More economic GOOD News...DOW hits new record..on track to hit 17K.

[Marxist]

I disagree with the idea of profit in regards to capitalism.

What does that mean?
I'll ask it another way..
If not for the purpose of profit potential( there are no guarantees) then where would be the incentive to start a business?

Why not start a business, in a system where the concept of profit and exploiting others isn't seen as ok.

Ahem....
Ok....I interview and hire someone. in that meeting I propose a wage and benefit package to which the new hire agrees. In return I have a high expectation of performance. I also expect the worker's performance to be such that his work has a net PLUS revenue result....
The worker is under the full understanding that there are periodic performance reviews that could result in either a bonus or reduction in pay.
He agrees....
Now you show me the "exploitation"....
I hired thus guy to help my firm make a better profit so that I can feed MY family. That's why I started this business.
You got a fuckin problem with that?....

Yes, the worker is getting paid less then what he is worth.

With no numbers to support your comment, it's just air.
Worth? Have you appointed yourself as the grand decider?
Here's how it works.....An applicant interviews for a job. The employer presents the prospect with a set of terms and conditions of employment.
The prospect agrees to those terms and conditions.
Where's the problem?

Surplus value, you have to understand surplus value.

 

[Marxist]

One day you will know the difference between communism and socialism. Maybe.
Then you could maybe fashion and intelligent post.

I already understand that the philosophical base is the same for both; they are slightly different flavors of totalitarianism.

And you couldn't recognize an intelligent and insightful post if your life depended upon it.

Utter bullshit. Totalitarianism? Please, tell me what communism is, and socialism, using the accepted definitions by non-idiotic people.

I knew you were ignorant of their shared ideological roots. Thanks for the confirmation.

Yeah, tell me all about their ideological roots, I'm sure you've looked into the history of socialism and communism, read plenty of Marx and Engels..

 

[Flopper]

I don't know about just the rich getting richer. Anyone who plays the stock market has the opportunity to do well.

As for the stock market it has nothing to do with the economy.

Just because the stock market is doing well this week doesn't mean the economy is.

Next week the stock market could be back in the toilet. Let see if Sallow touts that.

They are getting richer, and anyone who works the stock market for a living is a worthless scum.

That may well be but anyone can play the stock market. So anyone can get rich or go broke playing it.

They aren't worthless scum. They are folks who want to make money. Many do and many don't. Thats what happens when you play the market. You either make money or you don't.

That doesn't change the fact that they literally contribute nothing to society. It requires initial money and luck to "play the market" or whatever. They are folks who aren't doing anything beneficial to society.

I have to disagree with you on that point. They are certainly not worthless scum. Playing the market means high-risk trading by inexperienced traders in hopes of making a quick profit. The damage they do is to themselves because very few of them make money in the long run. They do provide additional liquidity to the market which is good but not essential.

Professional day traders, specialist, floor brokers, market makers, and customer brokers make the markets work. Without that function there would be no stock, bond, or commodity markets.

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

 

[Marxist]

They are getting richer, and anyone who works the stock market for a living is a worthless scum.

That may well be but anyone can play the stock market. So anyone can get rich or go broke playing it.

They aren't worthless scum. They are folks who want to make money. Many do and many don't. Thats what happens when you play the market. You either make money or you don't.

That doesn't change the fact that they literally contribute nothing to society. It requires initial money and luck to "play the market" or whatever. They are folks who aren't doing anything beneficial to society.

I have to disagree with you on that point. They are certainly not worthless scum. Playing the market means high-risk trading by inexperienced traders in hopes of making a quick profit. The damage they do is to themselves because very few of them make money in the long run. They do provide additional liquidity to the market which is good but not essential.

Professional day traders, specialist, floor brokers, market makers, and customer brokers make the markets work. Without that function there would be no stock, bond, or commodity markets.

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

 

[Flopper]

That may well be but anyone can play the stock market. So anyone can get rich or go broke playing it.

They aren't worthless scum. They are folks who want to make money. Many do and many don't. Thats what happens when you play the market. You either make money or you don't.

That doesn't change the fact that they literally contribute nothing to society. It requires initial money and luck to "play the market" or whatever. They are folks who aren't doing anything beneficial to society.

I have to disagree with you on that point. They are certainly not worthless scum. Playing the market means high-risk trading by inexperienced traders in hopes of making a quick profit. The damage they do is to themselves because very few of them make money in the long run. They do provide additional liquidity to the market which is good but not essential.

Professional day traders, specialist, floor brokers, market makers, and customer brokers make the markets work. Without that function there would be no stock, bond, or commodity markets.

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

 

[Marxist]

That doesn't change the fact that they literally contribute nothing to society. It requires initial money and luck to "play the market" or whatever. They are folks who aren't doing anything beneficial to society.

I have to disagree with you on that point. They are certainly not worthless scum. Playing the market means high-risk trading by inexperienced traders in hopes of making a quick profit. The damage they do is to themselves because very few of them make money in the long run. They do provide additional liquidity to the market which is good but not essential.

Professional day traders, specialist, floor brokers, market makers, and customer brokers make the markets work. Without that function there would be no stock, bond, or commodity markets.

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

Have you heard of the paris commune? The anarchists in spain? The free ukraine territories? Check out my signature.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Because a business that doesn't make a profit, isn't in business anymore. Hostess is a perfect example. They had high labor costs, and went broke.

You don't hire people unless you make a profit from hiring them. If you actually lose money by hiring someone.... why would you hire them?

You prove the concept. You start a business where you don't profit or "exploit" anyone. Go do it. Stop b!tching about it, and do it yourself.

Of course you can't. And you won't.

Collectively owned production by workers? That's the BS of capitalism, the inherit exploition of many for the profit of a few or one

By all means, start your collectively owned auto factory. Where are you going to get the capital to pay for just the R&D to make your prototype? Good luck. I can't wait to hear of your success.

That's the core of the problem, those who own capital are the ones who control the production and exploit others, the system is the problem.

When and where does the alleged exploitation take place?
Do not answer with, "when the workers are forced to accept low wages"....That's bullshit.
We are as free a society in any country on the planet. No one is forced to accept anything here;

Ever hear of surplus value? Wage slavery? The fact that you essentially have to work for the capitalists or not be able to buy food?

Wage slavery? Where'd ya get that one...Out of some commie blog?

 

[Marxist]

Collectively owned production by workers? That's the BS of capitalism, the inherit exploition of many for the profit of a few or one

By all means, start your collectively owned auto factory. Where are you going to get the capital to pay for just the R&D to make your prototype? Good luck. I can't wait to hear of your success.

That's the core of the problem, those who own capital are the ones who control the production and exploit others, the system is the problem.

When and where does the alleged exploitation take place?
Do not answer with, "when the workers are forced to accept low wages"....That's bullshit.
We are as free a society in any country on the planet. No one is forced to accept anything here;

Ever hear of surplus value? Wage slavery? The fact that you essentially have to work for the capitalists or not be able to buy food?

Wage slavery? Where'd ya get that one...Out of some commie blog?

Wage slavery - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[thereisnospoon]

I have to disagree with you on that point. They are certainly not worthless scum. Playing the market means high-risk trading by inexperienced traders in hopes of making a quick profit. The damage they do is to themselves because very few of them make money in the long run. They do provide additional liquidity to the market which is good but not essential.

Professional day traders, specialist, floor brokers, market makers, and customer brokers make the markets work. Without that function there would be no stock, bond, or commodity markets.

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

Have you heard of the paris commune? The anarchists in spain? The free ukraine territories? Check out my signature.

Yeah and?.....II suppose you are going to tell us next that those flyspecks are going to take over the world....LOL..
Ya know what the difference between you and those idiot radical whit supremacists the run around the back woods of Idaho is? Nothing....You have big ideas, no possible way of ever accomplishing their pie in the sky goals....and incredibly stupid.
So go ahead. Keep spewing.....Free entertainment.

 

[Marxist]

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

Have you heard of the paris commune? The anarchists in spain? The free ukraine territories? Check out my signature.

Yeah and?.....II suppose you are going to tell us next that those flyspecks are going to take over the world....LOL..
Ya know what the difference between you and those idiot radical whit supremacists the run around the back woods of Idaho is? Nothing....You have big ideas, no possible way of ever accomplishing their pie in the sky goals....and incredibly stupid.
So go ahead. Keep spewing.....Free entertainment.

Fly specks? The free ukrainian territories consisted of 7 million people. Keep spewing rheotoric.

 

[thereisnospoon]

By all means, start your collectively owned auto factory. Where are you going to get the capital to pay for just the R&D to make your prototype? Good luck. I can't wait to hear of your success.

That's the core of the problem, those who own capital are the ones who control the production and exploit others, the system is the problem.

When and where does the alleged exploitation take place?
Do not answer with, "when the workers are forced to accept low wages"....That's bullshit.
We are as free a society in any country on the planet. No one is forced to accept anything here;

Ever hear of surplus value? Wage slavery? The fact that you essentially have to work for the capitalists or not be able to buy food?

Wage slavery? Where'd ya get that one...Out of some commie blog?

Wage slavery - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Ya know what? I don't care. And why do I not care? Because I am not going to waste my time....
Wage slavery....As defined in.........LOL.....Wiki....Wow. Pure genius.

 

[Marxist]

Ya know what? I don't care. And why do I not care? Because I am not going to waste my time....
Wage slavery....As defined in.........LOL.....Wiki....Wow. Pure genius.[/QUOTE]
Do you even realize what wikipedia is?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

Have you heard of the paris commune? The anarchists in spain? The free ukraine territories? Check out my signature.

Yeah and?.....II suppose you are going to tell us next that those flyspecks are going to take over the world....LOL..
Ya know what the difference between you and those idiot radical whit supremacists the run around the back woods of Idaho is? Nothing....You have big ideas, no possible way of ever accomplishing their pie in the sky goals....and incredibly stupid.
So go ahead. Keep spewing.....Free entertainment.

Fly specks? The free ukrainian territories consisted of 7 million people. Keep spewing rheotoric.

Flyspecks. Yes. You are falsely claiming an entire population. Fucking hilarious.
Tell me. When was the last time you can remember being in touch with reality?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Ya know what? I don't care. And why do I not care? Because I am not going to waste my time....
Wage slavery....As defined in.........LOL.....Wiki....Wow. Pure genius.

Do you even realize what wikipedia is?[/QUOTE]
Yeah...A very unreliable on line source of information that anyone with a computer can edit.
As a source of facts, wiki is without credibility.
Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?

 

[Marxist]

Ya know what? I don't care. And why do I not care? Because I am not going to waste my time....
Wage slavery....As defined in.........LOL.....Wiki....Wow. Pure genius.

Do you even realize what wikipedia is?

Yeah...A very unreliable on line source of information that anyone with a computer can edit.
As a source of facts, wiki is without credibility.
Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should realize wikipedia has everything cited. Idiot. They are very strict on editing, just check the sources if you're a paranoid right tard.

 

[Andylusion]

What does that mean?
I'll ask it another way..
If not for the purpose of profit potential( there are no guarantees) then where would be the incentive to start a business?

Why not start a business, in a system where the concept of profit and exploiting others isn't seen as ok.

Ahem....
Ok....I interview and hire someone. in that meeting I propose a wage and benefit package to which the new hire agrees. In return I have a high expectation of performance. I also expect the worker's performance to be such that his work has a net PLUS revenue result....
The worker is under the full understanding that there are periodic performance reviews that could result in either a bonus or reduction in pay.
He agrees....
Now you show me the "exploitation"....
I hired thus guy to help my firm make a better profit so that I can feed MY family. That's why I started this business.
You got a fuckin problem with that?....

Yes, the worker is getting paid less then what he is worth.

With no numbers to support your comment, it's just air.
Worth? Have you appointed yourself as the grand decider?
Here's how it works.....An applicant interviews for a job. The employer presents the prospect with a set of terms and conditions of employment.
The prospect agrees to those terms and conditions.
Where's the problem?

Surplus value, you have to understand surplus value.

Yes, I'm very familiar with Marxist belief. It is false, and wrong.

 

[Flopper]

I have to disagree with you on that point. They are certainly not worthless scum. Playing the market means high-risk trading by inexperienced traders in hopes of making a quick profit. The damage they do is to themselves because very few of them make money in the long run. They do provide additional liquidity to the market which is good but not essential.

Professional day traders, specialist, floor brokers, market makers, and customer brokers make the markets work. Without that function there would be no stock, bond, or commodity markets.

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

Have you heard of the paris commune? The anarchists in spain? The free ukraine territories? Check out my signature.

Yes, I've heard of the Paris commune. It ruled Paris for less than a month but as with all anarchy, it failed. Anarchy is not a form of government but rather the absence of it. In an anarchy there can't be one man more powerful than another because then that man and his disciples will eventually over time rise to a higher and higher power thus forming a monarchy or some other form of government. This is why anarchy is destined to fail.

 

[Marxist]

Why not start a business, in a system where the concept of profit and exploiting others isn't seen as ok.

Ahem....
Ok....I interview and hire someone. in that meeting I propose a wage and benefit package to which the new hire agrees. In return I have a high expectation of performance. I also expect the worker's performance to be such that his work has a net PLUS revenue result....
The worker is under the full understanding that there are periodic performance reviews that could result in either a bonus or reduction in pay.
He agrees....
Now you show me the "exploitation"....
I hired thus guy to help my firm make a better profit so that I can feed MY family. That's why I started this business.
You got a fuckin problem with that?....

Yes, the worker is getting paid less then what he is worth.

With no numbers to support your comment, it's just air.
Worth? Have you appointed yourself as the grand decider?
Here's how it works.....An applicant interviews for a job. The employer presents the prospect with a set of terms and conditions of employment.
The prospect agrees to those terms and conditions.
Where's the problem?

Surplus value, you have to understand surplus value.

Yes, I'm very familiar with Marxist belief. It is false, and wrong.

Surplus value actually exists, you numb skull.

 

[Marxist]

I think of beneficial in terms of actual productive labor.

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

Have you heard of the paris commune? The anarchists in spain? The free ukraine territories? Check out my signature.

Yes, I've heard of the Paris commune. It ruled Paris for less than a month but as with all anarchy, it failed. Anarchy is not a form of government but rather the absence of it. In an anarchy there can't be one man more powerful than another because then that man and his disciples will eventually over time rise to a higher and higher power thus forming a monarchy or some other form of government. This is why anarchy is destined to fail.

18 March to 28 May 1871.

More then just the commune, and it didn't fail due to being anarchy.. It failed due to mass slaughter by the french armed forces, as with the other examples of anarchism. The free territory of ukraine? Killed and slaughtered. Of course it's the absence of it, but many anarchists have a democratic platform with worker cooperation, without the state. It's not destined to fail, you can say anything you want, I don't think the people will allow that to happen.

 

[Flopper]

Raising the capital to build and expand businesses is productive labor.

Yeah, that's clearly working, not like CEO'S are raking in massive bonuses, productivity is massively high and not going down to the workers in terms of wages, which are stagnant.. The problem for me is, we don't need capitalists to achieve any of this.

Don't need capitalist? Let's here your plan.

Have you heard of the paris commune? The anarchists in spain? The free ukraine territories? Check out my signature.

Yes, I've heard of the Paris commune. It ruled Paris for less than a month but as with all anarchy, it failed. Anarchy is not a form of government but rather the absence of it. In an anarchy there can't be one man more powerful than another because then that man and his disciples will eventually over time rise to a higher and higher power thus forming a monarchy or some other form of government. This is why anarchy is destined to fail.

18 March to 28 May 1871.

More then just the commune, and it didn't fail due to being anarchy.. It failed due to mass slaughter by the french armed forces, as with the other examples of anarchism. The free territory of ukraine? Killed and slaughtered. Of course it's the absence of it, but many anarchists have a democratic platform with worker cooperation, without the state. It's not destined to fail, you can say anything you want, I don't think the people will allow that to happen.

How would you in vision an anarchy in the United States?