Minority kids are stupid

[Unkotare]

I sense a terminal case of "charter school" envy here. Just because it doesn't fit the developmental models that your ed school pushed and the unions insist on..

It's a kick start for kids who CAN capitalize on the extra stimulation and does no HARM at that age for kids who aren't motivated by their early success..

As "they" say... Don't knock it til you've tried it and documented the results. And if there's one thing that American needs --- it IS results..

WTF is HEADSTART and PRE-K if NOT attempts to "jump-start" their little cranial engines?

Here's something to ponder: many European schools achieve way over and above our American schools and they don't even think of teaching "academics" until kids are seven years old. Let alone having them do horrid academic feats like memorize the Gettysburg address at five years old. (!!!)

Wanna know why? They know the research, and aren't into impressing dull brained parents.

But the reaction FROM the parents (dull brained or not) is REINFORCEMENT for achieving competency in using the TOOLS of learning.. You don't teach a carpenter apprentice to build the WHOLE house or cabinets. They learn to saw, paint, measure, sand before they even understand how the results are expected to look.. Nobody is getting fooled here. BUT -- I'm a fan of sneaking in a bit of tools learning and making it rewarding..

This whole thread has been about how five year olds memorizing a text as meaningless to them as the Gettysburg Address is less than impressive. As a "tool of learning" it does nothing other than display that young children have a quick propensity to memorize. That's it.

I think you just made my point.. It IS impressive to teach memorization in Kindergarten or 1st Grade to that ability.. And it puts them FAR ahead of kids who don't get challenged to do it.. Same thing could be accomplished for sorting animals into mammals, reptiles, birds, insects for instance. Or recognizing short excepts of songs or books that they've had read to them.

Basic tool training.. It's ain't useless...

Sorting is thinking. It is making meaning. You must understand what makes a mammal to put an animal in the "mammal" pile.

Memorizing is basic recall and nothing more.

Big, huge difference. Not to say that memorization is completely useless. But that you say the "same thing" could be accomplished, I'm sorry, is just wrong.

This discussion can be taken too far in either direction.

There is a well known tale in linguistic circles of a Frenchman who memorized a German dictionary, but when he proudly traveled to Germany found he could not speak the language at all.


On the other hand, I have some students who have never attended any school or received any formal education, and sometimes a student will literally have no concept of even trying to recall data in the manner necessary for academic work.

So, just memorizing things is of limited value for real learning, but effective recall is one of the cognitive functions that must be engaged in order to learn.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That's a PART of the ESL program.. And it means different staffing and different students in AP classes that are ALREADY hard to get into... And more TEACHERS for the unions...

And teaching them all english would also create more teachers and more classes. And when they are in english class, they aren't in another class instead. Which subject should they miss? Chemistry? Calculus?

 

[flacaltenn]

That's a PART of the ESL program.. And it means different staffing and different students in AP classes that are ALREADY hard to get into... And more TEACHERS for the unions...

And teaching them all english would also create more teachers and more classes. And when they are in english class, they aren't in another class instead. Which subject should they miss? Chemistry? Calculus?

Of course it would not. The admission of failure is that if they're taking AP classes -- they should have been fluent in English YEARS AGO... With NO NEED to take Physics, Math, Chemistry in another language. 3 or 4 years of immersion should have done the trick..

Rich white kids were being abused in Cali by being dumped by their parents into "Asian immersion" schools at 6 and 8 yrs old.. Those kids were bilingual by the 4th grade. But WAY behind on basic curriculum by the time they hit middle school...

 

[Unkotare]

That's a PART of the ESL program.. And it means different staffing and different students in AP classes that are ALREADY hard to get into... And more TEACHERS for the unions...

And teaching them all english would also create more teachers and more classes. And when they are in english class, they aren't in another class instead. Which subject should they miss? Chemistry? Calculus?

Of course it would not. The admission of failure is that if they're taking AP classes -- they should have been fluent in English YEARS AGO.........

Again, you are assuming all these kids were in the school system YEARS AGO.

 

[Unkotare]

......

Rich white kids were being abused in Cali by being dumped by their parents into "Asian immersion" schools at 6 and 8 yrs old.. Those kids were bilingual by the 4th grade. But WAY behind on basic curriculum by the time they hit middle school...

Doesn't work that way.

 

[flacaltenn]

That's a PART of the ESL program.. And it means different staffing and different students in AP classes that are ALREADY hard to get into... And more TEACHERS for the unions...

And teaching them all english would also create more teachers and more classes. And when they are in english class, they aren't in another class instead. Which subject should they miss? Chemistry? Calculus?

Of course it would not. The admission of failure is that if they're taking AP classes -- they should have been fluent in English YEARS AGO.........

Again, you are assuming all these kids were in the school system YEARS AGO.

How many years ago were they in a MEXICAN or Cent America school? If they're only here for a couple years and TAKING AP COURSES -- they probably didn't need to come to America...

How did they QUALIFY for the AP course?

 

[Unkotare]

That's a PART of the ESL program.. And it means different staffing and different students in AP classes that are ALREADY hard to get into... And more TEACHERS for the unions...

And teaching them all english would also create more teachers and more classes. And when they are in english class, they aren't in another class instead. Which subject should they miss? Chemistry? Calculus?

Of course it would not. The admission of failure is that if they're taking AP classes -- they should have been fluent in English YEARS AGO.........

Again, you are assuming all these kids were in the school system YEARS AGO.

How many years ago were they in a MEXICAN or Cent America school? If they're only here for a couple years and TAKING AP COURSES -- they probably didn't need to come to America...

How did they QUALIFY for the AP course?

You’re already starting to see for yourself that there can be many factors involved.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Of course it would not.

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

 

[flacaltenn]

......

Rich white kids were being abused in Cali by being dumped by their parents into "Asian immersion" schools at 6 and 8 yrs old.. Those kids were bilingual by the 4th grade. But WAY behind on basic curriculum by the time they hit middle school...

Doesn't work that way.

What do you mean "it doesn't work that way"? IMMERSION means emphasis on LANGUAGE building. Which means other things have to lag behind.. I had 2 friends/biz contacts that did this and regretted it later...

 

[flacaltenn]

Of course it would not.

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

Now this is why most leftists have no clue as to how things work.. They cant think independently or analytically.. Which takes MORE teachers?

A) A crash cart triage approach where they are in English immersion for one or two years WHENEVER they enter the system? MAYBE ESL classes for the slower ones for a couple years after.

Or

B) Providing segregated ESL classes for the DURATION of their stay in public schools UP TO graduation?

I'm talking about AP CLASSES Unkotare .. These are typically ONLY AVAILABLE to students as HS Junior or Seniors... Which means -- they've SOMEHOW qualified for these classes at the TOP of their schools.. PRESUMABLY not in Mexico or Honduras... And these classes usually imply they gonna take ACT or SAT nearly simultaneously.. Are you telling me, they are PREPARED for SAT and/or ACT but cannot take Chemistry or Math in ENGLISH?????

Like I said 3 times now, it's an admission of system failure if that is the case....

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Of course it would not.

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

Now this is why most leftists have no clue as to how things work.. They cant think independently or analytically.. Which takes MORE teachers?

A) A crash cart triage approach where they are in English immersion for one or two years WHENEVER they enter the system? MAYBE ESL classes for the slower ones for a couple years after.

Or

B) Providing segregated ESL classes for the DURATION of their stay in public schools UP TO graduation?

I'm talking about AP CLASSES Unkotare .. These are typically ONLY AVAILABLE to students as HS Junior or Seniors... Which means -- they've SOMEHOW qualified for these classes at the TOP of their schools.. PRESUMABLY not in Mexico or Honduras... And these classes usually imply they gonna take ACT or SAT nearly simultaneously.. Are you telling me, they are PREPARED for SAT and/or ACT but cannot take Chemistry or Math in ENGLISH?????

Like I said 3 times now, it's an admission of system failure if that is the case....

That is incorrect on one small point. You can take AP classes as early as your Freshman year.

 

[flacaltenn]

Of course it would not.

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

Now this is why most leftists have no clue as to how things work.. They cant think independently or analytically.. Which takes MORE teachers?

A) A crash cart triage approach where they are in English immersion for one or two years WHENEVER they enter the system? MAYBE ESL classes for the slower ones for a couple years after.

Or

B) Providing segregated ESL classes for the DURATION of their stay in public schools UP TO graduation?

I'm talking about AP CLASSES Unkotare .. These are typically ONLY AVAILABLE to students as HS Junior or Seniors... Which means -- they've SOMEHOW qualified for these classes at the TOP of their schools.. PRESUMABLY not in Mexico or Honduras... And these classes usually imply they gonna take ACT or SAT nearly simultaneously.. Are you telling me, they are PREPARED for SAT and/or ACT but cannot take Chemistry or Math in ENGLISH?????

Like I said 3 times now, it's an admission of system failure if that is the case....

That is incorrect on one small point. You can take AP classes as early as your Freshman year.

I suppose.. But having the pre-reqs are pretty problematic if you were not in a top school in that state.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Of course it would not.

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

Now this is why most leftists have no clue as to how things work.. They cant think independently or analytically.. Which takes MORE teachers?

A) A crash cart triage approach where they are in English immersion for one or two years WHENEVER they enter the system? MAYBE ESL classes for the slower ones for a couple years after.

Or

B) Providing segregated ESL classes for the DURATION of their stay in public schools UP TO graduation?

I'm talking about AP CLASSES Unkotare .. These are typically ONLY AVAILABLE to students as HS Junior or Seniors... Which means -- they've SOMEHOW qualified for these classes at the TOP of their schools.. PRESUMABLY not in Mexico or Honduras... And these classes usually imply they gonna take ACT or SAT nearly simultaneously.. Are you telling me, they are PREPARED for SAT and/or ACT but cannot take Chemistry or Math in ENGLISH?????

Like I said 3 times now, it's an admission of system failure if that is the case....

That is incorrect on one small point. You can take AP classes as early as your Freshman year.

I suppose.. But having the pre-reqs are pretty problematic if you were not in a top school in that state.

You are assuming that there are prerequisites. Many courses have none.

 

[flacaltenn]

Of course it would not.

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

Now this is why most leftists have no clue as to how things work.. They cant think independently or analytically.. Which takes MORE teachers?

A) A crash cart triage approach where they are in English immersion for one or two years WHENEVER they enter the system? MAYBE ESL classes for the slower ones for a couple years after.

Or

B) Providing segregated ESL classes for the DURATION of their stay in public schools UP TO graduation?

I'm talking about AP CLASSES Unkotare .. These are typically ONLY AVAILABLE to students as HS Junior or Seniors... Which means -- they've SOMEHOW qualified for these classes at the TOP of their schools.. PRESUMABLY not in Mexico or Honduras... And these classes usually imply they gonna take ACT or SAT nearly simultaneously.. Are you telling me, they are PREPARED for SAT and/or ACT but cannot take Chemistry or Math in ENGLISH?????

Like I said 3 times now, it's an admission of system failure if that is the case....

That is incorrect on one small point. You can take AP classes as early as your Freshman year.

I suppose.. But having the pre-reqs are pretty problematic if you were not in a top school in that state.

You are assuming that there are prerequisites. Many courses have none.

Most of the STEM AP classes have hefty pre-reqs... I just picked this school system at random..

AP Prerequisites | Central High School

AP Physics is your SECOND physics course. As is AP Biology which requires both Chemistry and "freshman" Biology.. And Algebra II is required for MOST of these as a minimum...

You're absolutely right about Social Sciences and History tho... Maybe some others I'm not aware of....

 

[Unkotare]

Of course it would not.

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

... PRESUMABLY not in Mexico or Honduras... ...

Why not?

 

[Unkotare]

Wrong. Of course, teaching them enhlish would requure more classes and more teachers, and it would come with opportu ity costs in the form of the classes NOT taight by those teachers and NOT attended by those students. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Thats not an impossible hurdle, but it is also not feasible in the current environment. So, the alternatives are to do nothing, or to make sure they have access to Spanish language courses. Easy choice.

Now this is why most leftists have no clue as to how things work.. They cant think independently or analytically.. Which takes MORE teachers?

A) A crash cart triage approach where they are in English immersion for one or two years WHENEVER they enter the system? MAYBE ESL classes for the slower ones for a couple years after.

Or

B) Providing segregated ESL classes for the DURATION of their stay in public schools UP TO graduation?

I'm talking about AP CLASSES Unkotare .. These are typically ONLY AVAILABLE to students as HS Junior or Seniors... Which means -- they've SOMEHOW qualified for these classes at the TOP of their schools.. PRESUMABLY not in Mexico or Honduras... And these classes usually imply they gonna take ACT or SAT nearly simultaneously.. Are you telling me, they are PREPARED for SAT and/or ACT but cannot take Chemistry or Math in ENGLISH?????

Like I said 3 times now, it's an admission of system failure if that is the case....

That is incorrect on one small point. You can take AP classes as early as your Freshman year.

I suppose.. But having the pre-reqs are pretty problematic if you were not in a top school in that state.

You are assuming that there are prerequisites. Many courses have none.

Most of the STEM AP classes have hefty pre-reqs... I just picked this school system at random..

AP Prerequisites | Central High School

AP Physics is your SECOND physics course. As is AP Biology which requires both Chemistry and "freshman" Biology.. And Algebra II is required for MOST of these as a minimum...

You're absolutely right about Social Sciences and History tho... Maybe some others I'm not aware of....

Why do you assume that a student taking an ESL class will stay there For all four years of high school? ESL students I tested at least twice a year and based on those test scores are moved up to more challenging ESL courses or the ultimate goal of the program is to main stream those students out of the ESL. If a student is in the school for four years by the time he is a senior he will almost certainly not still be taking ESL courses. They’re in mind that students do arrive in high schools or in the country at various points along the way of a high school career. Students sometimes show up in the country for the first time when they are Over the edge and educational standing to be a sophomore or a junior or sometimes even a senior. Often times kids show up and put one year earlier than they would otherwise be so that they end up significantly older than their peers by the time they graduate.

 

[Unkotare]

Why do you assume that a student taking an ESL class will stay there For all four years of high school? ESL students I tested at least twice a year and based on those test scores are moved up to more challenging ESL courses or the ultimate goal of the program is to main stream those students out of the ESL. If a student is in the school for four years by the time he is a senior he will almost certainly not still be taking ESL courses. They’re in mind that students do arrive in high schools or in the country at various points along the way of a high school career. Students sometimes show up in the country for the first time when they are Over the edge and educational standing to be a sophomore or a junior or sometimes even a senior. Often times kids show up and put one year earlier than they would otherwise be so that they end up significantly older than their peers by the time they graduate.

.