CDZ Maybe Those "Evil" Rich People Will Save Us?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Foxfyre, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Explaining it to people? If they had done that, the legislation would never have passed because most people would have demanded that heads roll first. Instead they completely lied about what the legislation would do and what people would expect.

    1. Like your plan? You can keep your plan.

    2. Like your doctor? You can keep your doctor.

    3. Premiums will go down.

    4. Premiums will go down at an average of $2,500.

    5. Deductibles will go down.

    6. The healthcare.gov website will work.

    7. The healthcare.gov website will be secure.

    8. Emergency room visits will go down.

    9. The 23 healthcare cooperatives will be the end-all, save-all, be-all.

    All lies. HUGE lies.
     
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  2. task0778
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    task0778 Silver Member Supporting Member

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    My problem is that the same people who told us these lies listed above about ObamaCare are telling us how great a Single Payer system would be, even though we can see how poorly run the VA run healthcare for the veterans and how SP didn't work in Vermont. Gotta be a better way than SP, the ACA, the GOP Plan, or what we had before. But getting all sides to cut the crap and stop the political games and actually implement something that IS better won't be easy.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  3. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    I believe the ACA was specifically designed to move us to a single payer system. I can't prove it. But President Obama made his intentions very clear before he ever became President though he didn't intend that we the people know about his intentions.

    These two clips I think pretty well illustrate how a professional politician expresses his opinion based on who he is talking to.





    I do agree if whatever the Republicans come up with is simply Obamacare lite, they shouldn't pass it because it will also fail and the GOP will get stuck with ALL the blame for it.
     
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  4. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    I will say as an addendum to my previous post that President Trump has also shifted positions on this or that because he is one of those types that generally speaks it as he sees it at the moment--all strongly extroverted people tend to do that--and then amends his/her position as he/she thinks about it or different information becomes available. But I have detected no intentional guile in President Trump or any intention to deceive or mislead his audience.

    He is often guilty of misspeaking or hyperbole at times, but that seems to be just him being a person and not a politician.

    So far as healthcare goes, he gets slammed for supporting repeal and replacement of Obamacare and he gets slammed for not being specific about what should be in it or not giving the GOP sufficient support. And he is constantly negotiating to see what the best deal he can get will be. That's who he is. He's not an 'all or nothing' kind of guy or one who says he tried but the other party wouldn't allow it so that's that. He may move to Plan B, C, D, etc. but he doesn't quit easily.
     
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  5. task0778
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    task0778 Silver Member Supporting Member

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    I heard an option just the other day, which is to pretty much leave the ACA in place but remove the federal mandate and allow states to opt out of the ACA. They can create their own exchanges and plans, and use federal Medicare/Medicaid money blocked for that purpose. It then falls to the states to devise their own solutions to the HC problem, and maybe that's the way it should be.

    Maybe a state could enact a 1% sales tax to fund payments for the uninsured, I dunno. Maybe a state could create a health care union like a credit union that you pay a monthly fee to belong to and covers a family's medical expenses above a certain amount. Maybe a state creates a Physicians Assistants program where citizens without private insurance go for treatment first and get referred to more qualified medical providers as needed. Maybe we allow states to join together to create a joint healthcare coop of some kind. Maybe there are other ideas to try, in an attempt not only to provide healthcare to more people but also actually cut the costs of healthcare, which unfortunately seems to have been lost in the fight over HCI.
     
  6. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    The only problem is that the ACA was 12 million words with more regulations and rules being added weekly as of 2013. I don't know if anybody has the capability of tallying how many pages, words, rules, regs, and requirements are included in it now. It would take an enormous knowledgeable law firm reviewing it full time to know what rules or regulations overlap, contradict each other, or even know what they all are. And the cost both to the individual person and the tax payer is climbing steadily.

    But more importantly, if the Republicans pass legislation leaving Obamacare intact but allowing states to opt out of ALL of its requirements, that just provides fuel for the Democrats to say that the only reason Obamacare collapsed is because the Republicans removed the mandates. It will be the GOP's fault for decades.

    I just heard commentary today that the CBO scoring for Obamacare missed the mark on the low side by some 200 to 300% So why would we assume they would do better with another large scale government program?

    The IRS alone is reported to have created eight new agencies to just deal with Obamacare. According to Reuters, tens of thousands of employees have been added to the federal payroll just to administer the program.

    I am pretty darn sure we can do better.

    Giant octopus: IRS has 8 offices to enforce Obamacare

    Obamacare Rollout Requiring Tens Of Thousands Of Workers: Analysis | HuffPost
     
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  7. RodISHI
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    RodISHI Gold Member

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    They need to be defunded along with all of the other agencies and programs that are doing totally unconstitutional crap. Medical care is a personal service. It is a personal choice as much as hiring a plumber because they do not know how to unplug their own toilet. Therefore they think someone else should be mandated to insure that the toilet gets unplugged. What caused the toilet to be plugged in the first place? Simple, hire a plumber to answer that question if they are not smart enough to figure it out for themselves but they have no right to bill someone else for their plumbing problems. If they can't afford a plumber then that is the time for them to start looking for someone in the building or the neighborhood to assist them.
     
  8. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    I can't argue with your logic here though in truth a medical problem is far more likely to be a matter of life and death than a plumbing problem is likely to be. But then so is food, water, and shelter that the federal government doesn't presume to mandate for all.

    I don't have a problem with the federal government putting together some kind of catastrophic medical coverage plan that would kick in once a low cost policy was capped, but people would need to buy into it just as they have to buy flood insurance and earthquake insurance when ordinary property policies don't carry those.

    And for pre-existing conditions, states could set up assigned risk pools at a higher rate for hard-to-insure people. That way, those who take care of themselves and keep themselves healthy are not punished by those who don't or who through no fault of their own have an expensive medical condition.

    Add competition so that the states cannot grant monopolies to a very few insurance companies and some reasonable tort reform plus medical savings accounts to cover the deductibles, and that really should get medical and insurance costs down to an affordable level.
     
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  9. RodISHI
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    RodISHI Gold Member

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    I do not think congress has any right to interfere with a person's choices involving the personal services industry. Insurance is a personal service supposedly offered by professionals. I agree that there needs to be an avenue for catastrophic medical coverage in certain situations. However, there again, who decides who qualifies and who does not. Will it be a dog chasing its own tail or a cat? Perhaps it should be a horse instead of a cow, regardless someone will pay big money and favors to line their own pocketbooks to be the one who decides who qualifies. If we start by cleaning up agencies like FDA, Codex Alimentarius Commission (CAC) and other agencies like this who are not only enabling but are aiding and abetting health problems for many that would be a good start.
     
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  10. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Who qualifies for catastrophic medical insurance should be the same as those who qualify for catastrophic flood or earthquake insurance. If you want it you would have the option to buy it. I don't need either where I live but I could buy it if I wanted it just the same. Many/most mortgage companies require it before they will provide a loan to buy a house or other structures if you live in higher risk areas. It is purely voluntary, but it is available for those who need it.

    And, because the standard homeowner's/business policy is not required to cover flood and earthquake damage, homeowner's/business insurance is affordable for everybody, both for those who live in high risk areas and those who do not.

    That's how a government provided medical umbrella for catastrophic illness or accident should be.

    You do have to buy flood and/or earthquake insurance before you know you will need it though. You can't wait until the damage has already occurred and then run out and buy a policy. That is the fallacy of requiring insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions--the person can wait until he/she is already sick before buying health insurance. And because of that, the risk is not spread and that drives up insurance costs enormously.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017

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