Minnesota United Methodist approve gay rights resolution

[Avatar4321]

United Methodists approve gay rights

Delegates to the annual state convention of the United Methodist Church on Thursday approved resolutions favoring ordination of gay clergy and performance of same-sex marriages.

Their votes on the two issues will constitute recommendations to the denomination's General Convention, which meets in 2008.

"We are asking the general church to be more inclusive of gay, lesbian persons in the church's life," said the Rev. Bruce Robbins of Hennepin Avenue United Methodist.

Robbins said members of the Minneapolis church where he is a minister support ordaining gay clergy, and its congregation has sought to welcome gays to the church since 1992.

"The issue for many people comes down to 'What does the Bible say?"' Robbins said during a break at the four-day conference at the St. Cloud Civic Center.

The vote was 496-223 in favor of the petition calling for equal access to the Methodist church "regardless of sexual orientation."

The resolution "to remove prohibition of United Methodist clergy from celebrating homosexual unions" passed on a 394-320 vote.

Obviously the issue didnt come down to "What does the Bible say?"

Why are Christians being so swayed by the culture as to allow them to pretend the Bible is not against all unlawful sexual activity? Exactly how effective is a homosexual man living in his sins going to be in preaching repentence? If a straight preacher fell from the straight and narrow and was living in his sins he wouldnt be an effective preacher. Why is a gay preacher living in his sins any different?

 

[liberalogic]

United Methodists approve gay rights



Obviously the issue didnt come down to "What does the Bible say?"

Why are Christians being so swayed by the culture as to allow them to pretend the Bible is not against all unlawful sexual activity? Exactly how effective is a homosexual man living in his sins going to be in preaching repentence? If a straight preacher fell from the straight and narrow and was living in his sins he wouldnt be an effective preacher. Why is a gay preacher living in his sins any different?

Maybe they believe that God created people this way. Also, everyone consciously sins in daily life. This really isn't any different.

 

[Avatar4321]

Maybe they believe that God created people this way. Also, everyone consciously sins in daily life. This really isn't any different.

First, the whole point of Christ coming to Atone for our sins was to Redeem us from our fallen states. God created us in a perfect statute, yet when we enter mortality we adopt the corruption of the Fall. To argue that "God created people this way" or "Its perfectly natural" would involve ignoring the fact that right now in our Fallen state, what is natural is contrary to living a Godly life.

Second, by continue living in our sins, we deny the power of the Atonement which enables us to put off the natural man. We are able to overcome the natural carnal urges of the body and become born again in Christ. By refusing to repent of ones sins, one refuses to acknowledge the power of Christ to change use. After all Repentence is a full and completely turning away from our sins. It's not just saying "Im a sinner, wo is me!" and expecting that to be enough to save us. Refusing to acknowledge the sin or excusing oneself because of our sinful nature is not repentence. Nor does it fulfill the requisite that ministers be an example to the people.

 

[Hobbit]

Maybe they believe that God created people this way. Also, everyone consciously sins in daily life. This really isn't any different.

There's a really big difference between sinning occasionally, asking forgiveness, then attempting to stop sinning and sinning the same sin on a regular basis without showing shame or remorse and then telling everybody that's it's not a sin because you just can't help yourself. If you're gay and you want to be in the clergy, you're probably going to need to take up the age old Catholic practice of celibacy in order to keep yourself from falling into sin and deluding yourself into thinking it isn't sin. If you don't have sex, your sexual orientation is rather irrelevant, so you can just keep it to yourself. Dying a Heaven-bound virgin is far preferable than going to Hell with an orgasm.

 

[MissileMan]

There's a really big difference between sinning occasionally, asking forgiveness, then attempting to stop sinning and sinning the same sin on a regular basis without showing shame or remorse and then telling everybody that's it's not a sin because you just can't help yourself. If you're gay and you want to be in the clergy, you're probably going to need to take up the age old Catholic practice of celibacy in order to keep yourself from falling into sin and deluding yourself into thinking it isn't sin. If you don't have sex, your sexual orientation is rather irrelevant, so you can just keep it to yourself. Dying a Heaven-bound virgin is far preferable than going to Hell with an orgasm.

So you acknowledge that one's sexual orientation is something one is born with and you're saying it's okay to be homosexual as long as you don't act on it?

 

[theHawk]

Maybe they believe that God created people this way. Also, everyone consciously sins in daily life. This really isn't any different.

No we don't. We believe the bible says its a sin.

But it appears that the leadership of our church is folding to the liberal ideas of the day. Chalk up another victory for liberals. I'll be looking for a new church.

 

[Joz]

So you acknowledge that one's sexual orientation is something one is born with and you're saying it's okay to be homosexual as long as you don't act on it?

What if it is genetic? All men are born into sin. Should we allow drunkneness, lying, stealing or murder to go unchecked because of genetic tendencies? Are we not suppose ask for forgivess, reject sin & strive to attain perfection? Not all sin is genetic. Some choose sin.

 

[Dr Grump]

From what I understand you can be a lying, cheating, murdering sonofabitch right up to your death bed, but as long as you ask for forgiveness and take the lord into your arms the moment before you die, all is forgiven. Sounds like a great option if you're a hedonist!!

 

[MissileMan]

What if it is genetic? All men are born into sin. Should we allow drunkneness, lying, stealing or murder to go unchecked because of genetic tendencies? Are we not suppose ask for forgivess, reject sin & strive to attain perfection? Not all sin is genetic. Some choose sin.

If it turns out that homosexuality is an untreatable condition a person is born with, do you think it fair or just to demand they live a life of celibacy or engage in heterosexual sex that they find as repulsive as we find homosexual sex in order to satisfy some people's sense of morality?

 

[Joz]

If it turns out that homosexuality is an untreatable condition a person is born with, do you think it fair or just to demand they live a life of celibacy or engage in heterosexual sex that they find as repulsive as we find homosexual sex in order to satisfy some people's sense of morality?

I'm not demanding anything. The Bible lists homosexuality as '"an abomination" along with the others things I listed. God does not condemn retardation, club feet, blindness, cancer, or other diseases that are unpreventable. Those that man has control over, are.

 

[Avatar4321]

So you acknowledge that one's sexual orientation is something one is born with and you're saying it's okay to be homosexual as long as you don't act on it?

I doubt he is acknowledging that, but im sure he has already made his own point known.

But the fact of the matter its a red herring. If you understood Christianity you would know that. The central theme of Christianity is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And through the Atonement human nature can be changed. We can become born again. So whether nature inclines people to do it or not is irrelevant since the entire point of the Atonement is to overcome our natural selves and become Spiritual through Christ.

 

[Avatar4321]

From what I understand you can be a lying, cheating, murdering sonofabitch right up to your death bed, but as long as you ask for forgiveness and take the lord into your arms the moment before you die, all is forgiven. Sounds like a great option if you're a hedonist!!

Its not though. God will not be mocked and if you think you can wait till your death bed to repent when you know you should do so earlier then you arent going to be forgiven. God isnt going to be tricked by any game you play.

 

[Dr Grump]

Its not though. God will not be mocked and if you think you can wait till your death bed to repent when you know you should do so earlier then you arent going to be forgiven. God isnt going to be tricked by any game you play.

I'll take my chances....

 

[deaddude]

Its not though. God will not be mocked and if you think you can wait till your death bed to repent when you know you should do so earlier then you arent going to be forgiven. God isnt going to be tricked by any game you play.

Emphasis mine

Here is where I disagree with you on a philisophical point. Lets assume that God exists for the moment and that He/She/It is a being of infinite intellect and wisdom. With that statement you (a being of considerable but finite intellect and wisdom) are presuming to know under what conditions God is willing to forgive some one. This is why we have a "judge not lest ye be judged" clause in the bible. Man with limited intellect is capable of judging the laws of Man, but Man should not presume to judge the Laws of God.

 

[Abbey Normal]

From what I understand you can be a lying, cheating, murdering sonofabitch right up to your death bed, but as long as you ask for forgiveness and take the lord into your arms the moment before you die, all is forgiven. Sounds like a great option if you're a hedonist!!

No one is guaranteed that moment of consciousness and clarity before they go.

 

[Avatar4321]

Emphasis mine

Here is where I disagree with you on a philisophical point. Lets assume that God exists for the moment and that He/She/It is a being of infinite intellect and wisdom. With that statement you (a being of considerable but finite intellect and wisdom) are presuming to know under what conditions God is willing to forgive some one. This is why we have a "judge not lest ye be judged" clause in the bible. Man with limited intellect is capable of judging the laws of Man, but Man should not presume to judge the Laws of God.

I hate when people take that scripture out of Context. God has commanded us to judge righteously. He just says dont judge by appearances.

And I know God well enough to know that He isnt going to forgive people who purposely put off repentance till the last second so they can sin all their life. In fact, its impossible for Him to do so. He has conditioned forgiveness upon repentance and planning a death bed confession is not repentence. It mocks the entire purpose of repentence.

With that said, there are some who when they are do realize that they have sinned and need forgiveness from God. God will honor those people. But He isnt going to be mocked. You cant plan to sin all your life and then insincerely repent at the end of your life and expect God to forgive you. God knows your heart. And He isnt going to be fooled by people who think they can do whatever they want and then be saved because think they can trick God into believing they are really sorry.

Repentence is the process of changing from our sinful state into a Holy state through the Atonement. It doesnt work on people who are insincere. And planning a death bed repentence is insincere. Now is the time to repent. Because the same disposition we have now is the one that we will carry into the next life and if we werent repenting now, your disposition wont change on your death bed.

 

[deaddude]

I hate when people take that scripture out of Context. God has commanded us to judge righteously. He just says dont judge by appearances.

And I know God well enough to know that He isnt going to forgive people who purposely put off repentance till the last second so they can sin all their life. In fact, its impossible for Him to do so. He has conditioned forgiveness upon repentance and planning a death bed confession is not repentence. It mocks the entire purpose of repentence.

With that said, there are some who when they are do realize that they have sinned and need forgiveness from God. God will honor those people. But He isnt going to be mocked. You cant plan to sin all your life and then insincerely repent at the end of your life and expect God to forgive you. God knows your heart. And He isnt going to be fooled by people who think they can do whatever they want and then be saved because think they can trick God into believing they are really sorry.

Repentence is the process of changing from our sinful state into a Holy state through the Atonement. It doesnt work on people who are insincere. And planning a death bed repentence is insincere. Now is the time to repent. Because the same disposition we have now is the one that we will carry into the next life and if we werent repenting now, your disposition wont change on your death bed.

I disagree, I beleive that if there is a God than it would be impossible to know his motives for forgiving someone. Now I agree with you that the presto changeo death bed repentance bit seems sacreligious, but judgeing someones soul would then be Gods job not mine, for me to tell someone that they are going to hell would seem egotistical in the extreme because I would be placing myself at the same level as God.

Sorry about the quote out of context, dont have a Bible on me at the moment. Would you care to provide the quote in context, or a link where I could look it up my self.

 

[Eightball]

So you acknowledge that one's sexual orientation is something one is born with and you're saying it's okay to be homosexual as long as you don't act on it?

I don't believe that is what Hobbit was inferring.

I believe Hobbit was saying that if you are beset with a nagging sin that you can't seem to turn away from, such as adultery, homosexuality, or any act deemed sinful, then refrain from the act, even though you can't stop being "pulled" by it.

Hobbit: Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your stance, and misrepresented what you were conveying.

In other words, put that sin to a stop, by refraining from the ways in which it is inflamed. He said that if one wants to be a priest......i.e. Catholic Priest, yet that person still is beset with temptation to sin, you must avoid that area of temptation in order to carry out the duties of a Priest. Otherwise, don't be a priest, if you don't put the homosexual behaviour in check.
.....
What foundation does the "Christian" church have, but the bible? Should or would the "Christian" church be the "Christian" church if it took a little from the Zoraster, Book of Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses's New World Translation, Morals and Dogmas of Freemasonry, etc.? Hardly in my opinion. The bible more than once states that the man/man sexual union is wrong. It is stated emphatically both in the O.T. and the N.T.. It isn't a blurry/fuzzy area of interpretation.

The N.T. also emphatically says that those who will teach/ lead must set an example via their public and private lives. The N.T. says that those that teach/lead in the church will be held to even stronger expectations as they have an influence upon the so many who make up the Body of Christ.
.....
Now, here's the misconstrued issue. Because of this biblical stand, these Christians that adhere to this, are called homophobic, haters, etc... This is due to the misunderstanding of the nature of God's view-point of sin. God loves the sinner, but does indeed hate the sin. The homosexual is loved as much as the adulterer, the liar, etc.............all men and women! We all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God(Romans 3:23). There aren't sins of greater magnitude than others in God's eyes. All of us have fallen short of God's perfection. Not in degrees. We are all hell-bound without God's work of grace through His Son Jesus's act upon the cross that atoned 100% for mankinds lost condition.

Homosexuality is just another sign or evidence of man's totally depravation. A man who is married and even lusts at another women in his mind, is no better-off.

The difference is this. God gives a new nature/life to those that believe(faith) in their hearts that Christ is their Saviour from their depraved conditon/nature from birth. God miraculously places our old nature/lives upon that cross(Galatians 2:20) and in doing so, places us spiritually in Christ. We join Christ in co-death, co-burial, co-ressurrection, and co-ascension, and become seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

Our old sinful nature is done away-with. We are now new creatures in Christ.

Now, that doesn't mean that we won't sin again, but it does mean that the very depraved nature that loved to sin is gone. God now looks at us as "clean" and "pure" in Christ's life. Why do we sin? Well, we still live with an earth-suit(body) that wasn't changed at our conversion. Sin has a power source in this universe that's helped and authored by Satan. Our minds are still open to temptation from without by unseen spiritual entities(fallen angels), and our mind is still beset with the old programming of our lives prior to conversion that mimick the old programming on a hard drive. The change within, is that now the Spirit of Christ/Holy Spirit now resides in our soul(mind, will, and emotions), but it wars with the old mind-set(programming0 with the help of Satan's influence.

Thats why the beginning of Romans chapter 12 starts with the reminder that all Christians must concentrate on a renewing of their minds. The old programming(unGodly/unscriptural acts) must be pushed-out, as the new programming(biblical truth) is ushered in. Studying and puting into practice biblical truths is key.

This is why Christians can be beset with sin problems as though they aren't even converted/born again.

It is a war of wills in a Christian's life. In fact many Christians will attest that after their conversion, life actually got a lot harder. Why, because before conversion, there was no conviction of concience in respect to sin. Sinning was not out of character, but the norm of the depraved nature. Homosexuality, adultery...etc seemed like it deserved a "pass" in regards to it's being wrong. When true salvation/conversion comes from God through Christ, the mind is beset with a battle. Old programming in the mind wars with the new Spiritual nature that has taken residence in the newly converted. The Apostle Paul reinforced this in his Roman's 7 verses. He fought with the desire to sin and the desire to be obedient to God. He even called himself, a wretched man, as this war within his soul became so painfully intense. He had such a strong desire to be pleasing to God(new nature in Christ), yet was beset with unnamed things that seemed to pull him down and really displease and upset him.

I truly believe as a Christian, that many folks who commit homosexual acts or have those tendencies can truly be Christians. It is a war of identities, as homosexuality is the old programming still being entertained in the soul of the converted. God says, that your a new Creature/creation in Christ, but the old programming that was part and partial with the old nature before conversion still hangs around in the mind.

I have personally met Christians who have actually lived homosexual lives prior to conversion and after conversion have become either celibate or even embraced heterosexual lives, and joyfully married the opposite sex.

Many of these folks will attest to having battled great mental, emotional, and physical battles to go back into the homosexual life style too.

A mindset, is not always the accurate indicator of one's spiritual condition.

Many Christians are tempted by vain and material things to such a degree that their lives are very out of balance. Lust for money, over and above, the norm is no different than than the lusts that may beset the new Christian who was formally a homosexual.

There's a Dr. David Needham, theologian, and former Professor at Multnomah Bible College, Portland, Ore. who wrote a great book called, "Birthright.....Christian, Do You Know Who You Are?". Dr. Needham systematically goes through both O.T. and N.T. scripture convincingly showing how most Christians nowadays are not truly living in the reality of their new God given nature. He basically calls it a type of Schizophrenia. Christians who still try to live after the things that were the apetite of the old nature before conversion, live basically miserable lives. There will be constant warring within their soul. It truly will be a Spirit versus Flesh/carnal war as divisive as water and oil. Until a Christian starts to accept or submit to the absolute Lordship of Christ in their New life, there will be internal and external conflict. There will be identity issues with life styles, and choices, etc...

.[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576732746/104-4983604-4317500?v=glance&n=283155"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576732746/104-4983604-4317500?v=glance&n=283155[/ame].........
Dr. David Needham Book

Becoming a Christian means giving up in totality one's total control of one's self/life. It is totally abhorrant to the human nature. That is why Christian conversion often comes on the "heals" of personal life crisis points.i.e. personal tragedy......deaths, divorce, financial disaster, loss of physical/mental/emotional health etc.

Often the human soul must be brought, "low" before it's willing to objectively look at it's true condition. Pride in oneself, can be healthy, but is often an obstruction to truly accepting reality of one's spiritual condition. Fight or flight seems like the only options, but the better one is actually to "give-up and accept". Let God be God.

 

[Dr Grump]

I disagree, I beleive that if there is a God than it would be impossible to know his motives for forgiving someone. Now I agree with you that the presto changeo death bed repentance bit seems sacreligious, but judgeing someones soul would then be Gods job not mine, for me to tell someone that they are going to hell would seem egotistical in the extreme because I would be placing myself at the same level as God.

Sorry about the quote out of context, dont have a Bible on me at the moment. Would you care to provide the quote in context, or a link where I could look it up my self.

You are right of course. If there is a god only he or she knows what he or she would find acceptable regarding forgiving of sins etc...

 

[dmp]

You are right of course. If there is a god only he or she knows what he or she would find acceptable regarding forgiving of sins etc...

Except we are already told what God finds acceptable regarding sins and forgiveness.

Askig forgiveness without repenting is useless.

(shrug).

Most 'sins' are 'sins' because they HARM us; and God wants to KEEP us from harm - be it spiritual harm or physical harm.

Homosexuality is sinful, likely, because it does BOTH - it destroys our insides (spiritually and physically).

This ruling by Methodists is pure crap. I'm very hopeful God acts upon their hearts; seems like their hearts are hardened however. I wonder what OTHER sins they will sanction? Child molestation? Rape? Lying? Gluttony? I mean, ALL those people cave to THEIR urges, too.