Massive, Hidden Object in Space

[percysunshine]

It cannot be seen because it emits no light of its own. It is inferred that it is there because of gravitational effects perceived to occur in the oort cloud (which itself is inferred as it has not been "seen" either. The oort cloud is the hypothesised origin of the comets that frequently pass into the inner solar system. The only way to "see" Tyche would be to have a probe travel to where it is mathematially calculated to be, or long exposure photography from the HST or if it happens to occlude a star and we happen to be luckily looking at the right patch of sky at the time.

Soooo...it is an inference from an inference...

Funny how science wanders down these paths.

Sorta.

Science, like me, based on failure, mistakes, questions, error, stupidity, assumption without cause, and postulation. Emperical evidence then proves fact over matter. That is the nature of Discovery. Very few involved in science or technology or the like are legends in their own mind, since everything becomes awe and wonder.

My whole program is based on what I do not know. It is the joy of discovery.

It is very much the words of Carl Sagan's "The Pale Blue Dot".

Robert

Carl Sagan predicted in 1991 that the Gulf War oil field fires would freeze the planet into an ice ball.

 

[westwall]

It cannot be seen because it emits no light of its own. It is inferred that it is there because of gravitational effects perceived to occur in the oort cloud (which itself is inferred as it has not been "seen" either. The oort cloud is the hypothesised origin of the comets that frequently pass into the inner solar system. The only way to "see" Tyche would be to have a probe travel to where it is mathematially calculated to be, or long exposure photography from the HST or if it happens to occlude a star and we happen to be luckily looking at the right patch of sky at the time.

Soooo...it is an inference from an inference...

Funny how science wanders down these paths.

That is correct. The oort cloud is so far the best explanation for the comets that penetrate into the inner solar system but it is not the only possibility here. This is not climatology where they only focus on man as a cause, there are many hypotheses for observed phenomena. The goal is to test as many different theories as possible to find the one that is closest to observed reality.

 

[westwall]

Soooo...it is an inference from an inference...

Funny how science wanders down these paths.

Sorta.

Science, like me, based on failure, mistakes, questions, error, stupidity, assumption without cause, and postulation. Emperical evidence then proves fact over matter. That is the nature of Discovery. Very few involved in science or technology or the like are legends in their own mind, since everything becomes awe and wonder.

My whole program is based on what I do not know. It is the joy of discovery.

It is very much the words of Carl Sagan's "The Pale Blue Dot".

Robert

Carl Sagan predicted in 1991 that the Gulf War oil field fires would freeze the planet into an ice ball.

Just because he was a great astronomer doesn't make him perfect any more than Kaku is perfect, scientists are far from perfect, but the good ones, when presented with evidence will modify their viewpoints.

 

[DiveCon]

Soooo...it is an inference from an inference...

Funny how science wanders down these paths.

Sorta.

Science, like me, based on failure, mistakes, questions, error, stupidity, assumption without cause, and postulation. Emperical evidence then proves fact over matter. That is the nature of Discovery. Very few involved in science or technology or the like are legends in their own mind, since everything becomes awe and wonder.

My whole program is based on what I do not know. It is the joy of discovery.

It is very much the words of Carl Sagan's "The Pale Blue Dot".

Robert

Carl Sagan predicted in 1991 that the Gulf War oil field fires would freeze the planet into an ice ball.

source?

 

[percysunshine]

Sorta.

Science, like me, based on failure, mistakes, questions, error, stupidity, assumption without cause, and postulation. Emperical evidence then proves fact over matter. That is the nature of Discovery. Very few involved in science or technology or the like are legends in their own mind, since everything becomes awe and wonder.

My whole program is based on what I do not know. It is the joy of discovery.

It is very much the words of Carl Sagan's "The Pale Blue Dot".

Robert

Carl Sagan predicted in 1991 that the Gulf War oil field fires would freeze the planet into an ice ball.

source?

I watched him say it on television.

How old are you?

 

[westwall]

Sorta.

Science, like me, based on failure, mistakes, questions, error, stupidity, assumption without cause, and postulation. Emperical evidence then proves fact over matter. That is the nature of Discovery. Very few involved in science or technology or the like are legends in their own mind, since everything becomes awe and wonder.

My whole program is based on what I do not know. It is the joy of discovery.

It is very much the words of Carl Sagan's "The Pale Blue Dot".

Robert

Carl Sagan predicted in 1991 that the Gulf War oil field fires would freeze the planet into an ice ball.

source?

There were a few scientists who thought the effect of the burning wells would act as an analog for nuclear winter which was another Sagan cause.

 

[DiveCon]

Carl Sagan predicted in 1991 that the Gulf War oil field fires would freeze the planet into an ice ball.

source?

I watched him say it on television.

How old are you?

probably older than you
provide a source please
i tried to find one and could not

 

[whitehall]

Hidden? That's a bit misleading isn't it? The verb "hide" indicates an intelligent effort to remain out of sight. Maybe NASA is playing games to generate more funding. Just because our technology can't make out a thing quarter lightyear away it doesn' mean it's hidden.

 

[DiveCon]

Carl Sagan predicted in 1991 that the Gulf War oil field fires would freeze the planet into an ice ball.

source?

There were a few scientists who thought the effect of the burning wells would act as an analog for nuclear winter which was another Sagan cause.

i remember some making that claim, but i dont remember Sagan saying any such thing

 

[percysunshine]

source?

I watched him say it on television.

How old are you?

probably older than you
provide a source please
i tried to find one and could not

Check CNN. If they still have the tape and transcript.

 

[DiveCon]

I watched him say it on television.

How old are you?

probably older than you
provide a source please
i tried to find one and could not

Check CNN. If they still have the tape and transcript.

seems your memory is defective in several ways

i changed the search from your hyperbolic line to a more reasonable Kuwaiti oil fires and found this

During Operation Desert Storm, Dr. S. Fred Singer debated Carl Sagan on the impact of the Kuwaiti petroleum fires on the ABC News program Nightline. Sagan said we know from the nuclear winter investigation that the smoke would loft into the upper atmosphere and that he believed the net effects would be very similar to the explosion of the Indonesian volcano Tambora in 1815, which resulted in the year 1816 being known as the Year Without a Summer, in massive agricultural failures, in very serious human suffering and, in some cases, starvation.

 

[westwall]

source?

There were a few scientists who thought the effect of the burning wells would act as an analog for nuclear winter which was another Sagan cause.

i remember some making that claim, but i dont remember Sagan saying any such thing

Carl Sagan / Nuclear Winter -- 1983

 

[percysunshine]

probably older than you
provide a source please
i tried to find one and could not

Check CNN. If they still have the tape and transcript.

seems your memory is defective in several ways

i changed the search from your hyperbolic line to a more reasonable Kuwaiti oil fires and found this

During Operation Desert Storm, Dr. S. Fred Singer debated Carl Sagan on the impact of the Kuwaiti petroleum fires on the ABC News program Nightline. Sagan said we know from the nuclear winter investigation that the smoke would loft into the upper atmosphere and that he believed the net effects would be very similar to the explosion of the Indonesian volcano Tambora in 1815, which resulted in the year 1816 being known as the Year Without a Summer, in massive agricultural failures, in very serious human suffering and, in some cases, starvation.

See, I knew you could do it. Good job.

So I take it you survived the mass starvation part.

 

[westwall]

Check CNN. If they still have the tape and transcript.

seems your memory is defective in several ways

i changed the search from your hyperbolic line to a more reasonable Kuwaiti oil fires and found this

During Operation Desert Storm, Dr. S. Fred Singer debated Carl Sagan on the impact of the Kuwaiti petroleum fires on the ABC News program Nightline. Sagan said we know from the nuclear winter investigation that the smoke would loft into the upper atmosphere and that he believed the net effects would be very similar to the explosion of the Indonesian volcano Tambora in 1815, which resulted in the year 1816 being known as the Year Without a Summer, in massive agricultural failures, in very serious human suffering and, in some cases, starvation.

See, I knew you could do it. Good job.

So I take it you survived the mass starvation part.

Did you?

 

[DiveCon]

Check CNN. If they still have the tape and transcript.

seems your memory is defective in several ways

i changed the search from your hyperbolic line to a more reasonable Kuwaiti oil fires and found this

During Operation Desert Storm, Dr. S. Fred Singer debated Carl Sagan on the impact of the Kuwaiti petroleum fires on the ABC News program Nightline. Sagan said we know from the nuclear winter investigation that the smoke would loft into the upper atmosphere and that he believed the net effects would be very similar to the explosion of the Indonesian volcano Tambora in 1815, which resulted in the year 1816 being known as the Year Without a Summer, in massive agricultural failures, in very serious human suffering and, in some cases, starvation.

See, I knew you could do it. Good job.

So I take it you survived the mass starvation part.

that doesn't exactly support your claim

 

[American Horse]

I understood it that it could been seen, because you said it was massive. Or am I missing something here? If it can't be seen how do you know it's massive? and if it's massive how can it be hidden?

Ok, read carefully. It is surmised to be at least 6 times the size of Jupiter, to have the effect it does on the Oort Cloud, TNOs, The Kuiper Belt and the long long narrow orbits of comets, which should not be this way if there was no out side solar influence of some kind. The only thing that fits this is a Dark Jupiter, an object that is about 6 times the size of Jupiter's mass. Is that better?

Thanks,

Robert

Actually Robert, the Wise Telescope is hoped, when recent data is released in April, to show some visual indications of what is presently being named "Tyche" with infrared images; that expectation of detection is because it is four or five times warmer than Pluto because of residual heat, and perhaps also because of compressive heat.

At any rate confirmation of its existence hangs on that WISE data. Otherwise the theory is to explain the mystery of the 20% percent of comets which come from a high angle, which is an anomaly, and also the periodicity of extinctions of about 27 million years which are theorized to coincide with Tyche's orbit. A problem with that, though, is that Tyche's orbit should be affected by the passage of stars nearby during those long periods, and its orbit be altered by those passing stars. This would call into question the 27 MY period.

The non-anomalous comets which begin their fall into the inner solar system is based on theory of perturbation (disturbance) known as "the galactic tide theory," the explanation of which is implied in the name.

 

[Robert_Stephens]

At any rate confirmation of its existence hangs on that WISE data. Otherwise the theory is to explain the mystery of the 20% percent of comets which come from a high angle, which is an anomaly, and also the periodicity of extinctions of about 27 million years which are theorized to coincide with Tyche's orbit. A problem with that, though, is that Tyche's orbit should be affected by the passage of stars nearby during those long periods, and its orbit be altered by those passing stars. This would call into question the 27 MY period.

The non-anomalous comets which begin their fall into the inner solar system is based on theory of perturbation (disturbance) known as "the galactic tide theory," the explanation of which is implied in the name.

I do understand. However, any "stars" out side of Sol influence have nothing to do with Tyche's position or state or orbital configuration as they are too far away (4 LY, 13 LY, 29 LY, 27 LY). The orbital time line of Tyche is based on where it is assumed to be, in orbit around the sun and the only influence there would be the sun itself on what it is-- dark Jupiter or what have you.

WISE will yield much data on this and this is exciting.

Robert

 

[American Horse]

At any rate confirmation of its existence hangs on that WISE data. Otherwise the theory is to explain the mystery of the 20% percent of comets which come from a high angle, which is an anomaly, and also the periodicity of extinctions of about 27 million years which are theorized to coincide with Tyche's orbit. A problem with that, though, is that Tyche's orbit should be affected by the passage of stars nearby during those long periods, and its orbit be altered by those passing stars. This would call into question the 27 MY period.

The non-anomalous comets which begin their fall into the inner solar system is based on theory of perturbation (disturbance) known as "the galactic tide theory," the explanation of which is implied in the name.

I do understand. However, any "stars" out side of Sol influence have nothing to do with Tyche's position or state or orbital configuration as they are too far away (4 LY, 13 LY, 29 LY, 27 LY). The orbital time line of Tyche is based on where it is assumed to be, in orbit around the sun and the only influence there would be the sun itself on what it is-- dark Jupiter or what have you.

WISE will yield much data on this and this is exciting.

Robert

Robert, you need to take into account the period time frame of 27,000,000 years which it's orbit is impuited to take. That's a long time; but not so much astronomically. I recall a few years back in Astronomy Magazine, an article that showed in the future there would be numerous relative close passes from stars that might have an affect way out there where a body was in delicate balance and might be pulled one way or the other.

Our stellar neighborhood is a dynamic one. At one time our sun had some untold number of siblings. They are mostly long departed, but others have come into our vicinity to confuse our view of things. I just mention that last part to suggest that on a long astronomical scale, in our journey around the galaxy, which takes some 230,000,000 MY, things move around a lot.

You will find this interesting:

" - In the plane of the galaxy the Sun is located in the small spiral arm we call the Orion arm (or local arm) which is really just connection between the two nearest major spiral arms (the Sagitarius and Perseus arms). There is a neat page on these structures: SEDS Milky Way Spiral Structure page. We pass through a major spiral arm about every 100 million years, taking about 10 million years to go through . . . "

Curious About Astronomy: How often does the Sun pass through a spiral arm in the Milky Way?

 

[Douger]

Are any other of these celestial beings infested by murkins ?
Please inform.
Until then I'll continue life on the isthmus.........
Hears murkins (furiously typing a Google search)

 

[Robert_Stephens]

At any rate confirmation of its existence hangs on that WISE data. Otherwise the theory is to explain the mystery of the 20% percent of comets which come from a high angle, which is an anomaly, and also the periodicity of extinctions of about 27 million years which are theorized to coincide with Tyche's orbit. A problem with that, though, is that Tyche's orbit should be affected by the passage of stars nearby during those long periods, and its orbit be altered by those passing stars. This would call into question the 27 MY period.

The non-anomalous comets which begin their fall into the inner solar system is based on theory of perturbation (disturbance) known as "the galactic tide theory," the explanation of which is implied in the name.

I do understand. However, any "stars" out side of Sol influence have nothing to do with Tyche's position or state or orbital configuration as they are too far away (4 LY, 13 LY, 29 LY, 27 LY). The orbital time line of Tyche is based on where it is assumed to be, in orbit around the sun and the only influence there would be the sun itself on what it is-- dark Jupiter or what have you.

WISE will yield much data on this and this is exciting.

Robert

Robert, you need to take into account the period time frame of 27,000,000 years: that's a long time; but not so much astronomically. I recall a few years back in Astronomy Magazine, an article that showed there would be numerous relative close passes from stars that might have an affect way out there where a body was in delicate balance and might be pulled one way or the other.

Our stellar neighborhood is a dynamic one. At one time our sun had some untold number of siblings. They are mostly long departed, but others have come into our vicinity to confuse our view of things.

The orbital timeline is not subject to debate. If it is out there at about 1.5 to 1.7 LY from Sol, its orbital time line will be 27 M years.

If you are speaking 'stars' moving in and out of our Sol Space, that too is not likely, since anything close to something like that would destroy the chance of life to begin here, 4.3 billion years hence. What happens is within about 30 LY of us, enough foreign unknowns move and are swung out of normal orbiting due to any number of events, but they are fleeting or passing events.

But stars are rotating on their own axis, and the orbiting is fixed positions by the galactic influences of location. This s real overview stuff a nd not technical but its essentially the way its set up.

This is a good exchange.

Robert