More overrated: JFK or Reagan?

[American Horse]

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, if JFK had followed the advice of the military brass, Senate and Congressional leaders, and most of his cabinet, much of America would be a smoking hole and there would be no Reagan to rate.

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Throughout the 13-day Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy was under relentless pressure from LeMay and nearly his entire national-security circle to "fry" Cuba, in the Air Force chief's memorable language. But J.F.K., whose only key support in the increasingly tense Cabinet Room meetings came from his brother Bobby and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, kept searching for a nonmilitary solution. When Kennedy, assiduously working the back channels to the Kremlin, finally succeeded in cutting a deal with Khrushchev, the world survived "the most dangerous moment in human history," in Schlesinger's words. But no one at the time knew just how dangerous. Years later, attending the 40th anniversary of the crisis at a conference in Havana, Schlesinger, Sorensen and McNamara were stunned to learn that if U.S. forces had attacked Cuba, Russian commanders on the island were authorized to respond with tactical and strategic nuclear missiles. The Joint Chiefs had assured Kennedy during the crisis that "no nuclear warheads were in Cuba at the time," Sorensen grimly noted. "They were wrong." If Kennedy had bowed to his military advisers' pressure, a vast swath of the urban U.S. within missile range of the Soviet installations in Cuba could have been reduced to radioactive rubble.

Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

We would need a primary source for that, if you mean that he was suggesting using Nuclear weapons on the missile sites. Lemay was a fool, and that was evident to the president.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Reagan is highly overrated by conservatives. They hold him up as the ultimate example of conservatism when in fact he would barely be tolerated by the right of today.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Don't you think it is strange before the 80's you could buy a home, and easily pay it off?
How about sending your child to college?
Buying a car?
And before the 80's people did this on one income.

I didn't grow up in Idaho, where I was born thanks to Reagan and the "great" economy in the 80's. The driving force for the economy in the town I was born in, was a factory. When we left in 85's the town was dead and my parents had to take a loss on our house. We then moved to Spokane, which has been on a steady decline since the 80's, thanks to most of the factories closing.

Unbelievable!......Just seriously unfuckin'believable!

LMAO!

 

[manu1959]

I look at it this way...the more time tha tpasses, the more positive things about Reagan, his foresight, his integrity come to the fore.

The more time passes, the fewer positive things about JFK come forward, the more unsavory dealings of his come to the fore, and we see he really had very little integrity whatsoever.

So I'd say Kennedy is overrated. Though most people don't even do that with him anymore. He's sort of fading into the limelight, while Reagan is gaining prestige.

You are right about Kennedy but wrong about Reagan. Reagan destroyed this US economy, and because of his admin, is one of the biggest reasons why there are no factory jobs anymore. The only circles that talk about his integrity, are the ones you run in.

how did reagan do this exactly.....

 

[manu1959]

Reagan is highly overrated by conservatives. They hold him up as the ultimate example of conservatism when in fact he would barely be tolerated by the right of today.

the right of today isn't conservative.....

 

[Bfgrn]

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, if JFK had followed the advice of the military brass, Senate and Congressional leaders, and most of his cabinet, much of America would be a smoking hole and there would be no Reagan to rate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Throughout the 13-day Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy was under relentless pressure from LeMay and nearly his entire national-security circle to "fry" Cuba, in the Air Force chief's memorable language. But J.F.K., whose only key support in the increasingly tense Cabinet Room meetings came from his brother Bobby and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, kept searching for a nonmilitary solution. When Kennedy, assiduously working the back channels to the Kremlin, finally succeeded in cutting a deal with Khrushchev, the world survived "the most dangerous moment in human history," in Schlesinger's words. But no one at the time knew just how dangerous. Years later, attending the 40th anniversary of the crisis at a conference in Havana, Schlesinger, Sorensen and McNamara were stunned to learn that if U.S. forces had attacked Cuba, Russian commanders on the island were authorized to respond with tactical and strategic nuclear missiles. The Joint Chiefs had assured Kennedy during the crisis that "no nuclear warheads were in Cuba at the time," Sorensen grimly noted. "They were wrong." If Kennedy had bowed to his military advisers' pressure, a vast swath of the urban U.S. within missile range of the Soviet installations in Cuba could have been reduced to radioactive rubble.

Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

We would need a primary source for that, if you mean that he was suggesting using Nuclear weapons on the missile sites. Lemay was a fool, and that was evident to the president.

Kennedy never again trusted his generals and espionage chiefs after the 1961 fiasco in Cuba, and he became a master at artfully deflecting their militant counsel. "After the Bay of Pigs, Kennedy had contempt for the Joint Chiefs," historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr. recalled over drinks in the hushed, stately rooms of New York City's Century Club not long before his death. "I remember going into his office in the spring of 1961, where he waved some cables at me from General Lemnitzer, who was then in Laos on an inspection tour. And Kennedy said, 'If it hadn't been for the Bay of Pigs, I might have been impressed by this.' I think J.F.K.'s war-hero status allowed him to defy the Joint Chiefs. He dismissed them as a bunch of old men. He thought Lemnitzer was a dope."

President Kennedy never thought much of the CIA either, in part because he and his indispensable brother, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, became convinced that the agency was not just incompetent but also a rogue operation. After the Bay of Pigs—and particularly the Cuban missile crisis—the Kennedys seemed more concerned with defusing Cuba as a political issue at home, where it was a rallying cry on the right, than with actually enforcing a regime change. The darker efforts against Castro—the sinister CIA plots to assassinate him in partnership with the Mafia—began before the Kennedy Administration and continued after it ended. Robert Kennedy—a legendary crusader against organized crime—thought he had shut down the murder plots after two CIA officials sheepishly informed him of the agency's pact with the Mob in May 1962. But there was much that the Kennedys did not know about the agency's more shadowy operations.

"I thought and I still feel that the CIA did wet work on its own," says John Seigenthaler, Robert Kennedy's administrative aide at the Justice Department and later publisher of the Tennessean. "They were way too in thrall to 007... We were caught in the reality of the cold war, and the agency obviously had a role to play. But I don't think the Kennedys believed you could trust much of what they said. We were trying to find our way out of the cold war, but the CIA certainly didn't want to."

Nor did President Kennedy have a firm hand on the Pentagon. "Certainly we did not control the Joint Chiefs of Staff," said Schlesinger, looking back at the Kennedy White House. It was a chilling observation, considering the throbbing nuclear tensions of the period. The former White House aide revealed that J.F.K. was less afraid of Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev's ordering a surprise attack than he was "that something would go wrong in a Dr. Strangelove kind of way"—with a politically unstable U.S. general snapping and launching World War III.

Kennedy was particularly alarmed by his trigger-happy Air Force chief, cigar-chomping General Curtis LeMay, who firmly believed the U.S. should unleash a pre-emptive nuclear broadside against Russia while America still enjoyed massive arms superiority.

Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I know a retired secret service agent who has absolutely nothing good to say about Reagan. Says that he was a two-faced lying phony who wouldn't give anyone the time of day unless he somehow stood to gain from the relationship. Conversely, he has nothing bad to say about Bush Sr. Says he was a true gentleman who honestly cared about everyone, right down to the indigent pan-handler.

Bush Sr. is one of the most under-rated presidents of our time. Easily.

As to the OP: Both were drastically over-rated, though both do have some pretty incredible things that you can lay to their credit. JFK's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis defused WWIII and laid the groundwork for how things would end when you get right down to it. Reagan actually closed out the Cold War and was willing to work with Gorbachev to ensure that the Cold War ended Cold. It could have easily ended with a nuclear exchange if either man was unwilling to negotiate at the end.

All in all though, I'd have to go with Reagan as the more overrated though. This is solely because of the Reagan cult that has arisen on the Right with the ridiculous "What Would Reagan Do?" T-shirts at the Conservative websites and Hannity/Rush/Beck's obsession with Reagan that's sprung up. Hailing Reagan as a Conservative hero requires that you pretty much outright ignore 75% of the stuff he did, his expansion of government, his ballooning of the debt, etc. That Cons can, with a straight face, do that and lift up Reagan as a Conservative Patron Saint just shows you how ridiculous this New Conservative movement is.

That isn't to say that JFK wasn't an ass though. He's certainly overrated. Its just as time has passed the cult of JFK has given way to a more sober reflection on his Presidency making him a little less overrated.

I don't think enough credit is being given to Gorbachev. He was very interested in capitalism and our culture. He enjoyed the things the US had to offer. If Reagan had been around with Krushchev, for example, the dialog would have been a lot different.

We barely avoided the Cold War ending very very very hot. A different President, a different General Secretary and the Cold War has a decidedly less happy ending. Gorbachev gets a great deal of credit, deservedly, for being willing to take a step out there and admit things weren't working and change had to come. Reagan gets his fair share of credit for recognizing and opportunity to end the "Evil Empire" (his words) via negotiation instead of nuclear exchange.

Reagan could have easily blown off Gorbachev and let the USSR descend into chaos all on its own. That route would have almost certainly led to the Coup against Gorbachev being successful, and from there almost certainly to a nuclear exchange.

On the other hand, if Gorbachev had been unwilling to take that first step, then it's likely you'd have seen a grim regime willing to take us with them on the way out. That's the end of everyone right there.

JFK's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis is similar in the peril involved.

 

[jillian]

I know a retired secret service agent who has absolutely nothing good to say about Reagan. Says that he was a two-faced lying phony who wouldn't give anyone the time of day unless he somehow stood to gain from the relationship. Conversely, he has nothing bad to say about Bush Sr. Says he was a true gentleman who honestly cared about everyone, right down to the indigent pan-handler.

Interesting. I heard the opposite about Reagan. I heard that in person he was the nicest guy in the world who would give you the shirt off his back....

and then sign into law a bill to cut your social security.

And that's not consistent with the "two-faced phony" allegation how?

i suppose you can look at it that way. but the way it was put to me was that he had a particular view of what government should do. but on a personal level, he believed in being more generous. that's actually consistent with the (not so) compassionate conservative pov. but it doesn't mean he was a bad person, which is what calling him a "two-faced phony" implies...at least in my world.

 

[manu1959]

Interesting. I heard the opposite about Reagan. I heard that in person he was the nicest guy in the world who would give you the shirt off his back....

and then sign into law a bill to cut your social security.

And that's not consistent with the "two-faced phony" allegation how?

i suppose you can look at it that way. but the way it was put to me was that he had a particular view of what government should do. but on a personal level, he believed in being more generous. that's actually consistent with the (not so) compassionate conservative pov. but it doesn't mean he was a bad person, which is what calling him a "two-faced phony" implies...at least in my world.

reagan was once a raving liberal then became a raving conservative....being conflicted was par for the course....

both he and jfk are overated....they both had good moments and bad moments....same as every president...

 

[AllieBaba]

I look at it this way...the more time tha tpasses, the more positive things about Reagan, his foresight, his integrity come to the fore.

The more time passes, the fewer positive things about JFK come forward, the more unsavory dealings of his come to the fore, and we see he really had very little integrity whatsoever.

So I'd say Kennedy is overrated. Though most people don't even do that with him anymore. He's sort of fading into the limelight, while Reagan is gaining prestige.

You are right about Kennedy but wrong about Reagan. Reagan destroyed this US economy, and because of his admin, is one of the biggest reasons why there are no factory jobs anymore. The only circles that talk about his integrity, are the ones you run in.

how did reagan do this exactly.....

She continues to be asked to provide some actual examples and evidence. And so far has failed miserably. she's just blathering what she's heard on internet message boards. Luser has no concept of what the situation really was, or exactly what sort of president Reagan was.

 

[manu1959]

You are right about Kennedy but wrong about Reagan. Reagan destroyed this US economy, and because of his admin, is one of the biggest reasons why there are no factory jobs anymore. The only circles that talk about his integrity, are the ones you run in.

how did reagan do this exactly.....

She continues to be asked to provide some actual examples and evidence. And so far has failed miserably. she's just blathering what she's heard on internet message boards. Luser has no concept of what the situation really was, or exactly what sort of president Reagan was.

when people say the president cause the economy to tank or manufacturing to disapear one would assume they could cite the legislation written by the congress and signed into law or vetoed by the president which lead to the result they cite....

which makes me wonder why the same mfr job loss occured in england during this same period....it would seem two 'great' nations failed to react to some global mfr move which "put them out of business" ....

 

[code1211]

IMO both are WILDLY overrated, but which one is more overrated?

What say you?

Nollo contendre: JFK.

 

[Chris]

Reagan overrated.
Kennedy underrated.

Exactly.

Kennedy sent in troops to desegregate the schools in the South, signed the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, faced down the Russians in Cuba, started the Peace Corps and the Alliance for Progress, and sent us on our way to the moon.

Reagan lowered taxes for the rich and doubled the National Debt.

 

[ABikerSailor]

And that's not consistent with the "two-faced phony" allegation how?

i suppose you can look at it that way. but the way it was put to me was that he had a particular view of what government should do. but on a personal level, he believed in being more generous. that's actually consistent with the (not so) compassionate conservative pov. but it doesn't mean he was a bad person, which is what calling him a "two-faced phony" implies...at least in my world.

reagan was once a raving liberal then became a raving conservative....being conflicted was par for the course....

both he and jfk are overated....they both had good moments and bad moments....same as every president...

Really? Not to pick a fight Manu, but exactly WHERE was the good in Jr's presidency?

Other than when he left the White House I mean.

 

[Defiant1]

IMO both are WILDLY overrated, but which one is more overrated?

What say you?

JFK. He left before his term was up.

 

[ABikerSailor]

IMO both are WILDLY overrated, but which one is more overrated?

What say you?

JFK. He left before his term was up.

Well, using the same logic Palin is wildly overrated, yet the fringe right continues to shower her with relevance and cash.

Palin QUIT. Kennedy was assassinated. Big difference.

 

[Sallow]

Reagan was over-rated.

And he should have been impeached for Iran/Contra. That was a direct and unmitigated violation of the United States Constitution.

 

[Rozman]

No doubt JFK over rated.
Reagan.....tremendously underated

 

[elvis]

jfk...underrated.
reagan...VASTLY overrated.

and you're VASTLY partisan.

 

[elvis]

I think Kennedy gets a lot of reverence because of how bad his successor was.