MASSIVE TECHTONIC SHIFT IN GERMAN FOREIGN POLITICS

[Statistikhengst]

The German "Bundestag" (the upper House of the German parliament) is in an emergency meeting to debate and vote on an exception to law in their Constitution. This is an exception that they have never before debated since the inception of the young German Republic 65 years ago.

They are planning to send offensive weapons and trainers to the Kurds.

The German Constitution (ratified 1949) strictly prohibits the use of the German military for any purposes other than defensive purposes. And the selling or loaning of offensive weapons to third parties is strictly VERBOTEN.

But with the advent of ISIS in the mid-East, the Germans are taking this development more seriously that people realize.

In 1991, Germany gave money for defensive purposes in Iraq War I. And of course, Germany allowed US overflights and also helped with the medical care of US Soldiers injured in that war.

In 2003, Germany refused to partake in Iraq War II.

But, Germany was willing to be part of part of defensive forces in Afghanistan, in fullfillment of it's NATO obligations.

For Americans, this may seem to be an unimportant point, but for Germans, this is a massive techtonic shift in their politics, especially considering that some of the most fervent speakers FOR delivery of weapons to the Kurds in Iraq are politicians from the SPD (The Social Democrats) - the more Left of the two major parties. Of course, Angel Merkel and the CDU (The Chrisian Democrats) are for the delivery of weapons - Angie is the one who decided that this should happen.

The Greens are not thrilled with this idea. The former Communists (now called "die Linke", under Gregor Gysi) are absolutely against the exception to the German constitution to arm the Kurds. But "die Linke" are a very small minority and most just give them the cold shoulder, anyway.

Germans are truly concerned about what would happen if ISIS overruns all of Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They are concerned that German citizens (or perhaps, better put, individuals who possess a German passport) are fighting for ISIS. They are concerned that if ISIS set-ups a longstanding terroristic Caliphate, then we are all in danger.

It might help USMB members to know that Angela Merkel, who is the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany, also sits in the Bundestag as a representative from her "district", so to speak. In Germany, there is not the same separation of the Executive and the Legislative as is the case in the USA. In fact, in the debate going on today, Angela Merkel has already spoken for and will likely speak again for the CDU as their representative.

If you want to watch the heated debate within the Plenary Hall of the German Bundestag, you can watch it livestream here:

Livestream tagesschau.de

On one final note, today marks the 75th anniversary of the beginning of WWII, which Germany started, and the pols who are speaking today are acutely aware of this sin that their forefathers committed.

 

[Statistikhengst]

A call out to a lot of people. I think this is really quite important information and not necessarily with a Left-Right tangent in relation to US-American politics. This is something entirely different. And worth being aware of, imo.

@AVG-JOE @Mad_Cabbie @JakeStarkey @Wolfsister77 @william the wie @Mertex @aaronleland @Bloodrock44 @daws101 @Delta4Embassy @MarcATL @Mr Clean @Nosmo King @Derideo_Te
@Nyvin @rightwinger @Sallow @oldfart @Thx @candycorn @Seawytch @C_Clayton_Jones @Barb @JoeB131 @editec @Flopper @Grandma @guno @bodecea @Pogo @Machaut @AceRothstein @kiwiman127 @bendog @PoliticalTorch @TheOldSchool @Jughead @cereal_killer

Also:

@CrusaderFrank @Samson @boedicca @Foxfyre @Old Rocks @Meister - you all are not on my usual call list, but I thought this information would be important for you to see.

Folks, please do not quote this posting, otherwise, you send out the mention (tag) list again.

 

[Statistikhengst]

I will report the vote in the Bundestag when it happens.

German national TV (ARD, ZDF) has pre-empted a number of hours of normal TV programming to make sure that people can see the entire debate.

 

[Jroc]

Good, Europeans haft to take up the slack for Obama's reluctance and hesitations good for Germany

 

[Statistikhengst]

Actually, one speaker for the SPD and another the CDU just expressly noted that without the USAF strikes in the last weeks, which stopped ISIS dead in it's tracks, then there would be no way to deliver those weapons.

And if I recall, Obama is the CIC, also of the USAF.

Was really not wanting this to be a thread about US-American politics, but I figured a Rightie would try to twist it into such.

Jroc, it is what it is.

 

[Statistikhengst]

A second speaker for the former Communists ("die Linke") is speaking again. In a sign of disapproval, Budeskanzlerin Angela Merkel and her no. 2, Frank-Walter Steinmeyer (SPD), have temporarily left the hall.

lol...

 

[Derideo_Te]

I can appreciate their reluctance in this matter but they are also taking their responsibilities seriously.

Personally I agree with arming the Kurds against ISIS. If the German people decide to take this step I will them for doing what is right for the free peoples of the ME.

 

[Statistikhengst]

The rest of the debate will be now carried per livestream in Phoenix:

PHOENIX Livestream

At 17:00 (5 PM, German time) in Germany, one hour from now, the Bundestag will vote on the motion to send weapons to the Kurds. It is expected that the motion will pass quite easily.

 

[Jroc]

Actually, one speaker for the SPD and another the CDU just expressly noted that without the USAF strikes in the last weeks, which stopped ISIS dead in it's tracks, then there would be no way to deliver those weapons.

And if I recall, Obama is the CIC, also of the USAF.

Was really not wanting this to be a thread about US-American politics, but I figured a Rightie would try to twist it into such.

Jroc, it is what it is.

Yep better late than never i suppose also too little and so late but thank you Germany...Maybe

 

[Statistikhengst]

Actually, one speaker for the SPD and another the CDU just expressly noted that without the USAF strikes in the last weeks, which stopped ISIS dead in it's tracks, then there would be no way to deliver those weapons.

And if I recall, Obama is the CIC, also of the USAF.

Was really not wanting this to be a thread about US-American politics, but I figured a Rightie would try to twist it into such.

Jroc, it is what it is.

Yep better late than never i suppose also too little and so late but thank you Germany...Maybe

Time will tell.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Probably the last speaker before the debate is closed. Vote in 15 minutes or so.

More than 600 members of the Bundestag.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'll have to say, given Germany's long track record on restraint, I would trust Angela Merkel's judgment on this a hell of lot more than I trust Obama to do the right thing. I presume she is in favor? On the other hand, there is the historian side of me that is wary of a slippery slope and a little prayer going up that this is not an escalation and a step closer to a more militantly involved Europe and WWIII.

 

[Statistikhengst]

I'll have to say, given Germany's long track record on restraint, I would trust Angela Merkel's judgment on this a hell of lot more than I trust Obama to do the right thing. I presume she is in favor? On the other hand, there is the historian side of me that is wary of a slippery slope and a little prayer going up that this is not an escalation and a step closer to the rearming of Europe and WWIII.

Merkel is for it and it was also in consultation with President Obama.

 

[HenryBHough]

I'll have to say, given Germany's long track record on restraint, I would trust Angela Merkel's judgment on this a hell of lot more than I trust Obama to do the right thing. I presume she is in favor? On the other hand, there is the historian side of me that is wary of a slippery slope and a little prayer going up that this is not an escalation and a step closer to a more militantly involved Europe and WWIII.

While this might seem like a good idea just now consider that Germany's dream of world domination did not die with Hitler.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I'll have to say, given Germany's long track record on restraint, I would trust Angela Merkel's judgment on this a hell of lot more than I trust Obama to do the right thing. I presume she is in favor? On the other hand, there is the historian side of me that is wary of a slippery slope and a little prayer going up that this is not an escalation and a step closer to a more militantly involved Europe and WWIII.

While this might seem like a good idea just now consider that Germany's dream of world domination did not die with Hitler.

The German people no longer have the "dream of world domination". Instead it has morphed into the dregs of humanity that you will find over at Stormfront. Unfortunately we are getting an infestation of them here in USMB too.

 

[Statistikhengst]

I'll have to say, given Germany's long track record on restraint, I would trust Angela Merkel's judgment on this a hell of lot more than I trust Obama to do the right thing. I presume she is in favor? On the other hand, there is the historian side of me that is wary of a slippery slope and a little prayer going up that this is not an escalation and a step closer to a more militantly involved Europe and WWIII.

While this might seem like a good idea just now consider that Germany's dream of world domination did not die with Hitler.

Actually, it did.

What you just wrote is absolute bullshit, without any basis in fact or reason. I guess when a person has no facts at his side, then all he has left is to troll like crazy.

 

[Samson]

I'll have to say, given Germany's long track record on restraint, I would trust Angela Merkel's judgment on this a hell of lot more than I trust Obama to do the right thing. I presume she is in favor? On the other hand, there is the historian side of me that is wary of a slippery slope and a little prayer going up that this is not an escalation and a step closer to a more militantly involved Europe and WWIII.

While this might seem like a good idea just now consider that Germany's dream of world domination did not die with Hitler.

Actually, it did.

What you just wrote is absolute bullshit, without any basis in fact or reason. I guess when a person has no facts at his side, then all he has left is to troll like crazy.

These fucks who are X every fucking post.

Get a life, bitches.

 

[Bleipriester]

The German "Bundestag" (the upper House of the German parliament) is in an emergency meeting to debate and vote on an exception to law in their Constitution. This is an exception that they have never before debated since the inception of the young German Republic 65 years ago.

They are planning to send offensive weapons and trainers to the Kurds.

The German Constitution (ratified 1949) strictly prohibits the use of the German military for any purposes other than defensive purposes. And the selling or loaning of offensive weapons to third parties is strictly VERBOTEN.

But with the advent of ISIS in the mid-East, the Germans are taking this development more seriously that people realize.

In 1991, Germany gave money for defensive purposes in Iraq War I. And of course, Germany allowed US overflights and also helped with the medical care of US Soldiers injured in that war.

In 2003, Germany refused to partake in Iraq War II.

But, Germany was willing to be part of part of defensive forces in Afghanistan, in fullfillment of it's NATO obligations.

For Americans, this may seem to be an unimportant point, but for Germans, this is a massive techtonic shift in their politics, especially considering that some of the most fervent speakers FOR delivery of weapons to the Kurds in Iraq are politicians from the SPD (The Social Democrats) - the more Left of the two major parties. Of course, Angel Merkel and the CDU (The Chrisian Democrats) are for the delivery of weapons - Angie is the one who decided that this should happen.

The Greens are not thrilled with this idea. The former Communists (now called "die Linke", under Gregor Gysi) are absolutely against the exception to the German constitution to arm the Kurds. But "die Linke" are a very small minority and most just give them the cold shoulder, anyway.

Germans are truly concerned about what would happen if ISIS overruns all of Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They are concerned that German citizens (or perhaps, better put, individuals who possess a German passport) are fighting for ISIS. They are concerned that if ISIS set-ups a longstanding terroristic Caliphate, then we are all in danger.

It might help USMB members to know that Angela Merkel, who is the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany, also sits in the Bundestag as a representative from her "district", so to speak. In Germany, there is not the same separation of the Executive and the Legislative as is the case in the USA. In fact, in the debate going on today, Angela Merkel has already spoken for and will likely speak again for the CDU as their representative.

If you want to watch the heated debate within the Plenary Hall of the German Bundestag, you can watch it livestream here:

Livestream tagesschau.de

On one final note, today marks the 75th anniversary of the beginning of WWII, which Germany started, and the pols who are speaking today are acutely aware of this sin that their forefathers committed.

Germany as one of the world's largest arms exporters does not even notice this.

 

[Bleipriester]

A call out to a lot of people. I think this is really quite important information and not necessarily with a Left-Right tangent in relation to US-American politics. This is something entirely different. And worth being aware of, imo.

@AVG-JOE @Mad_Cabbie @JakeStarkey @Wolfsister77 @william the wie @Mertex @aaronleland @Bloodrock44 @daws101 @Delta4Embassy @MarcATL @Mr Clean @Nosmo King @Derideo_Te
@Nyvin @rightwinger @Sallow @oldfart @Thx @candycorn @Seawytch @C_Clayton_Jones @Barb @JoeB131 @editec @Flopper @Grandma @guno @bodecea @Pogo @Machaut @AceRothstein @kiwiman127 @bendog @PoliticalTorch @TheOldSchool @Jughead @cereal_killer

Also:

@CrusaderFrank @Samson @boedicca @Foxfyre @Old Rocks @Meister - you all are not on my usual call list, but I thought this information would be important for you to see.

Folks, please do not quote this posting, otherwise, you send out the mention (tag) list again.

You did not mention me. I could consider this an insult but somehow you are right. I did not detect any tectonic shift so far. If Germany would have such a problem, the Bundestag would still debate another exception that would allow the Bundeswehr to act inside of Germany, when the militants already enter the Reichstag.

 

[Statistikhengst]

You did not mention me. I could consider this an insult but somehow you are right. I did not detect any tectonic shift so far. If Germany would have such a problem, the Bundestag would still debate another exception that would allow the Bundeswehr to act inside of Germany, when the militants already enter the Reichstag.

I specifically asked people to NOT quote the mention list and then you go do it.

You are not on the mention list because you never asked to be