Man tries to hire killer - to kill unborn baby

[dmp]

Stillbirth.

That reply to her question is NO better than had you replied with "I like cake."

You've simply given up trying.

 

[nt250]

That reply to her question is NO better than had you replied with "I like cake."

You've simply given up trying.

You really think so? Hmmm. That's interesting because it goes to the heart of the entire abortion debate. Until a baby is born there is no guarantee that it will be.

I have a co-worker right now whose wife is pregnant for the 5th time. She's miscarried every previous pregnancy. The last one was 2 years ago and she made it all the way to 6 1/2 months before she lost it. This one is going very well. She's a little more than 7 months now, and it's looking pretty good. She's a fucking basket case, but what woman in that position wouldn't be? She's convinced something will go wrong, that she will lose this one, too, and her husband is pretty much beside himself because he doesn't know what to do or say to make her feel better. And, of course, he's worried, too.

He told me the other day that they were at a family gathering when a woman told his wife about a friend of hers who had a healthy pregnancy right up until the birth. The cord got wrapped around the babies neck and it was stillborn. He wanted to fucking kill this woman. They had finaly made it past the point when she lost the last baby, they were looking at only a couple of more weeks until, even if something did do wrong this time, the baby had a good chance of surviving, and this idiot has to tell his wife that. She was just starting to relax. Now she's total nervious wreck again.

Why do women do that to pregnant women? They love to tell pregnant women any horror story they can come up with. I was so fucking scared of childbirth that by the time I went into labor all I wanted was a 2X4 upside the head because of all the horror stories other women reveled in telling me.

I was serious. Birth is the only true proof of life.

 

[dmp]

Until a baby is born there is no guarantee that it will be.

It's not being 'born' that makes one human, dear. Get over that idea and you'll be okay.

 

[Dr Grump]

It's not being 'born' that makes one human, dear. Get over that idea and you'll be okay.

In your opinion...

 

[nt250]

It's not being 'born' that makes one human, dear. Get over that idea and you'll be okay.

Get over yourself and you'll be OK.

The only way your argument makes any sense at all is if a woman never gives birth.

You can't get around that, and you don't care, because your argument has nothing to do with life at all. It has everything to do with being a busy body religious fanatic who can't possibly comprehend the fact that what you believe doesn't matter when it come to the private decisions of others.

You pro-lifers talk yourselves into circles and then get pissed when it's pointed out that your own arguments are senseless. Oh, but you're religious, so senseless ideas are just normal for you.

 

[Nienna]

Scientifically it is a fetus not a human baby. They are two different terms. One of the problems is when does a fetus become a baby? Peoples' opinions differ. And without a doubt, the vast majority of pro-lifers hold their opinions due to their religious belief - this board being but a prime example.

I agree that they are different terms. However, they describe the same living organism. "Fetus," "newborn," "teenager," "senior citizen"... these terms all apply to the SAME living organism, in different stages of development.

 

[Dr Grump]

I agree that they are different terms. However, they describe the same living organism. "Fetus," "newborn," "teenager," "senior citizen"... these terms all apply to the SAME living organism, in different stages of development.

And there lies the rub....a fetus is not considerd by nature to be ready to be born into the human world, so therefore is it to be considered in the same breath as a newborn? Some say yes, others no.

 

[Nienna]

By the way, you should stick tothe "fetus is living" argument and forget the whole "human" argument. Women don't gestate cats, so you're really getting WAY off on this one.

Oh, good, we're agreed that it's ALIVE. I have heard people argue that it isn't.

 

[nt250]

I agree that they are different terms. However, they describe the same living organism. "Fetus," "newborn," "teenager," "senior citizen"... these terms all apply to the SAME living organism, in different stages of development.

No, they don't. You can't have a "newborn" without it being born, and there is no way to get from one stage to the next without that initial birth taking place.

Give it up Nienna. Your only valid argument is "when does a human soul enter a body"? You believe it happens at conception. You are more than entitled to believe that. But you are not entitled to tell me what I'm supposed to believe.

The problem with people like you is that you see people like me, who support abortion rights, as advocating abortion*. Most people don't advocate abortion. They just want to keep it safe and legal, and they want people like you to mind your own business about it.



(*I actually do advocate abortion because I don't know why anyone would want kids on purpose, but that's just me. I hate kids. I think anyone who has kids on purpose is nuts.)

 

[Dr Grump]

Oh, good, we're agreed that it's ALIVE. I have heard people argue that it isn't.

I think you'll find where we disagree is whether it is a human. I think not. You probably do. My opinion is more based on nature, yours is probably based on nature and religion. I don't believe in souls, you probably do. having said all this, any woman who comes to me pregnant and asks me what to do, I'd tell her to have the kid. If she can't afford to keep the child, give it up for adoption. Then again, if she had an abortion, it wouldn't affect my relationship with her, and I wouldn't think any less of her.

 

[nt250]

Oh, good, we're agreed that it's ALIVE. I have heard people argue that it isn't.

Of course it's alive. So are tumors. Tumors have teeth and blood vessles. Don't you ever watch Discovery Health Channel?

 

[MtnBiker]

From the original post, had the murder been committed, should there be a conviction of 1 or 2 murders?

 

[Nienna]

You really think so? Hmmm. That's interesting because it goes to the heart of the entire abortion debate. Until a baby is born there is no guarantee that it will be.

Being born is just a change of location. It is still the SAME LIVING organism that is was inside the womb.

I am sorry to hear about your coworker. You can tell her I had four healthy births. My first baby was a near tragedy--- for both me and her. Everything turned out just fine. Many times, things DO work out.

 

[Dr Grump]

From the original post, had the murder been committed, should there be a conviction of 1 or 2 murders?

Scott Peterson was convicted of two, no? It's a hard question...What if she was six weeks gone but DIDN'T know she was pregnant, but an autopsy found she was?

 

[MtnBiker]

Scott Peterson was convicted of two, no? It's a hard question...What if she was six weeks gone but DIDN'T know she was pregnant, but an autopsy found she was?

What does the law say?

 

[Annie]

I think you'll find where we disagree is whether it is a human. I think not. You probably do. My opinion is more based on nature, yours is probably based on nature and religion. I don't believe in souls, you probably do. having said all this, any woman who comes to me pregnant and asks me what to do, I'd tell her to have the kid. If she can't afford to keep the child, give it up for adoption. Then again, if she had an abortion, it wouldn't affect my relationship with her, and I wouldn't think any less of her.

I do believe in a soul. I do believe the fetus is human. If a pregnant someone asked me I'd say, 'have the baby, if you need help to get through the pregnancy and want to keep the baby, I'll help you find the help.' If she wanted to put the baby up for adoption, I'd do what I could to support that decision too-including helping her maintain the ability for open adoption.

However, if someone asked me to support an abortion, I couldn't. If someone tells me that years ago they had an abortion and need help in dealing with the guilt, I would. Our society has been sending the message that this 'choice' is fine, for over 40 years. While I think it's murder, that hasn't been the message, but it seems that many that have excercised the choice have come to the conclusion that the message is wrong. I've no clue to what God's judgement on that would be, just like a whole bunch of other questions. I'm not God, just try to be the best person I can.

 

[nt250]

Being born is just a change of location. It is still the SAME LIVING organism that is was inside the womb.

I am sorry to hear about your coworker. You can tell her I had four healthy births. My first baby was a near tragedy--- for both me and her. Everything turned out just fine. Many times, things DO work out.

I hope it works out. The poor guy is beside himself with worry. He's 45, this is his second marriage and he didn't have any kids with his first wife. They kind of feel like this is their last chance. If anything goes wrong this time I don't know how either one of them are going to be able to cope with it.

I think she should have a c-section, but he said she's more afraid of that than she is of anything going wrong at the very end.

Shit. My baby just got caught on the lip of the cervix and if my doctor hadn't reached in with his bare hands and pulled her out by the head she would have been born dead, or severly retarded. Instead she just had this bump on her head that went away after a couple of years.

You never know.

 

[Nienna]

No, they don't. You can't have a "newborn" without it being born, and there is no way to get from one stage to the next without that initial birth taking place.

Does one become a "person" when one moves from Montana to Wisconsin? Birth is little more than a change of location.

Give it up Nienna. Your only valid argument is "when does a human soul enter a body"? You believe it happens at conception. You are more than entitled to believe that. But you are not entitled to tell me what I'm supposed to believe.

I am not arguing about when a soul enters a body. You and Jillian are the ones who keep throwing that out there. I am arguing about when a human organism should have the legal status of "personhood" bestowed upon it. Conception is the most nonarbitrary point at which this legal status could be given.

The problem with people like you is that you see people like me, who support abortion rights, as advocating abortion*. Most people don't advocate abortion. They just want to keep it safe and legal, and they want people like you to mind your own business about it.

(*I actually do advocate abortion because I don't know why anyone would want kids on purpose, but that's just me. I hate kids. I think anyone who has kids on purpose is nuts.)

Actually, I completely understand that most people see abortion as a bad or difficult thing, even those who advocate abortion rights. The problem with "people like you" is that you cannot see that there is another person involved in this issue, who deserves a chance to grow up to have a taste of autonomy in his OWN life.

 

[Nienna]

And there lies the rub....a fetus is not considerd by nature to be ready to be born into the human world, so therefore is it to be considered in the same breath as a newborn? Some say yes, others no.

Can a newborn survive, on its own, in the "human" world?

 

[dilloduck]

No----It's NOT totally untrue. Women HAVE had abortions due to outside pressure and regret until this day. Reproductive choice is all about changing the natural process of life so women can somehow feel more "equal" to men.
Religion and science have only served to confuse the real issue.

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