Massachuettes orders residents to surrender bump stocks

[Wyatt earp]

That post doesn't help your cause..

Just saying

Maybe not but it's kinda true.
You gonna change avatars every day? ;-)

Let me guess you can't figure out my new avatar?

It's easy if you claim how old you are.


.

 

[Wyatt earp]

That post doesn't help your cause..

Just saying

Maybe not but it's kinda true.
You gonna change avatars every day? ;-)

Let me guess you can't figure out my new avatar?

It's easy if you claim how old you are.


.

 

[DrLove]

There is no need for anyone to have lager than a 15 round magazine

Agree - my Glock takes 17 but I rarely add more than 15 - Plenty
Would be happy to go to trade in my 17 mags for 15s

 

[DrLove]

That post doesn't help your cause..

Just saying

Maybe not but it's kinda true.
You gonna change avatars every day? ;-)

Let me guess you can't figure out my new avatar?

It's easy if you claim how old you are.

.

View attachment 173052

Hmmm - the url just goes to USMB .. is that you 40 years ago?

 

[Wyatt earp]

There is no need for anyone to have lager than a 15 round magazine

Agree - my Glock takes 17 but I rarely add more than 15 - Plenty
Would be happy to go to trade in my 17 mags for 15s

Why do you need more then one?

 

[DrLove]

There is no need for anyone to have lager than a 15 round magazine

Agree - my Glock takes 17 but I rarely add more than 15 - Plenty
Would be happy to go to trade in my 17 mags for 15s

Why do you need more then one?

Preload 3 for the range and have one at home for defensive rounds.

 

[Wyatt earp]

That post doesn't help your cause..

Just saying

Maybe not but it's kinda true.
You gonna change avatars every day? ;-)

Let me guess you can't figure out my new avatar?

It's easy if you claim how old you are.

.

View attachment 173052

Hmmm - the url just goes to USMB .. is that you 40 years ago?

You just told me your age..

And a liar you are

 

[Wyatt earp]

You don't even know my avatar is James dean?

 

[Flash]

If this is true, then why is there no credible effort to ratify a new amendment, to overturn the Second Amendment? As long as the Second Amendment stands, all of these measures are blatantly unconstitutional, and every act of government to enact and enforce them is an act of lawlessness and corruption.

By wise design, amending the Constitution is not a trivial or easy thing to do, but if there was really the sort of public support that this poll claims, then that would be enough to get it done.

Constitutional scholars (even Scalia) concur that amendments are not absolute rights. No changes are necessary for universal registration.

Scalia is not around to define what he said was "reasonable gun controls" so your interpretation is moot.

The Supreme Court also ruled that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right and that neither DC nor Chicago had the authority to deny that right to citizens.

You Moon Bats are often confused about things like this.

 

[DrLove]

Scalia is not around to define what he said was "reasonable gun controls" so your interpretation is moot.

The Supreme Court also ruled that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right and that neither DC nor Chicago had the authority to deny that right to citizens.

You Moon Bats are often confused about things like this.

We know what he said - study up
The Second Amendment Is Not Absolute

 

[Rustic]

There is no need for anyone to have lager than a 15 round magazine

Agree - my Glock takes 17 but I rarely add more than 15 - Plenty
Would be happy to go to trade in my 17 mags for 15s

That’s fine but you shouldn’t expect anyone else to

 

[xyz]

Bump stocks are not even weapons, they are attachments/accessories that can be fitted to some firearms.

I can see the reasoning behind making them illegal to sell, forcing people to give them up seems futile.

 

[HenryBHough]

Do you like it when people are slaughtered?

If they're only liberals then what's the downside?

 

[2aguy]

Magazine Capacity...again, lying to the uniformed in the poll question....

Have them read this, then ask the question.....

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

There is no need for anyone to have lager than a 15 round magazine

Need has nothing to do with it.

Afraid it does

Burden is on the state to prove that society has an overriding interest in banning an item for public safety
That interest can be negated by gun owners showing they need the item for personal safety

You do not "need" an RPG
Just because you want one is not reason enough to allow them to be sold

Guns in the hands of the law abiding is not a public safety issue.

Why have machine guns been banned for almost a hundred years?

They aren't banned.

 

[2aguy]

Yes....they lied to the people they polled, and they asked uninformed people these questions.......you have been shown how the actual questions that actually get to the truth behind these laws would come out differently...but you don't care about the truth...

You guys never have the attention span to dig deeper - It's ALL in there.
So don't talk to me about "truth"

https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us10122017_demos_U92pfwa.pdf/

Questions - See page 3 and after
https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us10122017_trends_U92pfwa.pdf/

Dumb shit......again, ask the questions with the truth....then get back to me...don't ask uninformed people questions that are lies, and then report the poll numbers...

 

[2aguy]

If this is true, then why is there no credible effort to ratify a new amendment, to overturn the Second Amendment? As long as the Second Amendment stands, all of these measures are blatantly unconstitutional, and every act of government to enact and enforce them is an act of lawlessness and corruption.

By wise design, amending the Constitution is not a trivial or easy thing to do, but if there was really the sort of public support that this poll claims, then that would be enough to get it done.

Constitutional scholars (even Scalia) concur that amendments are not absolute rights. No changes are necessary for universal registration.

And you are an idiot.......they are not absolute in that you can't hide criminal behavior behind them.......and you guys never explain how universal registration works. How does it stop criminals or mass shooters in such a way that it would allow you to force people to violate their 5th Amendment Rights against self incrimination .....

Since criminals do not have to register their illegal guns per Haynes v. United States, then obviously forcing law abiding people to register their legal guns would also be unConstitutional......moron.

The Fifth Amendment, Self-Incrimination, and Gun Registration

The Fifth Amendment, Self-Incrimination, and Gun Registration



by Clayton Cramer


A recurring question that we are asked, not only by gun control advocates, but even by a number of gun owners is, "What's wrong with mandatory gun registration?" Usually by the time we finish telling them about the Supreme Court decision U.S. v. Haynes (1968), they are laughing -- and they understand our objection to registration.

In Haynes v. U.S. (1968), a Miles Edward Haynes appealed his conviction for unlawful possession of an unregistered short-barreled shotgun. [1] His argument was ingenious: since he was a convicted felon at the time he was arrested on the shotgun charge, he could not legally possess a firearm. Haynes further argued that for a convicted felon to register a gun, especially a short-barreled shotgun, was effectively an announcement to the government that he was breaking the law. If he did register it, as 26 U.S.C. sec.5841 required, he was incriminating himself; but if he did not register it, the government would punish him for possessing an unregistered firearm -- a violation of 26 U.S.C. sec.5851. Consequently, his Fifth Amendment protection against self- incrimination ("No person... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself") was being violated -- he would be punished if he registered it, and punished if he did not register it. While the Court acknowledged that there were circumstances where a person might register such a weapon without having violated the prohibition on illegal possession or transfer, both the prosecution and the Court acknowledged such circumstances were "uncommon." [2] The Court concluded:

• 
  We hold that a proper claim of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination provides a full defense to prosecutions either for failure to register a firearm under sec.5841 or for possession of an unregistered firearm under sec.5851. [3]

This 8-1 decision (with only Chief Justice Earl Warren dissenting) is, depending on your view of Fifth Amendment, either a courageous application of the intent of the self-incrimination clause, or evidence that the Supreme Court had engaged in reductio ad absurdum of the Fifth Amendment. Under this ruling, a person illegally possessing a firearm, under either federal or state law, could not be punished for failing to register it. [4]

Consider a law that requires registration of firearms: a convicted felon can not be convicted for failing to register a gun, because it is illegal under Federal law for a felon to possess a firearm; but a person who can legally own a gun, and fails to register it, can be punished. In short, the person at whom, one presumes, such a registration law is aimed, is the one who cannot be punished, and yet, the person at whom such a registration law is not principally aimed (i.e., the law-abiding person), can be punished.

This is especially absurd for the statute under which Haynes was tried -- the National Firearms Act of 1934. This law was originally passed during the Depression, when heavily armed desperadoes roamed the nation, robbing banks and engaging in kidnap for ransom. The original intent of the National Firearms Act was to provide a method for locking up ex-cons that the government was unable to convict for breaking any other law. As Attorney General Homer Cummings described the purpose of the law, when testifying before Congress:

• 
  Now, you say that it is easy for criminals to get weapons. I know it, but I want to make it easy to convict them when they have the weapons. That is the point of it. I do not expect criminals to comply with this law; I do not expect the underworld to be going around giving their fingerprints and getting permits to carry these weapons, but I want them to be in a position, when I find such a person, to convict him because he has not complied.

During the same questioning, Cummings expressed his belief that, "I have no fear of the law-abiding citizen getting into trouble." Rep. Fred Vinson of Kentucky, while agreeing with Cummings' desire to have an additional tool for locking up gangsters, pointed out that many laws that sounded like good ideas when passed, were sometimes found "in the coolness and calmness of retrospect" to be somewhat different in their consequences. [5]

 

[2aguy]

If this is true, then why is there no credible effort to ratify a new amendment, to overturn the Second Amendment? As long as the Second Amendment stands, all of these measures are blatantly unconstitutional, and every act of government to enact and enforce them is an act of lawlessness and corruption.

By wise design, amending the Constitution is not a trivial or easy thing to do, but if there was really the sort of public support that this poll claims, then that would be enough to get it done.

Constitutional scholars (even Scalia) concur that amendments are not absolute rights. No changes are necessary for universal registration.

Scalia is not around to define what he said was "reasonable gun controls" so your interpretation is moot.

The Supreme Court also ruled that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right and that neither DC nor Chicago had the authority to deny that right to citizens.

You Moon Bats are often confused about things like this.

This is exactly what Scalia wrote, which they always ignore..........trying to hide what he said so they can just grab as a many guns as they can under the "not unlimited" mantra...

Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

What does he say....

A state might be able to ban concealed carry, but not open carry.

Felons and mentally ill can be barred from guns.

Sensitive places can be protected.....government buildings.

And business practice laws also apply to guns....

That is all that is covered by "Not Unlimited".....everything else is crap...

 

[DrLove]

And you are an idiot.......they are not absolute in that you can't hide criminal behavior behind them.......and you guys never explain how universal registration works. How does it stop criminals or mass shooters in such a way that it would allow you to force people to violate their 5th Amendment Rights against self incrimination .....

Since criminals do not have to register their illegal guns per Haynes v. United States, then obviously forcing law abiding people to register their legal guns would also be unConstitutional......moron.

Criminals often buy their guns from unlicensed dealers at gun shows and online sellers such as Armslist.com - Shut those two avenues down and you've pretty much created universal registration......moron.

 

[2aguy]

Scalia is not around to define what he said was "reasonable gun controls" so your interpretation is moot.

The Supreme Court also ruled that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right and that neither DC nor Chicago had the authority to deny that right to citizens.

You Moon Bats are often confused about things like this.

We know what he said - study up
The Second Amendment Is Not Absolute

Yes....we know what he said...moron...

Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

What does he say....

A state might be able to ban concealed carry, but not open carry.

Felons and mentally ill can be barred from guns.

Sensitive places can be protected.....government buildings.

And business practice laws also apply to guns sales....

That is all that is covered by "Not Unlimited".....everything else is crap...

 

[2aguy]

And you are an idiot.......they are not absolute in that you can't hide criminal behavior behind them.......and you guys never explain how universal registration works. How does it stop criminals or mass shooters in such a way that it would allow you to force people to violate their 5th Amendment Rights against self incrimination .....

Since criminals do not have to register their illegal guns per Haynes v. United States, then obviously forcing law abiding people to register their legal guns would also be unConstitutional......moron.

Criminals often buy their guns from unlicensed dealers at gun shows and online sellers such as Armslist.com - Shut those two avenues down and you've pretty much created universal registration......moron.

No...moron.....again, read Haynes v. United States...it is unConstitutional...