More "freedom" going on - doesnt rate a mention

[Coyote]

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Yes...their nuts don't shoot up schools....and they have been lucky last year....They average one mass shooting every ten years.....and had their last one in 2010 showing that their gun control laws didn't change their rate of mass shootings...the British culture hasn't created mass shooters......that too is changing, they had 2 attempts last year....one was stopped by the police after the idiot posted about his attack on social media, the other involved a kid who brought a shotgun to school....and changed his mind, calling the police on himself...

Plain dumb luck is not gun control working...doofus.

Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia

The Cumbria shootings occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England.

Their gun murder rate went up after they banned guns and never went below where it was before they banned guns.....there was no change after banning and confiscating guns......

Rifles and shotguns....for the wealthy......handguns are banned...and are being used by criminals today in Britain


Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.

----

He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.

-----

Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.

-----

Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.

He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.

Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”

Yet they have far far far fewer mass shootings then we do.

And far far far fewer gun related homicides.

Which has nothing to do with their gun control laws.......it is their culture.....not their gun control laws that have stopped murder.....

What part of, there gun crime is increasing, are you not getting? They are not comitting murder, yet....but that too is changing.....their culture can no longer civilize their young males....and they are importing violent 3rd world males to do the killing British nationals just won't do...

Now you are getting into some very subjective territory.

What is subjective......their criminals have guns....their gun crime rate across the entire country keeps going up.....27% just last year and up 42% in London......but their murder rate hasn't grown...that means the criminals are not crossing the line from robbery and rape and murdering their victims..they are still using guns.....

And the age of the gun criminal is going down, as is the age of the victim...so we are going to see gun murder going up there....

Gun homicides have gone down. Gun injuries have gone down. Frankly - that is what is important isn't it?

 

[2aguy]

No...dipshit....I showed that Americans owning guns does not increase the gun crime rate....then I also linked to research that shows that Americans who own and also carry guns decrease the violent crime rate...

And I linked to research that showed no correlation between gun ownership and a decrease in violent crime and infact - research showing a correlation between an increase in gun ownership and an increase in gun related deaths (not necessarily violent crime - but deaths). But you claim it's from "rabid anti-gun nuts" while expecting me to accept research from "rabid pro gun nuts".

And again, you are running away and trying to avoid the fact....that the entire foundational argument of the anti gun extremism you follow........is wrong......and has no basis in facts, statistics or reality......

I'm not running away from anything dude. I'm here talking with you now.

As more Americans own and carry guns....our gun murder rate went down, our gun crime rate went down, our violent crime rate went down....

As more Americans own and carry cellphones....our gun murder rate went down, our gun crime rate went down, our violent crime rate went down....

As an additional point...as Britain did the exact opposite...banned and confiscated guns...their gun crime rate went up, their violent crime rate went up....

It's extremely difficult to compare crime statistics across countries....but answer this: Who has a hire rate of gun deaths per capita - the US or Britain?

As more Americans own and carry cellphones....our gun murder rate went down, our gun crime rate went down, our violent crime rate went down....

Nice try...that isn't the argument you anti gunners make.....you state over and over and you have done it here as well....

More guns = more gun crime......

And 21 years have shown this is not true...it isn't based in facts or reality....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

How many gun related homicides in the US?

How many in Britain?

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

 

[Coyote]

How many gun related homicides in the US?

How many in Britain?

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Yes.....their gun murder rate went up...

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent

According to the tablees here (which go from 1992-2016)- there was a decline then a big rise then a big decline indicating that there are probably other factors involved as well. That decline btw went to almost the lowest number of gun deaths reported.

Find the table going back farther.......and notice....in your own table...the fatal firearm injury data...that you provided...shows that their gun control laws did not lower their fatal firearm injury rates......it had no bearing on it....and gun crime is on the rise.....

The table on fatal firearm injuries also showed a reduction from a high of 96 in 2001 to 26 in 2016 .

 

[2aguy]

Yes...their nuts don't shoot up schools....and they have been lucky last year....They average one mass shooting every ten years.....and had their last one in 2010 showing that their gun control laws didn't change their rate of mass shootings...the British culture hasn't created mass shooters......that too is changing, they had 2 attempts last year....one was stopped by the police after the idiot posted about his attack on social media, the other involved a kid who brought a shotgun to school....and changed his mind, calling the police on himself...

Plain dumb luck is not gun control working...doofus.

Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia

The Cumbria shootings occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England.

Their gun murder rate went up after they banned guns and never went below where it was before they banned guns.....there was no change after banning and confiscating guns......

Rifles and shotguns....for the wealthy......handguns are banned...and are being used by criminals today in Britain


Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.

----

He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.

-----

Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.

-----

Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.

He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.

Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”

Yet they have far far far fewer mass shootings then we do.

And far far far fewer gun related homicides.

Which has nothing to do with their gun control laws.......it is their culture.....not their gun control laws that have stopped murder.....

What part of, there gun crime is increasing, are you not getting? They are not comitting murder, yet....but that too is changing.....their culture can no longer civilize their young males....and they are importing violent 3rd world males to do the killing British nationals just won't do...

Now you are getting into some very subjective territory.

What is subjective......their criminals have guns....their gun crime rate across the entire country keeps going up.....27% just last year and up 42% in London......but their murder rate hasn't grown...that means the criminals are not crossing the line from robbery and rape and murdering their victims..they are still using guns.....

And the age of the gun criminal is going down, as is the age of the victim...so we are going to see gun murder going up there....

Gun homicides have gone down. Gun injuries have gone down. Frankly - that is what is important isn't it?

Gun homicides returned to the exact same level they were at before they confiscated guns...showing their gun control laws didn't do anything...

While in the U.S......More Americans now own and actually carry guns...and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our violent crime rate went down 72%....

You can claim Americans owning guns didn't lower those rates......but You Can't Claim that Americans owning more guns....carrying more guns...increased our gun crime rate...which the exact opposite of Britain......and I have shown you the research that shows people carrying guns did help to lower the violent crime rate here....

 

[2aguy]

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Yes.....their gun murder rate went up...

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent

According to the tablees here (which go from 1992-2016)- there was a decline then a big rise then a big decline indicating that there are probably other factors involved as well. That decline btw went to almost the lowest number of gun deaths reported.

Find the table going back farther.......and notice....in your own table...the fatal firearm injury data...that you provided...shows that their gun control laws did not lower their fatal firearm injury rates......it had no bearing on it....and gun crime is on the rise.....

The table on fatal firearm injuries also showed a reduction from a high of 96 in 2001 to 26 in 2016 .

Yeah....show us the numbers from before 1996.......because you have to show that 26 is a number that didn't happen before they banned guns...and only happened after they banned guns......their gun death numbers were up, 14 years after the ban...and their gun crime numbers are going up....

 

[Aba Incieni]

Look at all these words.

If the bad guy is bigger than me, I want a gun.

 

[Coyote]

And I linked to research that showed no correlation between gun ownership and a decrease in violent crime and infact - research showing a correlation between an increase in gun ownership and an increase in gun related deaths (not necessarily violent crime - but deaths). But you claim it's from "rabid anti-gun nuts" while expecting me to accept research from "rabid pro gun nuts".

I'm not running away from anything dude. I'm here talking with you now.

As more Americans own and carry cellphones....our gun murder rate went down, our gun crime rate went down, our violent crime rate went down....

It's extremely difficult to compare crime statistics across countries....but answer this: Who has a hire rate of gun deaths per capita - the US or Britain?

As more Americans own and carry cellphones....our gun murder rate went down, our gun crime rate went down, our violent crime rate went down....

Nice try...that isn't the argument you anti gunners make.....you state over and over and you have done it here as well....

More guns = more gun crime......

And 21 years have shown this is not true...it isn't based in facts or reality....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

How many gun related homicides in the US?

How many in Britain?

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

 

[2aguy]

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Yes.....their gun murder rate went up...

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent

According to the tablees here (which go from 1992-2016)- there was a decline then a big rise then a big decline indicating that there are probably other factors involved as well. That decline btw went to almost the lowest number of gun deaths reported.

Find the table going back farther.......and notice....in your own table...the fatal firearm injury data...that you provided...shows that their gun control laws did not lower their fatal firearm injury rates......it had no bearing on it....and gun crime is on the rise.....

The table on fatal firearm injuries also showed a reduction from a high of 96 in 2001 to 26 in 2016 .

And now the homicide rate in Britain....the same level it was at in 1990......7 years before the ban and confiscation of guns...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DJ-KA2Whh...-12-22+at++Saturday,+December+22,+9.26+PM.png

 

[Aba Incieni]

As more Americans own and carry cellphones....our gun murder rate went down, our gun crime rate went down, our violent crime rate went down....

Nice try...that isn't the argument you anti gunners make.....you state over and over and you have done it here as well....

More guns = more gun crime......

And 21 years have shown this is not true...it isn't based in facts or reality....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

How many gun related homicides in the US?

How many in Britain?

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

It would be even more accurate and enlightening to compare gun homicide rates by gun owners per capita from those two countries.

 

[2aguy]

As more Americans own and carry cellphones....our gun murder rate went down, our gun crime rate went down, our violent crime rate went down....

Nice try...that isn't the argument you anti gunners make.....you state over and over and you have done it here as well....

More guns = more gun crime......

And 21 years have shown this is not true...it isn't based in facts or reality....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

How many gun related homicides in the US?

How many in Britain?

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

Yeah...see.... A bit more complicated, and you won't admit that their gun control laws are not lowering their gun crime rate...on an island, in a country with a homogenous population.........

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again.

I keep telling you that their gun control laws have nothing to do with their gun murder rate.....it is the culture of their criminals...they don't commit murder as often or easily as our inner city gang members do...

Their gun crime rate is going up....they are cutting police resources.....as you just quoted my links......and their criminals who are doing the shooting and the getting shot, are getting younger....which means their gun murder rate is about to go up.....

They are where we were going into the 1960s before our violent crime and gun crime rates spiked...

 

[Coyote]

How many gun related homicides in the US?

How many in Britain?

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

Yeah...see.... A bit more complicated, and you won't admit that their gun control laws are not lowering their gun crime rate...on an island, in a country with a homogenous population.........

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again.

I keep telling you that their gun control laws have nothing to do with their gun murder rate.....it is the culture of their criminals...they don't commit murder as often or easily as our inner city gang members do...

Their gun crime rate is going up....they are cutting police resources.....as you just quoted my links......and their criminals who are doing the shooting and the getting shot, are getting younger....which means their gun murder rate is about to go up.....

They are where we were going into the 1960s before our violent crime and gun crime rates spiked...

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

 

[2aguy]

just an impression-------more guns---more gun ACCIDENTS----also---guns are a
very convenient means for suicide-----CONVENIENT-------but there are MANY
other ways

Yeah...not so much.....we have close to 600 million guns in private hands and now over 16.3 million people with permits to carry their guns.......and here are the accidental death rates from 2016...just released...

Gravity kills more people accidentally than guns do...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

poisoning......58,335

falling.......34,673

suffocation...6,610

drowning......3,786

The funny thing is...when I use those same statistics to show that you are much more likely to get hit by lightening then killed by terrorists I get totally slammed.

And it's important to note that you are not very likely to become a victim of gun violence. But like terrorism - that doesn't mean you should ignore it - or worse, actively prevent research into it. Or try to inact some measures to reduce it. Any time something is recommended - they start screetching they're coming to take our guns or they are going to ban guns.

Yes....we know how anti gunners work......we have a historical record of gun banning and confiscation from around the world and in this country....Germany, Britain, Australia, Canada, New York, California........they first registered guns and then banned and confiscated them.....

And none of the measures you push will do anything to stop crime or mass shootings.......but you keep pushing them...

Who are "you anti-gunners"?

I'm trying to discuss this RATIONALLY - not emotionally or fearfully as you are now doing.

I do not advocate the banning of all guns. How many times do I need to say that? Not even most guns.

I advocate common sense measures to reduce some of the gun related mortality.
- fund research into it
- register guns when bought
- background checks
- some sort of basic test of proficiency and safety (like Norway has)
- mandatory waiting periods (reduce impulsive violence or suicide)
- bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.

Like I said - common sense, and it leaves thousands of kinds of guns people can legally buy.

Here are my gun control measures...they work, and they actually target violent criminals, leaving law abiding gun owners alone, they require no new laws, they require no new paperwork, we can already do them.....

1) If you use a gun for a crime, you go to prison for 30-life.

2) If you are a felon who cannot buy, own, or carry a gun, and are caught with a gun....you go to prison for 30-life.

3) The above two policies will be read to all convicted individuals at their trial, when they are admitted to jail, to prison and if they are released after serving time for lesser crimes, when they meet with their parole officer.

That is how you will reduce gun crime.....

 

[Coyote]

just an impression-------more guns---more gun ACCIDENTS----also---guns are a
very convenient means for suicide-----CONVENIENT-------but there are MANY
other ways

Yeah...not so much.....we have close to 600 million guns in private hands and now over 16.3 million people with permits to carry their guns.......and here are the accidental death rates from 2016...just released...

Gravity kills more people accidentally than guns do...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

poisoning......58,335

falling.......34,673

suffocation...6,610

drowning......3,786

The funny thing is...when I use those same statistics to show that you are much more likely to get hit by lightening then killed by terrorists I get totally slammed.

And it's important to note that you are not very likely to become a victim of gun violence. But like terrorism - that doesn't mean you should ignore it - or worse, actively prevent research into it. Or try to inact some measures to reduce it. Any time something is recommended - they start screetching they're coming to take our guns or they are going to ban guns.

Yes....we know how anti gunners work......we have a historical record of gun banning and confiscation from around the world and in this country....Germany, Britain, Australia, Canada, New York, California........they first registered guns and then banned and confiscated them.....

And none of the measures you push will do anything to stop crime or mass shootings.......but you keep pushing them...

Who are "you anti-gunners"?

I'm trying to discuss this RATIONALLY - not emotionally or fearfully as you are now doing.

I do not advocate the banning of all guns. How many times do I need to say that? Not even most guns.

I advocate common sense measures to reduce some of the gun related mortality.
- fund research into it
- register guns when bought
- background checks
- some sort of basic test of proficiency and safety (like Norway has)
- mandatory waiting periods (reduce impulsive violence or suicide)
- bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.

Like I said - common sense, and it leaves thousands of kinds of guns people can legally buy.

Here are my gun control measures...they work, and they actually target violent criminals, leaving law abiding gun owners alone, they require no new laws, they require no new paperwork, we can already do them.....

1) If you use a gun for a crime, you go to prison for 30-life.

2) If you are a felon who cannot buy, own, or carry a gun, and are caught with a gun....you go to prison for 30-life.

3) The above two policies will be read to all convicted individuals at their trial, when they are admitted to jail, to prison and if they are released after serving time for lesser crimes, when they meet with their parole officer.

That is how you will reduce gun crime.....

It does nothing to prevent crime. It only reacts after something horrible has taken place. People don't think about consequences when committing a crime.

 

[2aguy]

Again....you hide behind the homicide statistic......which has no bearing on gun control laws......since the United States had increased gun ownership, and decreasing gun crime and gun murder.....

Britain banned and confiscated guns....let me repeat that since you are slow.....Britain banned and confiscated guns, doing the exact opposite of the United States...

And What happened?

Their gun murder rate went up....their gun crime rate keeps going up...up 27% just last year as an island nation, and up 42% in their capitol city of London.....and their violent crime rate is going up so much, London is more violent than the United States....all of Britain is more violent than the United States.......

They did what you believe...they banned and confiscated guns....and it increased their gun violence...

The only thing...their criminals are behind ours....they don't commit murder as often or as easily....so you cling to that, even as more gun crime happens in Britain..which means that eventually, their gun murder rate is going to sky rocket.......then you will have nothing...

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

Yeah...see.... A bit more complicated, and you won't admit that their gun control laws are not lowering their gun crime rate...on an island, in a country with a homogenous population.........

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again.

I keep telling you that their gun control laws have nothing to do with their gun murder rate.....it is the culture of their criminals...they don't commit murder as often or easily as our inner city gang members do...

Their gun crime rate is going up....they are cutting police resources.....as you just quoted my links......and their criminals who are doing the shooting and the getting shot, are getting younger....which means their gun murder rate is about to go up.....

They are where we were going into the 1960s before our violent crime and gun crime rates spiked...

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
-----

Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

 

[2aguy]

Yeah...not so much.....we have close to 600 million guns in private hands and now over 16.3 million people with permits to carry their guns.......and here are the accidental death rates from 2016...just released...

Gravity kills more people accidentally than guns do...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

poisoning......58,335

falling.......34,673

suffocation...6,610

drowning......3,786

The funny thing is...when I use those same statistics to show that you are much more likely to get hit by lightening then killed by terrorists I get totally slammed.

And it's important to note that you are not very likely to become a victim of gun violence. But like terrorism - that doesn't mean you should ignore it - or worse, actively prevent research into it. Or try to inact some measures to reduce it. Any time something is recommended - they start screetching they're coming to take our guns or they are going to ban guns.

Yes....we know how anti gunners work......we have a historical record of gun banning and confiscation from around the world and in this country....Germany, Britain, Australia, Canada, New York, California........they first registered guns and then banned and confiscated them.....

And none of the measures you push will do anything to stop crime or mass shootings.......but you keep pushing them...

Who are "you anti-gunners"?

I'm trying to discuss this RATIONALLY - not emotionally or fearfully as you are now doing.

I do not advocate the banning of all guns. How many times do I need to say that? Not even most guns.

I advocate common sense measures to reduce some of the gun related mortality.
- fund research into it
- register guns when bought
- background checks
- some sort of basic test of proficiency and safety (like Norway has)
- mandatory waiting periods (reduce impulsive violence or suicide)
- bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.

Like I said - common sense, and it leaves thousands of kinds of guns people can legally buy.

Here are my gun control measures...they work, and they actually target violent criminals, leaving law abiding gun owners alone, they require no new laws, they require no new paperwork, we can already do them.....

1) If you use a gun for a crime, you go to prison for 30-life.

2) If you are a felon who cannot buy, own, or carry a gun, and are caught with a gun....you go to prison for 30-life.

3) The above two policies will be read to all convicted individuals at their trial, when they are admitted to jail, to prison and if they are released after serving time for lesser crimes, when they meet with their parole officer.

That is how you will reduce gun crime.....

It does nothing to prevent crime. It only reacts after something horrible has taken place. People don't think about consequences when committing a crime.

And none of your measures prevent crime either.....but they do target law abiding gun owners....my plan actually works. How do I know? Because long prison sentences is the way Japan stopped the Yakuza from using guns......hardened criminals.....who used guns during their infrequent gang wars...(the last one started in 2006 and lasted 7 years....they used grenades and guns)......but now because of long prison sentences, they haven't had more gun violence....

Do you want to stop gun violence, or do you want to just annoy and obstruct law abiding gun owners?

Japan’s gun control laws so strict the Yakuza turn to toy pistols



Ryo Fujiwara, long-time writer on yakuza affairs and author of the book, The Three Yamaguchi-Gumi, says that the punishment for using a gun in a gang war or in a crime is now so heavy that most yakuza avoid their use at all – unless it is for an assassination.

“In a hit, whoever fires the gun, or is made to take responsibility for firing the gun, has to pretty much be willing to go to jail for the rest of their life. That’s a big decision. The repercussions are big, too. No one wants to claim responsibility for such acts – the gang office might actually get shut-down.”

The gang typically also has to support the family of the hit-man while he is in prison, which is also a financial burden for the organization.

Japan’s Firearms and Swords Control Laws make it a crime to illegally possess a gun, with a punishment of jail time of up to 10 years.

Illegal possession more than one gun, the penalty goes up to 15 years in prison. If you own a gun and matching ammunition, that’s another charge and a heavier penalty. The most severe penalty is for the act of discharging a gun in a train, on a bus, or most public spaces, which can result in a life sentence.

---

A low-ranking member of the Kobe-Yamaguchi-gumi put it this way: “All of the smart guys got rid of their guns a long-time ago. The penalties are way too high. You get life in prison if you just fire a gun. That’s not fun.”

 

[2aguy]

Yeah...not so much.....we have close to 600 million guns in private hands and now over 16.3 million people with permits to carry their guns.......and here are the accidental death rates from 2016...just released...

Gravity kills more people accidentally than guns do...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

poisoning......58,335

falling.......34,673

suffocation...6,610

drowning......3,786

The funny thing is...when I use those same statistics to show that you are much more likely to get hit by lightening then killed by terrorists I get totally slammed.

And it's important to note that you are not very likely to become a victim of gun violence. But like terrorism - that doesn't mean you should ignore it - or worse, actively prevent research into it. Or try to inact some measures to reduce it. Any time something is recommended - they start screetching they're coming to take our guns or they are going to ban guns.

Yes....we know how anti gunners work......we have a historical record of gun banning and confiscation from around the world and in this country....Germany, Britain, Australia, Canada, New York, California........they first registered guns and then banned and confiscated them.....

And none of the measures you push will do anything to stop crime or mass shootings.......but you keep pushing them...

Who are "you anti-gunners"?

I'm trying to discuss this RATIONALLY - not emotionally or fearfully as you are now doing.

I do not advocate the banning of all guns. How many times do I need to say that? Not even most guns.

I advocate common sense measures to reduce some of the gun related mortality.
- fund research into it
- register guns when bought
- background checks
- some sort of basic test of proficiency and safety (like Norway has)
- mandatory waiting periods (reduce impulsive violence or suicide)
- bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.

Like I said - common sense, and it leaves thousands of kinds of guns people can legally buy.

Here are my gun control measures...they work, and they actually target violent criminals, leaving law abiding gun owners alone, they require no new laws, they require no new paperwork, we can already do them.....

1) If you use a gun for a crime, you go to prison for 30-life.

2) If you are a felon who cannot buy, own, or carry a gun, and are caught with a gun....you go to prison for 30-life.

3) The above two policies will be read to all convicted individuals at their trial, when they are admitted to jail, to prison and if they are released after serving time for lesser crimes, when they meet with their parole officer.

That is how you will reduce gun crime.....

It does nothing to prevent crime. It only reacts after something horrible has taken place. People don't think about consequences when committing a crime.

If they didn't think about consequences, they wouldn't do their best to avoid being captured by planning their robberies, and rapes....

 

[Coyote]

They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.

Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?

Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?

Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?

Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

Yeah...see.... A bit more complicated, and you won't admit that their gun control laws are not lowering their gun crime rate...on an island, in a country with a homogenous population.........

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again.

I keep telling you that their gun control laws have nothing to do with their gun murder rate.....it is the culture of their criminals...they don't commit murder as often or easily as our inner city gang members do...

Their gun crime rate is going up....they are cutting police resources.....as you just quoted my links......and their criminals who are doing the shooting and the getting shot, are getting younger....which means their gun murder rate is about to go up.....

They are where we were going into the 1960s before our violent crime and gun crime rates spiked...

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
-----

Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

 

[Coyote]

The funny thing is...when I use those same statistics to show that you are much more likely to get hit by lightening then killed by terrorists I get totally slammed.

And it's important to note that you are not very likely to become a victim of gun violence. But like terrorism - that doesn't mean you should ignore it - or worse, actively prevent research into it. Or try to inact some measures to reduce it. Any time something is recommended - they start screetching they're coming to take our guns or they are going to ban guns.

Yes....we know how anti gunners work......we have a historical record of gun banning and confiscation from around the world and in this country....Germany, Britain, Australia, Canada, New York, California........they first registered guns and then banned and confiscated them.....

And none of the measures you push will do anything to stop crime or mass shootings.......but you keep pushing them...

Who are "you anti-gunners"?

I'm trying to discuss this RATIONALLY - not emotionally or fearfully as you are now doing.

I do not advocate the banning of all guns. How many times do I need to say that? Not even most guns.

I advocate common sense measures to reduce some of the gun related mortality.
- fund research into it
- register guns when bought
- background checks
- some sort of basic test of proficiency and safety (like Norway has)
- mandatory waiting periods (reduce impulsive violence or suicide)
- bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.

Like I said - common sense, and it leaves thousands of kinds of guns people can legally buy.

Here are my gun control measures...they work, and they actually target violent criminals, leaving law abiding gun owners alone, they require no new laws, they require no new paperwork, we can already do them.....

1) If you use a gun for a crime, you go to prison for 30-life.

2) If you are a felon who cannot buy, own, or carry a gun, and are caught with a gun....you go to prison for 30-life.

3) The above two policies will be read to all convicted individuals at their trial, when they are admitted to jail, to prison and if they are released after serving time for lesser crimes, when they meet with their parole officer.

That is how you will reduce gun crime.....

It does nothing to prevent crime. It only reacts after something horrible has taken place. People don't think about consequences when committing a crime.

If they didn't think about consequences, they wouldn't do their best to avoid being captured by planning their robberies, and rapes....

That's more immediate. Criminals don't think they'll get caught.

 

[Coyote]

Here's another thing. People like Paddock, who committed the worst mass shooting in modern history here - did not think about consequences. He was willing to kill himself. All the harsh penalties wouldn't have changed that. But MAYBE - a ban on bump stocks might have reduced the carnage. Why is it so unthinkable to ban bumpstocks?

 

[2aguy]

Notice...the homicide rate in Britain.......14 years after the ban and confiscation......

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

Yeah...see.... A bit more complicated, and you won't admit that their gun control laws are not lowering their gun crime rate...on an island, in a country with a homogenous population.........

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again.

I keep telling you that their gun control laws have nothing to do with their gun murder rate.....it is the culture of their criminals...they don't commit murder as often or easily as our inner city gang members do...

Their gun crime rate is going up....they are cutting police resources.....as you just quoted my links......and their criminals who are doing the shooting and the getting shot, are getting younger....which means their gun murder rate is about to go up.....

They are where we were going into the 1960s before our violent crime and gun crime rates spiked...

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
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Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.