More blatant nonsense from the right, keeping the poor away from their schools

[depotoo]

For many it is.

To be quite honest, college for the most part, is a waste of time and money in certain fields where ojt would suffice...

 

[Moonglow]

For many it is.

To be quite honest, college for the most part, is a waste of time and money in certain fields where ojt would suffice...

They have gotten ridiculous in the algorithms and analytical human resource sciences to where it pushes out people based on college education, a college education doesn't make a person any better than one without that has worked in the field and is knowledgeable of the aspects of information for manipulation...Hell I can observe a function and improve on its efficiency, yet have never had an engineering degree, yet I score highest in sociology...

 

[frigidweirdo]

Where did I state that? If you will note I stated most having it handed to them will not appreciate it as much.
I know my kids worked hard in school to receive scholarships because they were told they would need to find their own way. They did, also worked and are successes today. And did it without loans. And take nothing for granted.
Wow, such an emotional outburst. If you had taken the time to read my link...

I knew it was too good to be true...
Now, if someone really wants to go to college, then they will find a way. Working hard for something helps build character, and life skills. Having it handed to you on a platter does nothing for most.
And there is a site than can match you with thousands of grants and scholarships out there. If one just works hard to find a way, they will find out about it.

Christopher Gray's Scholly App Is Bringing Millions of Dollars to College Students in Need | Innovation | Smithsonian

What!?! Massive govt makes it harder to reach the American dream?? You are finally getting it.

But then potentially there are two types of people. Those what want the security of working for others, they're not worried about being millionaires, they just want enough money to live well, have education for their kids, have healthcare, have security etc.

Then there are those people who think money is the most important, and they'll push for working on their own, in order to take the risks, they might make it rich, they might not. They might work 80 hour weeks or more and get nowhere, or they might make it super rich. It's a risk.

But the reality is in the US that it's hard to make it, you are competing against lots of companies, and ones who are bribing the govt to make their company have a bigger advantage. The point I have been making, and you've been ignoring, is that the govt makes it HARDER for the small guy to make businesses that succeed.

Or, perhaps it's just that you don't actually know what I'm thinking. Too many people just jump to too many conclusions.

Ah, so the rich don't need to build character, but the poor do. Great.

Let's just take EVERYTHING away from poor people, make sure they can't get housing, make sure they can't get jobs, make sure they ca't get healthcare, or education, it'll build FUCKING CHARACTER, and they can go to the army and get their legs blow off because it BUILDS FUCKING CHARACTER...

Oh, well here's another not so new tactic "you're being emotional"....

So, your kids had to fight for it, and they don't take things for granted, does this mean that other who have to fight for also don't take anything for granted?

Or is this the sort of argument "It's not hot here, therefore there's no global warming"?

 

[FJO]

Why is Trump cutting grants for poor students to go to top schools? | Opinion

"
Why Is Trump Stopping Poor Students From Going to Top Schools?"

"The Administration’s education budget slashes $150 billion in federal student aid over 10 years. This move would cut by half our federal Work-Study program, which helps 675,000 students support themselves through college every year. "

Basically Trump put DeVos in charge at "education" and she's a proponent of school vouchers. Now, for me, school vouchers are just a way of taking money out of schools and giving it to rich people. But the right say it's all about CHOICE. The same people will then dismiss choice elsewhere, and ignore the fact that the UK manages to give choice to kids to go to schools they want to go to WITHOUT school vouchers.

Now, they want choice with school vouchers, and yet.... they're taking away money from poorer kids to go to college. Oh, so, what, wait.... universities will only be for rich kids, so it will benefit the rich and mean they can get the levels of education needed to get higher paid jobs....

Oh, I see, they're preventing choice, once again.

A leader elected not by choice of the people, but by the system, is making sure poorer people don't get to go to school.

My sister has a good job and so does her X, but they put everything they worked for into the education of their two children. My niece and nephew both have college bills that their parents couldn't afford. They will all be paying for my niece and nephews education for many years to come.

It's simply not right that others can walk into college and have an easy ride while others struggle for decades for the same education. There is no law that you have to attend college and never leave until you graduate. You can work for a while, take a couple of courses, rinse and repeat. You can still get college loans, you can do a number of things.

More Than 40% of Student Borrowers Aren’t Making Payments

The problem is Ray, you're looking at this only from the perspective of the individual. What about of the nation, which does need highly educated people who have gone through university?

Take China as an example. They want to win every Olympic medal going, seriously this is their goal. Now, one of the medals is for soccer. It's really under 23's soccer which allows three over 23 year olds to be in the squad. So, you need a decent level of soccer players.

China with a population that far exceeds any other country (except India, and they're absolutely pathetic at sports with the lowest per capita ratio for medals of any country that actually gets a medal) but they can't produce good soccer players. Why not? They pump money into the system, they do all of that. But they simply don't have the kids playing soccer. In Brazil they're all at it, playing all the time and they produce some of the best, but in China, they take rich kids who can pay and put them through sports schools, if they can afford to pay, and then what comes out at the end is a sub-quality level players.

If the US only puts through the rich to university, then the US will end up relying a lot of foreigners who have gone through university. Now, you're looking at places like NASA etc, but even the intelligence community which can't have foreigners, and you'll just end up with poor quality people simply because they were the only ones who could afford it.

But hey Ray, I know, I know, I've spoken with you enough, you're only happy when the super rich feel happy.

Oh, do you mean rich kids like Barack Obama?

It's not up to our government to produce college graduates, it's up to the individual. My sister was never rich,my niece was never rich, my nephew was never rich and neither is his wife. They all attended college.

So what's the difference between them and poor people? My family wanted an advanced education and was willing to pay whatever it took to get it, compared to the poor that lived their lives getting everything they wanted for free.

Only a fool would believe that the people who created a problem will also have the solution to it. Liberal colleges charge so much for education that people pay on that debt nearly half of their life or more. So now the liberal solution to the liberal problem is to have government pay for it.

Our country is 20 trillion in debt and growing. We all would like things for free, but the cookie jar is empty. The cookies have been replaced with IOU's.

Yes, yes, individuals, society is dead, all of that stuff.... I disagree with your desire to kill society.

Society is a collection of individuals.

The smarter individuals are the smarter the society is
The stronger the individuals are the stronger the society is.
The more self-reliant individuals are the more self-reliant society is.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Why is Trump cutting grants for poor students to go to top schools? | Opinion

"
Why Is Trump Stopping Poor Students From Going to Top Schools?"

"The Administration’s education budget slashes $150 billion in federal student aid over 10 years. This move would cut by half our federal Work-Study program, which helps 675,000 students support themselves through college every year. "

Basically Trump put DeVos in charge at "education" and she's a proponent of school vouchers. Now, for me, school vouchers are just a way of taking money out of schools and giving it to rich people. But the right say it's all about CHOICE. The same people will then dismiss choice elsewhere, and ignore the fact that the UK manages to give choice to kids to go to schools they want to go to WITHOUT school vouchers.

Now, they want choice with school vouchers, and yet.... they're taking away money from poorer kids to go to college. Oh, so, what, wait.... universities will only be for rich kids, so it will benefit the rich and mean they can get the levels of education needed to get higher paid jobs....

Oh, I see, they're preventing choice, once again.

A leader elected not by choice of the people, but by the system, is making sure poorer people don't get to go to school.

My sister has a good job and so does her X, but they put everything they worked for into the education of their two children. My niece and nephew both have college bills that their parents couldn't afford. They will all be paying for my niece and nephews education for many years to come.

It's simply not right that others can walk into college and have an easy ride while others struggle for decades for the same education. There is no law that you have to attend college and never leave until you graduate. You can work for a while, take a couple of courses, rinse and repeat. You can still get college loans, you can do a number of things.

More Than 40% of Student Borrowers Aren’t Making Payments

The problem is Ray, you're looking at this only from the perspective of the individual. What about of the nation, which does need highly educated people who have gone through university?

Take China as an example. They want to win every Olympic medal going, seriously this is their goal. Now, one of the medals is for soccer. It's really under 23's soccer which allows three over 23 year olds to be in the squad. So, you need a decent level of soccer players.

China with a population that far exceeds any other country (except India, and they're absolutely pathetic at sports with the lowest per capita ratio for medals of any country that actually gets a medal) but they can't produce good soccer players. Why not? They pump money into the system, they do all of that. But they simply don't have the kids playing soccer. In Brazil they're all at it, playing all the time and they produce some of the best, but in China, they take rich kids who can pay and put them through sports schools, if they can afford to pay, and then what comes out at the end is a sub-quality level players.

If the US only puts through the rich to university, then the US will end up relying a lot of foreigners who have gone through university. Now, you're looking at places like NASA etc, but even the intelligence community which can't have foreigners, and you'll just end up with poor quality people simply because they were the only ones who could afford it.

But hey Ray, I know, I know, I've spoken with you enough, you're only happy when the super rich feel happy.

Oh, do you mean rich kids like Barack Obama?

It's not up to our government to produce college graduates, it's up to the individual. My sister was never rich,my niece was never rich, my nephew was never rich and neither is his wife. They all attended college.

So what's the difference between them and poor people? My family wanted an advanced education and was willing to pay whatever it took to get it, compared to the poor that lived their lives getting everything they wanted for free.

Only a fool would believe that the people who created a problem will also have the solution to it. Liberal colleges charge so much for education that people pay on that debt nearly half of their life or more. So now the liberal solution to the liberal problem is to have government pay for it.

Our country is 20 trillion in debt and growing. We all would like things for free, but the cookie jar is empty. The cookies have been replaced with IOU's.

Yes, yes, individuals, society is dead, all of that stuff.... I disagree with your desire to kill society.

Society is a collection of individuals.

The smarter individuals are the smarter the society is
The stronger the individuals are the stronger the society is.
The more self-reliant individuals are the more self-reliant society is.

And the more people in society forget about society, then what?

 

[depotoo]

Are you denying it was an emotional outburst?
Ever heard the phrase where there is a will there is a way?
Most likely not.
There are ways to make it happen if one wants it bad enough. Jealousy and envy of others does no one any good. That holds one back from accomplishing everything they can be.

Where did I state that? If you will note I stated most having it handed to them will not appreciate it as much.
I know my kids worked hard in school to receive scholarships because they were told they would need to find their own way. They did, also worked and are successes today. And did it without loans. And take nothing for granted.
Wow, such an emotional outburst. If you had taken the time to read my link...

I knew it was too good to be true...
Now, if someone really wants to go to college, then they will find a way. Working hard for something helps build character, and life skills. Having it handed to you on a platter does nothing for most.
And there is a site than can match you with thousands of grants and scholarships out there. If one just works hard to find a way, they will find out about it.

Christopher Gray's Scholly App Is Bringing Millions of Dollars to College Students in Need | Innovation | Smithsonian

What!?! Massive govt makes it harder to reach the American dream?? You are finally getting it.

Or, perhaps it's just that you don't actually know what I'm thinking. Too many people just jump to too many conclusions.

Ah, so the rich don't need to build character, but the poor do. Great.

Let's just take EVERYTHING away from poor people, make sure they can't get housing, make sure they can't get jobs, make sure they ca't get healthcare, or education, it'll build FUCKING CHARACTER, and they can go to the army and get their legs blow off because it BUILDS FUCKING CHARACTER...

Oh, well here's another not so new tactic "you're being emotional"....

So, your kids had to fight for it, and they don't take things for granted, does this mean that other who have to fight for also don't take anything for granted?

Or is this the sort of argument "It's not hot here, therefore there's no global warming"?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It has nothing to do with winning arguments or partisanship, it has to do with what I truly believe in. It has to do with experience and actually noticing the world around me, realizing the mistakes we are making, and sounding off about them.

Now Ray, if I thought you believed in anything, I'd respect that. But from what I see of your posts, I don't think you believe in much other than being on one side of the partisan spectrum. You'll say ANYTHING to try and prove your side's position is right.

No, what I do is say what I feel and in many cases, provide evidence of it. There are not many advantages to being an older American, but one advantage is living years ago and being able to compare today to back then and spot where we went wrong.

Reading about changes that took place and living through them are two different things.

The problem is Ray, you're willing to provide evidence for things, and then you're also very willing to ignore whatever isn't convenient for your view.

You've seen change, but I don't think you understand why things change.

You might go to war and understand what it's like to have bullets flying over your head, that doesn't mean you understand why the war is being fought.

My experience is that the more government, the worse things get. That's not just a political view, but a personal one.

So when people start telling me how much better X would be if we had more government, I immediately reject it because no matter how much better things seem to be in the beginning, it ends up being worse off in the end.

Now here's the funny thing Ray, and the reason why I'm getting exceedingly frustrated. You say the govt doesn't do anything good. You say this and I hear "the govt is broken, there's a problem" and yet every time I talk to you about fixing the govt you say "nah, nothing wrong with the govt, keep it as it is".

How on earth do you fit those two opposing arguments together inside your "consistent" head?

I never said government doesn't do anything good. What I said is that government getting involved in places they don't belong makes those things worse.

As Benjamin Franklin once said, the general welfare is limited to those things enumerated. And I never said keep government as it is. What I did say is get government out of my life. Cradle-to-Grave is what's wrong with government and yes, that needs to be fixed.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Are you denying it was an emotional outburst?
Ever heard the phrase where there is a will there is a way?
Most likely not.
There are ways to make it happen if one wants it bad enough. Jealousy and envy of others does no one any good. That holds one back from accomplishing everything they can be.

Where did I state that? If you will note I stated most having it handed to them will not appreciate it as much.
I know my kids worked hard in school to receive scholarships because they were told they would need to find their own way. They did, also worked and are successes today. And did it without loans. And take nothing for granted.
Wow, such an emotional outburst. If you had taken the time to read my link...

I knew it was too good to be true...
Now, if someone really wants to go to college, then they will find a way. Working hard for something helps build character, and life skills. Having it handed to you on a platter does nothing for most.
And there is a site than can match you with thousands of grants and scholarships out there. If one just works hard to find a way, they will find out about it.

Christopher Gray's Scholly App Is Bringing Millions of Dollars to College Students in Need | Innovation | Smithsonian

Or, perhaps it's just that you don't actually know what I'm thinking. Too many people just jump to too many conclusions.

Ah, so the rich don't need to build character, but the poor do. Great.

Let's just take EVERYTHING away from poor people, make sure they can't get housing, make sure they can't get jobs, make sure they ca't get healthcare, or education, it'll build FUCKING CHARACTER, and they can go to the army and get their legs blow off because it BUILDS FUCKING CHARACTER...

Oh, well here's another not so new tactic "you're being emotional"....

So, your kids had to fight for it, and they don't take things for granted, does this mean that other who have to fight for also don't take anything for granted?

Or is this the sort of argument "It's not hot here, therefore there's no global warming"?

That would depend on your view of "emotional outburst". Do I have emotions? Yes, I do. Do I feel like a human being when I write posts? Yes I do. Do that make anything and everything which isn't an insult an "emotional outburst"? Does it mean that anything with capital letters is an "outburst"?

To be honest I don't give a shit.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Now Ray, if I thought you believed in anything, I'd respect that. But from what I see of your posts, I don't think you believe in much other than being on one side of the partisan spectrum. You'll say ANYTHING to try and prove your side's position is right.

No, what I do is say what I feel and in many cases, provide evidence of it. There are not many advantages to being an older American, but one advantage is living years ago and being able to compare today to back then and spot where we went wrong.

Reading about changes that took place and living through them are two different things.

The problem is Ray, you're willing to provide evidence for things, and then you're also very willing to ignore whatever isn't convenient for your view.

You've seen change, but I don't think you understand why things change.

You might go to war and understand what it's like to have bullets flying over your head, that doesn't mean you understand why the war is being fought.

My experience is that the more government, the worse things get. That's not just a political view, but a personal one.

So when people start telling me how much better X would be if we had more government, I immediately reject it because no matter how much better things seem to be in the beginning, it ends up being worse off in the end.

Now here's the funny thing Ray, and the reason why I'm getting exceedingly frustrated. You say the govt doesn't do anything good. You say this and I hear "the govt is broken, there's a problem" and yet every time I talk to you about fixing the govt you say "nah, nothing wrong with the govt, keep it as it is".

How on earth do you fit those two opposing arguments together inside your "consistent" head?

I never said government doesn't do anything good. What I said is that government getting involved in places they don't belong makes those things worse.

As Benjamin Franklin once said, the general welfare is limited to those things enumerated. And I never said keep government as it is. What I did say is get government out of my life. Cradle-to-Grave is what's wrong with government and yes, that needs to be fixed.

With you getting to define "where it doesn't belong" hey?

You have a view of how govt works. The problem is you want the govt out of your life, but when I state things like govt giving advantages to certain companies, which impacts you and the world around you, you ignore it, as if it's okay.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

View attachment 141057

But not everyone can become millionaires, unless of course money goes through massive deflation.

I never said anyone can become a millionaire, just pointing out that millionaires are not always college graduates; evil rich people taking advantage of the stupid and ignorant among us. Most are hard working people who invested their money and worked their lives for financial success.

They're not. However pointing out that you don't need a college degree to be a millionaire doesn't do anything. People with college degrees are more likely to earn more money. We're talking averages here Ray, you know, all the people, not just a cherry picked few.

Yes, on average they do make more money because people are geared towards working for others instead of working for themselves. But as the old saying goes, you'll never get rich working for others unless it's the government.

The great thing about this country is everybody has a chance at wealth. It's more creativity, ideas and risk than education.

I've run across a few instances in my line of work. Years ago a grunt worker at one of our customers had a few ideas that would improve production and decrease waste. He took his ideas to the owner of the company. The owner of the company told him to just mind his work, and he will figure out what's best for his company.

So the worker went out and found an investor for him to start his own company using the ideas he created at his former job. The new company grew three times the size of his former employers, and it's still growing today. In fact, he recently bought out his former employers company.

Another one I know of is a guy who worked in a packaging warehouse. He too thought he could do things better and more profitable. So he used his master card to borrow ten grand to try and start his own packaging company. Before he knew it, he was swamped with work, he opened up another warehouse, then another one, and eventually had seven huge warehouses he was running.

If I were younger and had a few bucks, I would open up my own company too. I see the success my employer has but also noted many mistakes he made and is still making. It's not just me, but my coworkers and I talk about it all the time. Like the other people I mentioned, when I approach my employer about how to do things better, he told me to just do what he hired me for and let him run the company.

But then potentially there are two types of people. Those what want the security of working for others, they're not worried about being millionaires, they just want enough money to live well, have education for their kids, have healthcare, have security etc.

Then there are those people who think money is the most important, and they'll push for working on their own, in order to take the risks, they might make it rich, they might not. They might work 80 hour weeks or more and get nowhere, or they might make it super rich. It's a risk.

But the reality is in the US that it's hard to make it, you are competing against lots of companies, and ones who are bribing the govt to make their company have a bigger advantage. The point I have been making, and you've been ignoring, is that the govt makes it HARDER for the small guy to make businesses that succeed.

I don't buy that.

I stopped at my beverage store on the way home from work. As usual, I BS'd with the owner for a couple of minutes. He's a guy from India. Came here with little, worked hard his entire life, and now he has a very successful beverage store, several rental properties, and he recently bought a hotel.

His wife quit working the beverage store to run their hotel. He said he's making very good profit on it already, but working on his feet his entire life, he no longer has what it takes to do the jobs needed to be done at the hotel. He's physically worn out.

How is it somebody can come here from another country and do ten times better than most of the people born here? I'll tell you how, it's determination. Its hard work. It's the desire to have financial security and success. He has ten times the American spirit than Americans born here.

23 years ago when I was younger, I took everything I had and got everything I could borrow to buy the apartment buildings I was renting. It's not enough to live on, so I still worked. But I spend a lot of money on this place, work on it after my job and on weekends. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it, but I also envy my tenants when they are outside enjoying this weather and they don't have to do anything.

I'll never be rich, but when I retire, I won't be one of those people crying because other people have things I didn't provide for myself when I was younger. While other people spent their money on luxuries, vacations, and entertainment, I spent my money on land investments.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, what I do is say what I feel and in many cases, provide evidence of it. There are not many advantages to being an older American, but one advantage is living years ago and being able to compare today to back then and spot where we went wrong.

Reading about changes that took place and living through them are two different things.

The problem is Ray, you're willing to provide evidence for things, and then you're also very willing to ignore whatever isn't convenient for your view.

You've seen change, but I don't think you understand why things change.

You might go to war and understand what it's like to have bullets flying over your head, that doesn't mean you understand why the war is being fought.

My experience is that the more government, the worse things get. That's not just a political view, but a personal one.

So when people start telling me how much better X would be if we had more government, I immediately reject it because no matter how much better things seem to be in the beginning, it ends up being worse off in the end.

Now here's the funny thing Ray, and the reason why I'm getting exceedingly frustrated. You say the govt doesn't do anything good. You say this and I hear "the govt is broken, there's a problem" and yet every time I talk to you about fixing the govt you say "nah, nothing wrong with the govt, keep it as it is".

How on earth do you fit those two opposing arguments together inside your "consistent" head?

I never said government doesn't do anything good. What I said is that government getting involved in places they don't belong makes those things worse.

As Benjamin Franklin once said, the general welfare is limited to those things enumerated. And I never said keep government as it is. What I did say is get government out of my life. Cradle-to-Grave is what's wrong with government and yes, that needs to be fixed.

With you getting to define "where it doesn't belong" hey?

You have a view of how govt works. The problem is you want the govt out of your life, but when I state things like govt giving advantages to certain companies, which impacts you and the world around you, you ignore it, as if it's okay.

Government can't give advantages to certain companies. They can give advantages to certain industries, but not certain companies, and that only involves taxation.

 

[FJO]

View attachment 141057

But not everyone can become millionaires, unless of course money goes through massive deflation.

I never said anyone can become a millionaire, just pointing out that millionaires are not always college graduates; evil rich people taking advantage of the stupid and ignorant among us. Most are hard working people who invested their money and worked their lives for financial success.

They're not. However pointing out that you don't need a college degree to be a millionaire doesn't do anything. People with college degrees are more likely to earn more money. We're talking averages here Ray, you know, all the people, not just a cherry picked few.

Yes, on average they do make more money because people are geared towards working for others instead of working for themselves. But as the old saying goes, you'll never get rich working for others unless it's the government.

The great thing about this country is everybody has a chance at wealth. It's more creativity, ideas and risk than education.

I've run across a few instances in my line of work. Years ago a grunt worker at one of our customers had a few ideas that would improve production and decrease waste. He took his ideas to the owner of the company. The owner of the company told him to just mind his work, and he will figure out what's best for his company.

So the worker went out and found an investor for him to start his own company using the ideas he created at his former job. The new company grew three times the size of his former employers, and it's still growing today. In fact, he recently bought out his former employers company.

Another one I know of is a guy who worked in a packaging warehouse. He too thought he could do things better and more profitable. So he used his master card to borrow ten grand to try and start his own packaging company. Before he knew it, he was swamped with work, he opened up another warehouse, then another one, and eventually had seven huge warehouses he was running.

If I were younger and had a few bucks, I would open up my own company too. I see the success my employer has but also noted many mistakes he made and is still making. It's not just me, but my coworkers and I talk about it all the time. Like the other people I mentioned, when I approach my employer about how to do things better, he told me to just do what he hired me for and let him run the company.

But then potentially there are two types of people. Those what want the security of working for others, they're not worried about being millionaires, they just want enough money to live well, have education for their kids, have healthcare, have security etc.

Then there are those people who think money is the most important, and they'll push for working on their own, in order to take the risks, they might make it rich, they might not. They might work 80 hour weeks or more and get nowhere, or they might make it super rich. It's a risk.

But the reality is in the US that it's hard to make it, you are competing against lots of companies, and ones who are bribing the govt to make their company have a bigger advantage. The point I have been making, and you've been ignoring, is that the govt makes it HARDER for the small guy to make businesses that succeed.

So, then why do you advocate more and stronger government?

 

[whitehall]

Where does the money come from? Federal programs don't fall out of the sky. Middle class families are trying to put their own kids through college so why should they have to fund the education of kids who are "recruited" for college by federal bureaucrats? A couple of years enlistment in the Military qualifies for the G.I. Bill. Do any left wingers ever consider that?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Where does the money come from? Federal programs don't fall out of the sky. Middle class families are trying to put their own kids through college so why should they have to fund the education of kids who are "recruited" for college by federal bureaucrats? A couple of years enlistment in the Military qualifies for the G.I. Bill. Do any left wingers ever consider that?

Like all their other ideas, trying to make the poor less poor or not poor at all will fail by sending them to college. That's not really the problem. Neither is increasing the minimum wage. The problem is poor kids don't learn in school, so all the money in the world won't help them.

If we really want to help the poor, we need to stop them from having poor kids. The liberal way is to reward them for having kids, and you can't solve poverty that way. All we are really doing is creating more tax liability for the taxpayers and putting ourselves more in debt.

 

[frigidweirdo]

But not everyone can become millionaires, unless of course money goes through massive deflation.

I never said anyone can become a millionaire, just pointing out that millionaires are not always college graduates; evil rich people taking advantage of the stupid and ignorant among us. Most are hard working people who invested their money and worked their lives for financial success.

They're not. However pointing out that you don't need a college degree to be a millionaire doesn't do anything. People with college degrees are more likely to earn more money. We're talking averages here Ray, you know, all the people, not just a cherry picked few.

Yes, on average they do make more money because people are geared towards working for others instead of working for themselves. But as the old saying goes, you'll never get rich working for others unless it's the government.

The great thing about this country is everybody has a chance at wealth. It's more creativity, ideas and risk than education.

I've run across a few instances in my line of work. Years ago a grunt worker at one of our customers had a few ideas that would improve production and decrease waste. He took his ideas to the owner of the company. The owner of the company told him to just mind his work, and he will figure out what's best for his company.

So the worker went out and found an investor for him to start his own company using the ideas he created at his former job. The new company grew three times the size of his former employers, and it's still growing today. In fact, he recently bought out his former employers company.

Another one I know of is a guy who worked in a packaging warehouse. He too thought he could do things better and more profitable. So he used his master card to borrow ten grand to try and start his own packaging company. Before he knew it, he was swamped with work, he opened up another warehouse, then another one, and eventually had seven huge warehouses he was running.

If I were younger and had a few bucks, I would open up my own company too. I see the success my employer has but also noted many mistakes he made and is still making. It's not just me, but my coworkers and I talk about it all the time. Like the other people I mentioned, when I approach my employer about how to do things better, he told me to just do what he hired me for and let him run the company.

But then potentially there are two types of people. Those what want the security of working for others, they're not worried about being millionaires, they just want enough money to live well, have education for their kids, have healthcare, have security etc.

Then there are those people who think money is the most important, and they'll push for working on their own, in order to take the risks, they might make it rich, they might not. They might work 80 hour weeks or more and get nowhere, or they might make it super rich. It's a risk.

But the reality is in the US that it's hard to make it, you are competing against lots of companies, and ones who are bribing the govt to make their company have a bigger advantage. The point I have been making, and you've been ignoring, is that the govt makes it HARDER for the small guy to make businesses that succeed.

I don't buy that.

I stopped at my beverage store on the way home from work. As usual, I BS'd with the owner for a couple of minutes. He's a guy from India. Came here with little, worked hard his entire life, and now he has a very successful beverage store, several rental properties, and he recently bought a hotel.

His wife quit working the beverage store to run their hotel. He said he's making very good profit on it already, but working on his feet his entire life, he no longer has what it takes to do the jobs needed to be done at the hotel. He's physically worn out.

How is it somebody can come here from another country and do ten times better than most of the people born here? I'll tell you how, it's determination. Its hard work. It's the desire to have financial security and success. He has ten times the American spirit than Americans born here.

23 years ago when I was younger, I took everything I had and got everything I could borrow to buy the apartment buildings I was renting. It's not enough to live on, so I still worked. But I spend a lot of money on this place, work on it after my job and on weekends. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it, but I also envy my tenants when they are outside enjoying this weather and they don't have to do anything.

I'll never be rich, but when I retire, I won't be one of those people crying because other people have things I didn't provide for myself when I was younger. While other people spent their money on luxuries, vacations, and entertainment, I spent my money on land investments.

Potentially it is hard work. Some people don't want to waste their lives working for a little more cash they can't spend because they're working all the time.

When you retire you'll look back on your life and wonder where your life went. Many people aren't like that, they don't want to be "when I retire I'll do something...", I do things now, I always have, I've traveled the world, I've done the things I want, and I don't want to run a business.

Different people Ray, want to live life differently.

To make it rich, to hit the jackpot where you can retire early by having a business and making it successful, is usually only possible because the larger companies will try and buy you out to stop the competition.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The problem is Ray, you're willing to provide evidence for things, and then you're also very willing to ignore whatever isn't convenient for your view.

You've seen change, but I don't think you understand why things change.

You might go to war and understand what it's like to have bullets flying over your head, that doesn't mean you understand why the war is being fought.

My experience is that the more government, the worse things get. That's not just a political view, but a personal one.

So when people start telling me how much better X would be if we had more government, I immediately reject it because no matter how much better things seem to be in the beginning, it ends up being worse off in the end.

Now here's the funny thing Ray, and the reason why I'm getting exceedingly frustrated. You say the govt doesn't do anything good. You say this and I hear "the govt is broken, there's a problem" and yet every time I talk to you about fixing the govt you say "nah, nothing wrong with the govt, keep it as it is".

How on earth do you fit those two opposing arguments together inside your "consistent" head?

I never said government doesn't do anything good. What I said is that government getting involved in places they don't belong makes those things worse.

As Benjamin Franklin once said, the general welfare is limited to those things enumerated. And I never said keep government as it is. What I did say is get government out of my life. Cradle-to-Grave is what's wrong with government and yes, that needs to be fixed.

With you getting to define "where it doesn't belong" hey?

You have a view of how govt works. The problem is you want the govt out of your life, but when I state things like govt giving advantages to certain companies, which impacts you and the world around you, you ignore it, as if it's okay.

Government can't give advantages to certain companies. They can give advantages to certain industries, but not certain companies, and that only involves taxation.

Are you serious? If you really think this is the case then your eyes are so blinkered it's impossible. Do you really not see what is going on around you?

 

[frigidweirdo]

But not everyone can become millionaires, unless of course money goes through massive deflation.

I never said anyone can become a millionaire, just pointing out that millionaires are not always college graduates; evil rich people taking advantage of the stupid and ignorant among us. Most are hard working people who invested their money and worked their lives for financial success.

They're not. However pointing out that you don't need a college degree to be a millionaire doesn't do anything. People with college degrees are more likely to earn more money. We're talking averages here Ray, you know, all the people, not just a cherry picked few.

Yes, on average they do make more money because people are geared towards working for others instead of working for themselves. But as the old saying goes, you'll never get rich working for others unless it's the government.

The great thing about this country is everybody has a chance at wealth. It's more creativity, ideas and risk than education.

I've run across a few instances in my line of work. Years ago a grunt worker at one of our customers had a few ideas that would improve production and decrease waste. He took his ideas to the owner of the company. The owner of the company told him to just mind his work, and he will figure out what's best for his company.

So the worker went out and found an investor for him to start his own company using the ideas he created at his former job. The new company grew three times the size of his former employers, and it's still growing today. In fact, he recently bought out his former employers company.

Another one I know of is a guy who worked in a packaging warehouse. He too thought he could do things better and more profitable. So he used his master card to borrow ten grand to try and start his own packaging company. Before he knew it, he was swamped with work, he opened up another warehouse, then another one, and eventually had seven huge warehouses he was running.

If I were younger and had a few bucks, I would open up my own company too. I see the success my employer has but also noted many mistakes he made and is still making. It's not just me, but my coworkers and I talk about it all the time. Like the other people I mentioned, when I approach my employer about how to do things better, he told me to just do what he hired me for and let him run the company.

But then potentially there are two types of people. Those what want the security of working for others, they're not worried about being millionaires, they just want enough money to live well, have education for their kids, have healthcare, have security etc.

Then there are those people who think money is the most important, and they'll push for working on their own, in order to take the risks, they might make it rich, they might not. They might work 80 hour weeks or more and get nowhere, or they might make it super rich. It's a risk.

But the reality is in the US that it's hard to make it, you are competing against lots of companies, and ones who are bribing the govt to make their company have a bigger advantage. The point I have been making, and you've been ignoring, is that the govt makes it HARDER for the small guy to make businesses that succeed.

So, then why do you advocate more and stronger government?

Do I?

What I say is this. Power is going to be sought and in the wrong hands it will be abused.

The reality is I'm actually looking for a political system which makes obtaining lots of power more difficult. Yes, have govt which is stable enough to do its job effectively, but make sure that compromise is a part of the package. Switzerland has a 7 person executive. Many countries have five or six main parties who are making sure that things don't go badly, the people can switch between parties easily.

But when I come on here and show people this, they decide that they want to stick to a system which oozes corruption.

I don't advocate more and stronger government.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

My experience is that the more government, the worse things get. That's not just a political view, but a personal one.

So when people start telling me how much better X would be if we had more government, I immediately reject it because no matter how much better things seem to be in the beginning, it ends up being worse off in the end.

Now here's the funny thing Ray, and the reason why I'm getting exceedingly frustrated. You say the govt doesn't do anything good. You say this and I hear "the govt is broken, there's a problem" and yet every time I talk to you about fixing the govt you say "nah, nothing wrong with the govt, keep it as it is".

How on earth do you fit those two opposing arguments together inside your "consistent" head?

I never said government doesn't do anything good. What I said is that government getting involved in places they don't belong makes those things worse.

As Benjamin Franklin once said, the general welfare is limited to those things enumerated. And I never said keep government as it is. What I did say is get government out of my life. Cradle-to-Grave is what's wrong with government and yes, that needs to be fixed.

With you getting to define "where it doesn't belong" hey?

You have a view of how govt works. The problem is you want the govt out of your life, but when I state things like govt giving advantages to certain companies, which impacts you and the world around you, you ignore it, as if it's okay.

Government can't give advantages to certain companies. They can give advantages to certain industries, but not certain companies, and that only involves taxation.

Are you serious? If you really think this is the case then your eyes are so blinkered it's impossible. Do you really not see what is going on around you?

When one company is more successful than another, it hardly has anything to do with government. Some companies do things better than others.

For instance they just closed down a K-Mart store where I live. It didn't surprise me. Every time I went in there, there were a lot of empty spaces in the shelves. Years ago I remember going there and complaining about not being able to find the products I went there for. One worker explained the K-Mart system to me:

She said that their store cannot order anything. It doesn't matter what they need or if they have too much of something else. K-Mart just sends in trucks of "stuff" and the items people want clear off the shelves fast. The items that they sell less of stay on the shelf and they have much more of it in the warehouse.

Well...... other stores like Target and Walmart found a better way of doing things. They not only do a better job keeping stock, but they have lower prices to boot.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I never said anyone can become a millionaire, just pointing out that millionaires are not always college graduates; evil rich people taking advantage of the stupid and ignorant among us. Most are hard working people who invested their money and worked their lives for financial success.

They're not. However pointing out that you don't need a college degree to be a millionaire doesn't do anything. People with college degrees are more likely to earn more money. We're talking averages here Ray, you know, all the people, not just a cherry picked few.

Yes, on average they do make more money because people are geared towards working for others instead of working for themselves. But as the old saying goes, you'll never get rich working for others unless it's the government.

The great thing about this country is everybody has a chance at wealth. It's more creativity, ideas and risk than education.

I've run across a few instances in my line of work. Years ago a grunt worker at one of our customers had a few ideas that would improve production and decrease waste. He took his ideas to the owner of the company. The owner of the company told him to just mind his work, and he will figure out what's best for his company.

So the worker went out and found an investor for him to start his own company using the ideas he created at his former job. The new company grew three times the size of his former employers, and it's still growing today. In fact, he recently bought out his former employers company.

Another one I know of is a guy who worked in a packaging warehouse. He too thought he could do things better and more profitable. So he used his master card to borrow ten grand to try and start his own packaging company. Before he knew it, he was swamped with work, he opened up another warehouse, then another one, and eventually had seven huge warehouses he was running.

If I were younger and had a few bucks, I would open up my own company too. I see the success my employer has but also noted many mistakes he made and is still making. It's not just me, but my coworkers and I talk about it all the time. Like the other people I mentioned, when I approach my employer about how to do things better, he told me to just do what he hired me for and let him run the company.

But then potentially there are two types of people. Those what want the security of working for others, they're not worried about being millionaires, they just want enough money to live well, have education for their kids, have healthcare, have security etc.

Then there are those people who think money is the most important, and they'll push for working on their own, in order to take the risks, they might make it rich, they might not. They might work 80 hour weeks or more and get nowhere, or they might make it super rich. It's a risk.

But the reality is in the US that it's hard to make it, you are competing against lots of companies, and ones who are bribing the govt to make their company have a bigger advantage. The point I have been making, and you've been ignoring, is that the govt makes it HARDER for the small guy to make businesses that succeed.

I don't buy that.

I stopped at my beverage store on the way home from work. As usual, I BS'd with the owner for a couple of minutes. He's a guy from India. Came here with little, worked hard his entire life, and now he has a very successful beverage store, several rental properties, and he recently bought a hotel.

His wife quit working the beverage store to run their hotel. He said he's making very good profit on it already, but working on his feet his entire life, he no longer has what it takes to do the jobs needed to be done at the hotel. He's physically worn out.

How is it somebody can come here from another country and do ten times better than most of the people born here? I'll tell you how, it's determination. Its hard work. It's the desire to have financial security and success. He has ten times the American spirit than Americans born here.

23 years ago when I was younger, I took everything I had and got everything I could borrow to buy the apartment buildings I was renting. It's not enough to live on, so I still worked. But I spend a lot of money on this place, work on it after my job and on weekends. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it, but I also envy my tenants when they are outside enjoying this weather and they don't have to do anything.

I'll never be rich, but when I retire, I won't be one of those people crying because other people have things I didn't provide for myself when I was younger. While other people spent their money on luxuries, vacations, and entertainment, I spent my money on land investments.

Potentially it is hard work. Some people don't want to waste their lives working for a little more cash they can't spend because they're working all the time.

When you retire you'll look back on your life and wonder where your life went. Many people aren't like that, they don't want to be "when I retire I'll do something...", I do things now, I always have, I've traveled the world, I've done the things I want, and I don't want to run a business.

Different people Ray, want to live life differently.

To make it rich, to hit the jackpot where you can retire early by having a business and making it successful, is usually only possible because the larger companies will try and buy you out to stop the competition.

What you don't understand is that just a few generations ago, that's all people did--work.

It was not so much for themselves, it was for the people they were going to leave behind. The mantra was for every generation to make it better for the next generation coming up.

Yeah, some people don't want to live their life that way, but those are the first to complain about people who did live life that way, and feel those who worked hard all of their life should give something to them since they have more.

Guess what? I hate working more than anybody. I would love to sit home every day and just do as I please. But if I choose that path in life, I would have nothing for myself, I would not be in control of my own destiny. I would be voting Democrat in hopes they throw me more scraps to live on.

 

[danielpalos]

The federal government has no business being involved with colleges. They charge tuition on their students. Why aren't these colleges letting "poor" students enroll for free?

The poor don't have a right to force others to pay for their higher education. They can join the military and get the GI Bill if they want it that bad. So take your Fake News story and shove it.

No need for, for-profit prisons, then.