vatican, but they do not birth from there.

 

[Foxfyre]

I would like to think the huge majority of Christians learned from those mistakes and would not presume to repeat such offenses.

I believe you would not be far off. Christianity is modernizing quickly in the grand scheme of things.

From without, not from the Vatican. Oh, the commands and reformations come from the Vatican, but they do not birth from there.

I imagine among the billion or so Roman Catholics around the world, you will find as many differences of opinions about almost everything as you find among Protestants about almost everything. There are a few key components that ALL Christians must agree on such as Jesus was divine, he died on the Cross, he rose again, and he is salvation, but even in these key points, Chrsitians hold many differing opinions about how or why this or that happened and what it means or how it is explained. Even here on USMB we have seen examples of the most radical and legalistic Christian fundamentalism, examples of scholarly theological approach, and everything in between.

When you consider that the Roman Catholic Church claims to trace its beginnings all the way back to the Apostle Peter in the First Century AD--(I personally place it in the 4th Century)--it has been around for a very long time. But all those Popes across the centuries did not become infallible until July 18, 1870 when it was declared an official dogma by the Roman Catholic Church. I'm pretty sure there are many Catholics who don't really accept that as something they HAVE to believe now.

I think most Christians, even the Roman Catholics who once didn't, encourage people to study the Bible, the history of their faiths and traditions, and understand it as much as they possibly can.

I know the Jews certainly encourage people to study all Jewish history and beliefs including being thoroughly schooled in the Scriptures.

I wonder if Islam wants its people to know all its history and how much independent study of the Qu'ran and other religious texts are encouraged?

 

[logical4u]

You keep telling yourself that about the Crusades. Who entered the Middle East? Why? To respond to indigents who were from where?

Certainly not Britain. Certainly not France. Certainly not Spain or Italy. A lot of converts from the Cross search...

Which Crusade was that? All of them? Do you know how many there were and that the Crusades were multi-generational and from many different countries throughout the years?

They were all for the Cross?

It's not a simple thing to research for truth because there are a lot of lies out there.

For all the beliefs. They hide from their truths.

Who was doing the invading, and has been since the invention of islam? Can you name any islamic community today that can support itself? Can you name any islamic community today that is not a rathole and a place where people want to emmigrate?
Yes the Crusades were multi-generational, how long will we have to "tolerate" "jihad". How many generations will that claim?

 

[High_Gravity]

I would like to think the huge majority of Christians learned from those mistakes and would not presume to repeat such offenses.

I believe you would not be far off. Christianity is modernizing quickly in the grand scheme of things.

From without, not from the Vatican. Oh, the commands and reformations come from the Vatican, but they do not birth from there.

Most Christians don't look to the Vatican for instruction on their daily lives, however alot of Muslims do look to Mecca for that.

 

[High_Gravity]

You keep telling yourself that about the Crusades. Who entered the Middle East? Why? To respond to indigents who were from where?

Certainly not Britain. Certainly not France. Certainly not Spain or Italy. A lot of converts from the Cross search...

Which Crusade was that? All of them? Do you know how many there were and that the Crusades were multi-generational and from many different countries throughout the years?

They were all for the Cross?

It's not a simple thing to research for truth because there are a lot of lies out there.

For all the beliefs. They hide from their truths.

Who was doing the invading, and has been since the invention of islam? Can you name any islamic community today that can support itself? Can you name any islamic community today that is not a rathole and a place where people want to emmigrate?
Yes the Crusades were multi-generational, how long will we have to "tolerate" "jihad". How many generations will that claim?

Dubai, Bahrain etc. are actually pretty nice however the rules for immigration are strict, they do not take in refugees and only let foreigners work there on strict visas. Turkey is alright too, although I would not want to live there.

 

[logical4u]

I would like to think the huge majority of Christians learned from those mistakes and would not presume to repeat such offenses.

I believe you would not be far off. Christianity is modernizing quickly in the grand scheme of things.

From without, not from the Vatican. Oh, the commands and reformations come from the Vatican, but they do not birth from there.

How is islam "modernizing"?

 

[Sunni Man]

I wonder if Islam wants its people to know all its history and how much independent study of the Qu'ran and other religious texts are encouraged?

Study of religious texts in Islam is highly encouraged.

In fact, most Mosques have an in house library and a book store.

The Quran mentions the Torah of the Jews and the Gospels of the Christians.

Which is an incentive for muslims to learn about the Bible.

Thus the average Muslim is fairly well versed in both Christian and Judaic theology.


Whereas, muslims who come to the U.S. are surprised that Americans know basically zero about Islam.

(except what they learn from Fox News)

And are equally surprised how little the average Christian knows about their own religion.

 

[Foxfyre]

I wonder if Islam wants its people to know all its history and how much independent study of the Qu'ran and other religious texts are encouraged?

Study of religious texts in Islam is highly encouraged.

In fact, most Mosques have an in house library and a book store.

The Quran mentions the Torah of the Jews and the Gospels of the Christians.

Which is an incentive for muslims to learn about the Bible.

Thus the average Muslim is fairly well versed in both Christian and Judaic theology.


Whereas, muslims who come to the U.S. are surprised that Americans know basically zero about Islam.

(except what they learn from Fox News)

And are equally surprised how little the average Christian knows about their own religion.

So this is why contracts are put out on those who dare to criticize or comment negatively on or make fun of Mohammed? This is why western nations deemed 'disrespectful' to Islam are targeted for terrorist attacks?

How do you square that with the 'enlightenment' and 'intellectual encouragement' you report?

 

[Ropey]

You keep telling yourself that about the Crusades. Who entered the Middle East? Why? To respond to indigents who were from where?

Certainly not Britain. Certainly not France. Certainly not Spain or Italy. A lot of converts from the Cross search...

Which Crusade was that? All of them? Do you know how many there were and that the Crusades were multi-generational and from many different countries throughout the years?

They were all for the Cross?

It's not a simple thing to research for truth because there are a lot of lies out there.

For all the beliefs. They hide from their truths.

Who was doing the invading, and has been since the invention of islam? Can you name any islamic community today that can support itself? Can you name any islamic community today that is not a rathole and a place where people want to emmigrate?
Yes the Crusades were multi-generational, how long will we have to "tolerate" "jihad". How many generations will that claim?

When governments stand up, things get done. When they don't, what happens is understandable. If there is a vacuum.

It gets filled.

Canada tossed off Sharia in an entirety and it didn't seem all that hard from here.

From where you live??

 

[Sunni Man]

So this is why contracts are put out on those who dare to criticize or comment negatively on or make fun of Mohammed? This is why western nations deemed 'disrespectful' to Islam are targeted for terrorist attacks?

How do you square that with the 'enlightenment' and 'intellectual encouragement' you report?

What does that have to do with what I posted?

I never said anything about enlightenment or the other issues you are now bringing up?

All I said was that most muslims are aware of what the Torah and the Bible teaches.

And are encouraged to learn about Christianity and Judiasm; not just the Quran.

 

[Foxfyre]

So this is why contracts are put out on those who dare to criticize or comment negatively on or make fun of Mohammed? This is why western nations deemed 'disrespectful' to Islam are targeted for terrorist attacks?

How do you square that with the 'enlightenment' and 'intellectual encouragement' you report?

What does that have to do with what I posted?

I never said anything about enlightenment or the other issues you are now bringing up?

All I said was that most muslims are aware of what the Torah and the Bible teaches.

And are encouraged to learn about Christianity and Judiasm; not just the Quran.

The premise however was how much are Muslims encouraged to look at the whole history of the figures upon which their religion is founded? Many of us Christians and I imagine many Jews do read up on Islam and I know, as part of my religious education, I took an entire course on the Qu'ran as well as other Islamic religious documents.

Does Islam encourage individual and independent reading of the texts and allow the readers to interpret them as the 'spirit' guides? Or is it generally guided study? That part I'll admit I'm a bit fuzzy on.

Those of us who have studied some of your leaders are aware of the good they did, the right sounding things they came up with, and also the less commendable, even indefensible parts of the biographies. We do the same with our own leaders. Does Islam?

The reason I brought up the 'contracts' and terrorist attacks is that this is the more visible Islam that much of the world sees. Insult or make fun of Mohammed at grave personal risk. It isn't allowed. Yet we Christians and Jews can have fun with ours with impunity.

So which group is more tolerant? More enlightened? Better educated? I think it is all fodder for a good discussion.

 

[Sunni Man]

The reason I brought up the 'contracts' and terrorist attacks is that this is the more visible Islam that much of the world sees. Insult or make fun of Mohammed at grave personal risk. It isn't allowed. Yet we Christians and Jews can have fun with ours with impunity.

We think Christians have become neutered wimps.

You claim Jesus is God.

But you allow people to blaspheme Jesus and Mary with urine or manure by people who call it art.


We muslims are not going to stand by and have our religious figures mocked or abused.

If this is was the West considers "enlightenment".

We want No part of it.

 

[Sunni Man]

Does Islam encourage individual and independent reading of the texts and allow the readers to interpret them as the 'spirit' guides? Or is it generally guided study? That part I'll admit I'm a bit fuzzy on.

We take the Quran literally; it is very plain in what it says.


As for instruction, it's the same learning the Bible in Christianity.

You can go to a religious school and learn from scholars.

Or just stay at home and read the Quran when you have time.

There is No forced study program as many in the West believe.

 

[Foxfyre]

The reason I brought up the 'contracts' and terrorist attacks is that this is the more visible Islam that much of the world sees. Insult or make fun of Mohammed at grave personal risk. It isn't allowed. Yet we Christians and Jews can have fun with ours with impunity.

We think Christians have become neutered wimps.

You claim Jesus is God.

But you allow people to blaspheme Jesus and Mary with urine or manure by people who call it art.


We muslims are not going to stand by and have our religious figures mocked or abused.

If this is was the West considers "enlightenment".

We want No part of it.

We allow--do not make illegal--the trashing of our God because He needs no defense from us. He is God and we are but mortals with no power in comparison to that he wields. However allowing people their unalienable rights to express their opinion or express their artisitic impressions is not the same thing as condoning or approving. Our God gave us the unalienable right to think and hold whatever opinions we think and hold. And that is more important than religious laws made by men or our feelings when stupid or hateful people malign what we believe. When people are not allowed to see it differently without being punished, they have no freedom at all.

So I consider it more enlightened to respect the freedoms our God allows us than I consider it enlightened to behead or bomb or stone or cane or shoot or otherwise punish those who think differently than we do.

And since you obviously think your way the more honorable one, it does call into question whether your 'literal' interpretation of the Qu-ran is allowed to be different from anybody else's 'literal' interpretation.

 

[Ropey]

I wonder if Islam wants its people to know all its history and how much independent study of the Qu'ran and other religious texts are encouraged?

I would say, at this time, no.