Martha McSally is still telling people she voted to protect people with pre-existing conditions

[Tommy Tainant]

Sick people should not have to get stressed over paying a bill.

Why not?

Because there is no need. Across the civilised world healthcare is recognised as a function of government.

Why healthcare and not the rest of life's necessities? Is there any principle preventing your point of view from establishing government control over every. single. thing?

Why do you choose to live as slaves to the insurance companies ?

I don't know. People have their reasons. But it IS a choice. You don't have to deal with insurance companies if you don't want to. We don't get such an option with government.

We have the option of pivate health as well. Most people dont bother as it isnt needed. The NHS is essentially a large insurance scheme and because of economies of scale it costs us a fraction of what you pay.

I think that American opposition to common sense healthcare is ideological rather than practical. We expect government to provide police,fire service,defence and education. Its because it is far more cost effective as we are not paying dividends to investors.

I understand that you can get great healthcare if you can afford it but there is a better way.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Sick people should not have to get stressed over paying a bill.

Why not?

Because there is no need. Across the civilised world healthcare is recognised as a function of government.

Why healthcare and not the rest of life's necessities? Is there any principle preventing your point of view from establishing government control over every. single. thing?

Why do you choose to live as slaves to the insurance companies ?

I don't know. People have their reasons. But it IS a choice. You don't have to deal with insurance companies if you don't want to. We don't get such an option with government.

We have the option of pivate health as well. Most people dont bother as it isnt needed. The NHS is essentially a large insurance scheme and because of economies of scale it costs us a fraction of what you pay.

I think that American opposition to common sense healthcare is ideological rather than practical. We expect government to provide police,fire service,defence and education. Its because it is far more cost effective as we are not paying dividends to investors.

I understand that you can get great healthcare if you can afford it but there is a better way.

The NHS is essentially a large insurance scheme and because of economies of scale it costs us a fraction of what you pay.

Exactly!
And if you have to wait 3 months for an x-ray and another 6 months for surgery, no biggie, eh?

 

[dblack]

We expect government to provide police,fire service,defence and education. Its because it is far more cost effective as we are not paying dividends to investors.

Police and defense are government services, rather than private businesses, because they require consensus, not because its more cost effective. Fire service and education are local services, and in the case of fire protection, not always paid for via government.

You don't seem to have much appreciation for the difference between mandating services with government, and letting people deal with it on their own, but it's huge. Freedom is a real thing, and some of us still value it.

I understand that you can get great healthcare if you can afford it but there is a better way.

By getting someone else to pay for it? I mean, that's really all we're talking about, right?

 

[dblack]

I understand how you can claim that the republicans have not voted to end PE condition limitations, even though they are defunding ACA, which is the same thing. That is what we call a "Trumpism". It is like cutting the military budget to zero, while claiming that you did not abolish the military. I understand how you can use Trumpisms, and think that they make sense. However, Trumpisms don't work with democrats. They only work with Trump supporters.

Well, you're mincing words here, aren't you? And sliding in an assumption unchecked. When Republicans say they've voted to protect people with pre-existing conditions, they aren't talking about the requirement for insurance companies to them. They are offering different ways to deal with the problem. You're assuming that mandates to insurance companies are the only way to do this. Clearly, that's not true.

I have never seen an ObamaCare replacement bill from the GOP.

Ever.

Over eight years now since ObamaCare became law, and the GOP has yet to puke up a replacement.

I don't want them to replace it. I want them to repeal it.
But they haven't done that either.

You've been hoaxed and you STILL have not caught on. That is positively amazing.

Trumpies are the most submissive people I have seen in my entire life.

Where did you get the idea that I'm a Trump supporter?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

We expect government to provide police,fire service,defence and education. Its because it is far more cost effective as we are not paying dividends to investors.

Police and defense are government services, rather than private businesses, because they require consensus, not because its more cost effective. Fire service and education are local services, and in the case of fire protection, not always paid for via government.

You don't seem to have much appreciation for the difference between mandating services with government, and letting people deal with it on their own, but it's huge. Freedom is a real thing, and some of us still value it.

I understand that you can get great healthcare if you can afford it but there is a better way.

By getting someone else to pay for it? I mean, that's really all we're talking about, right?

All insurance is "paid" for by someone else. You buy a share of that with your pemium. The more people that pay in the cheaper it gets. Its not complicated.

 

[dblack]

We expect government to provide police,fire service,defence and education. Its because it is far more cost effective as we are not paying dividends to investors.

Police and defense are government services, rather than private businesses, because they require consensus, not because its more cost effective. Fire service and education are local services, and in the case of fire protection, not always paid for via government.

You don't seem to have much appreciation for the difference between mandating services with government, and letting people deal with it on their own, but it's huge. Freedom is a real thing, and some of us still value it.

I understand that you can get great healthcare if you can afford it but there is a better way.

By getting someone else to pay for it? I mean, that's really all we're talking about, right?

All insurance is "paid" for by someone else. You buy a share of that with your pemium. The more people that pay in the cheaper it gets. Its not complicated.

Yes, but in a free market you can choose which insurance company - which group of 'co-payers' - you want to associate with. You can choose how much insurance you want. You can even choose to avoid insurance altogether. All those choices are lost from you when the government takes over. You're stuck with whatever kind of insurance the majority wants - and you'll pay for it whether you want it or not.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

We expect government to provide police,fire service,defence and education. Its because it is far more cost effective as we are not paying dividends to investors.

Police and defense are government services, rather than private businesses, because they require consensus, not because its more cost effective. Fire service and education are local services, and in the case of fire protection, not always paid for via government.

You don't seem to have much appreciation for the difference between mandating services with government, and letting people deal with it on their own, but it's huge. Freedom is a real thing, and some of us still value it.

I understand that you can get great healthcare if you can afford it but there is a better way.

By getting someone else to pay for it? I mean, that's really all we're talking about, right?

All insurance is "paid" for by someone else. You buy a share of that with your pemium. The more people that pay in the cheaper it gets. Its not complicated.

Yes, but in a free market you can choose which insurance company - which group of 'co-payers' - you want to associate with. You can choose how much insurance you want. You can even choose to avoid insurance altogether. All those choices are lost from you when the government takes over. You're stuck with whatever kind of insurance the majority wants - and you'll pay for it whether you want it or not.

The small price you pay is a small price you pay for peace of mind.If you dont like it you can vote it out.

 

[dblack]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

Compromise is the price of living in a community. Taxation isnt a pick and mix process. I hate my tax money paying for nuclear bombs but there you go.
Most of the world sees healthcare as a necessity. It can best be provided by the state due to the economies of scale. Its also an important part of the social fabric.,the safety net, civilising. It is about ensuring that people are cared for, rich or poor. It binds us together as a people.
I understand your freedom argument and the importance of choice. I have choice because I can pay and go private if I want to . But freedom to lose my house paying for cancer treatment is something that I will pass on. Its brutal.

 

[easyt65]

So she voted against the disastrous Obamacare law, the one Democrats have been trying to blame the GOP for despite the fact that THEY rammed it down the throats of the majority of Americans who opposed it?!

Got it....

 

[SweetSue92]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

Compromise is the price of living in a community. Taxation isnt a pick and mix process. I hate my tax money paying for nuclear bombs but there you go.
Most of the world sees healthcare as a necessity. It can best be provided by the state due to the economies of scale. Its also an important part of the social fabric.,the safety net, civilising. It is about ensuring that people are cared for, rich or poor. It binds us together as a people.
I understand your freedom argument and the importance of choice. I have choice because I can pay and go private if I want to . But freedom to lose my house paying for cancer treatment is something that I will pass on. Its brutal.

Brits used to brag about their great NHS but I noticed they don't do that anymore. Not since people are almost literally stacked up in the ER hallways and waiting 5 hours for ambulances.

Huh.

It's like no one could have ever predicted that!!! Oh wait

 

[Tommy Tainant]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

Compromise is the price of living in a community. Taxation isnt a pick and mix process. I hate my tax money paying for nuclear bombs but there you go.
Most of the world sees healthcare as a necessity. It can best be provided by the state due to the economies of scale. Its also an important part of the social fabric.,the safety net, civilising. It is about ensuring that people are cared for, rich or poor. It binds us together as a people.
I understand your freedom argument and the importance of choice. I have choice because I can pay and go private if I want to . But freedom to lose my house paying for cancer treatment is something that I will pass on. Its brutal.

Brits used to brag about their great NHS but I noticed they don't do that anymore. Not since people are almost literally stacked up in the ER hallways and waiting 5 hours for ambulances.

Huh.

It's like no one could have ever predicted that!!! Oh wait

The NHS is a magnificent achievement and the cornerstone of our civilisation. Its under threat from pople who want to introduce an american style system in the uk. They are strangling it of cash. We also have a lack of staff due to brexit.

 

[SweetSue92]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

Compromise is the price of living in a community. Taxation isnt a pick and mix process. I hate my tax money paying for nuclear bombs but there you go.
Most of the world sees healthcare as a necessity. It can best be provided by the state due to the economies of scale. Its also an important part of the social fabric.,the safety net, civilising. It is about ensuring that people are cared for, rich or poor. It binds us together as a people.
I understand your freedom argument and the importance of choice. I have choice because I can pay and go private if I want to . But freedom to lose my house paying for cancer treatment is something that I will pass on. Its brutal.

Brits used to brag about their great NHS but I noticed they don't do that anymore. Not since people are almost literally stacked up in the ER hallways and waiting 5 hours for ambulances.

Huh.

It's like no one could have ever predicted that!!! Oh wait

The NHS is a magnificent achievement and the cornerstone of our civilisation. Its under threat from pople who want to introduce an american style system in the uk. They are strangling it of cash. We also have a lack of staff due to brexit.

That made me actually laugh right out loud....thanks for that

 

[Tommy Tainant]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

Compromise is the price of living in a community. Taxation isnt a pick and mix process. I hate my tax money paying for nuclear bombs but there you go.
Most of the world sees healthcare as a necessity. It can best be provided by the state due to the economies of scale. Its also an important part of the social fabric.,the safety net, civilising. It is about ensuring that people are cared for, rich or poor. It binds us together as a people.
I understand your freedom argument and the importance of choice. I have choice because I can pay and go private if I want to . But freedom to lose my house paying for cancer treatment is something that I will pass on. Its brutal.

Brits used to brag about their great NHS but I noticed they don't do that anymore. Not since people are almost literally stacked up in the ER hallways and waiting 5 hours for ambulances.

Huh.

It's like no one could have ever predicted that!!! Oh wait

The NHS is a magnificent achievement and the cornerstone of our civilisation. Its under threat from pople who want to introduce an american style system in the uk. They are strangling it of cash. We also have a lack of staff due to brexit.

That made me actually laugh right out loud....thanks for that

Glad I could help.

 

[dblack]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

Compromise is the price of living in a community. Taxation isnt a pick and mix process. I hate my tax money paying for nuclear bombs but there you go.
Most of the world sees healthcare as a necessity. It can best be provided by the state due to the economies of scale. Its also an important part of the social fabric.,the safety net, civilising. It is about ensuring that people are cared for, rich or poor. It binds us together as a people.
I understand your freedom argument and the importance of choice. I have choice because I can pay and go private if I want to . But freedom to lose my house paying for cancer treatment is something that I will pass on. Its brutal.

You're not talking about compromise. You're talking about coercion. You're talking about the majority deciding how it's going to be and ramming it down the throat of the rest of us. The founders of our nation - not yours - wrote a constitution to prevent people from abusing government in that way.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you dont like it you can vote it out.

Not if you're in the minority.

I think one reason I have a hard time discussing politics with people like you is that I simply don't share your faith in majority rule as a virtue. There is nothing inherently virtuous or righteous about democracy. It's a reasonable way to make a decision when conformity is required, when diversity can't be tolerated, when it's truly necessary for everyone to be on the same page. When conformity isn't necessary, I prefer freedom.

That's nothing about health care that makes it necessary to force everyone to do it the same way.

Compromise is the price of living in a community. Taxation isnt a pick and mix process. I hate my tax money paying for nuclear bombs but there you go.
Most of the world sees healthcare as a necessity. It can best be provided by the state due to the economies of scale. Its also an important part of the social fabric.,the safety net, civilising. It is about ensuring that people are cared for, rich or poor. It binds us together as a people.
I understand your freedom argument and the importance of choice. I have choice because I can pay and go private if I want to . But freedom to lose my house paying for cancer treatment is something that I will pass on. Its brutal.

Brits used to brag about their great NHS but I noticed they don't do that anymore. Not since people are almost literally stacked up in the ER hallways and waiting 5 hours for ambulances.

Huh.

It's like no one could have ever predicted that!!! Oh wait

The NHS is a magnificent achievement and the cornerstone of our civilisation. Its under threat from pople who want to introduce an american style system in the uk. They are strangling it of cash. We also have a lack of staff due to brexit.

The NHS is a magnificent achievement and the cornerstone of our civilisation.

Exactly!
And if "civilisation" means we have to wait 3 months to get an x-ray and another 6 months for surgery, well, stiff upper lip and all, eh?

 

[Dana7360]

The very best it can be is repealed. Unless you have a lot of stock in insurance companies. Is that your angle?

Really? And replace it with what? Please enlighten us...

Replace it with nothing. And then start busting up all the ill-conceived tax and regulatory policies that painted us into this corner in the first place.

Seriously, employer-provided health care was a bad idea. The dilemma of being trapped at a job because of the dependency on health insurance isn't an unfortunate side-effect. It's the fucking point. It's why employers and government have colluded to create the system in the first place. We need to tear it down and deal with the fact that we have to provide for our own health care, just like we provide for our other needs. The desperate desire to have someone else pay the bills is turning us into slaves.

A heart/lung transplant costs over $3,000,000. Nine months of fighting leukemia would cost you more than you 30 year mortgage. So will open heart surgery.

Yes. Those are things most of us can't afford. Most of us won't get them. Just like most of us won't own a mansion or a yacht. Your point?

Most people don't think they will be faced with a life threatening medical condition.

I was one of them. I went through most of my life very healthy with very few problems. I broke my ankle a couple time and stuff like that but nothing major.

But anyone can be in a car accident. Anyone can experience any kind of accident that will cause them to have a preexisting condition.

Blink your eyes. That's how fast everything can change. That's how fast you can go from a healthy person to one in a coma. Or to one fighting for their life.

No one knows what will happen tomorrow or even the next hour.

Millions of people have had cancer and either died from it or beat it.

Millions of people have heart disease it's one of the top killers in America.

Millions of people have strokes and many of other problems that we all can have especially when we get past age 50.

Millions of people are born with problems too.

Just saying most won't get them is a cop out and a lie.

Everyone will have a preexisting condition at one point in their lives. Since that decision will be up to the insurance companies again, a sinus infection can be classified as a preexisting condition and the person is kicked off insurance and never is able to get it again because they have a record of being kicked off insurance for a preexisting condition. Or lose their insurance through no fault of their own, like divorce, and no insurance company will cover them again.

That happened to a friend of mine. She had a non cancerous cyst removed from her breast in the 80s. She got divorce in 2005. No insurance company would sell her a policy.

She ended up with diverticulitis in 2010. She nearly died. The only reason why she nearly died is because no one would sell her insurance and she couldn't see a doctor. I got her to an ER in time. She ended up being in the hospital for 2 months with several surgeries. But because of the law at the time all the hospital could do was stabilize her and refer her to a doctor so her problem wasn't fixed. They saved life but didn't fix the problem so for years after that she was in and out of the hospital with the problem. She ended up with a hospital bill in the hundreds of thousands.

When Obamacare made it possible for her to buy insurance. She immediately did.

Republicans want to go back to those days with tens of thousands of Americans dying needless early deaths every year.

Using a lame cop out excuse that not many do is a lie and an excuse to allow people to be discriminated again so that insurance companies can get richer.

 

[Dana7360]

I understand how you can claim that the republicans have not voted to end PE condition limitations, even though they are defunding ACA, which is the same thing. That is what we call a "Trumpism". It is like cutting the military budget to zero, while claiming that you did not abolish the military. I understand how you can use Trumpisms, and think that they make sense. However, Trumpisms don't work with democrats. They only work with Trump supporters.

Well, you're mincing words here, aren't you? And sliding in an assumption unchecked. When Republicans say they've voted to protect people with pre-existing conditions, they aren't talking about the requirement for insurance companies to them. They are offering different ways to deal with the problem. You're assuming that mandates to insurance companies are the only way to do this. Clearly, that's not true.

This will be my 5th time asking on this thread just what the GOP is suggesting to prevent Pre-existing conditions limitations.

The high risk pools was one proposal. But I don't really take the Republican seriously on this issue. They said they'd repeal ACA, but when it came to a real vote, they couldn't quite bring themselves to do it. They realize that controlling health care gives them incredible power.

High risk pools cause those with preexisting conditions to pay much more for their insurance. In fact it's priced so high a person needs to be rich to afford it.

If it's too high for most to afford it then there is no coverage for those with preexisting conditions.

If a person can't pay the premiums because they're too high that still discriminates against those with preexisting conditions. It still leaves millions without insurance and proper health care.

 

[dblack]

Most people don't think they will be faced with a life threatening medical condition.
...
Just saying most won't get them is a cop out and a lie.

Who is saying that? Every single one of us will be faced with a life threatening medical condition, and I think we're all quite aware of that.

Everyone will have a preexisting condition at one point in their lives.
...
Using a lame cop out excuse that not many do is a lie and an excuse to allow people to be discriminated again so that insurance companies can get richer.

Again, I'm not making that excuse. I'm just pointing out that not everyone can afford everything. And, in fact, all of us will face a point where we don't have enough money for the health care necessary to keep us alive. You're argument isn't political, it's existential.

 

[dblack]

High risk pools cause those with preexisting conditions to pay much more for their insurance. In fact it's priced so high a person needs to be rich to afford it.

If it's too high for most to afford it then there is no coverage for those with preexisting conditions.

If a person can't pay the premiums because they're too high that still discriminates against those with preexisting conditions. It still leaves millions without insurance and proper health care.

Are you invoking "discrimination" now?? What the hell does that even mean? How does it apply?