Lyn Cheney takes on left wing over waterboarding & WINS!

[Ravi]

My position on waterboarding is that it should be used as a last resort after all other means of interrogation have failed or reached an impasse. I do not support getting to a "dead end" with a prisoner.

I understand that it is difficult to discern truth from fiction when answers are being provided in this manner, but it is not impossible for trained interrogators to do this task. If the choice is nothing, or sift through the scraps, well nobody ever promised you a rose garden. Start sifting.

As between some short period (no matter how repeated) of discomfort and the loss of one life, it's no contest. Get that nose prepared to receive some water.

One final point, if ole Khelid went through this 183 times, it can't be too fucking terrifying. Otherwise, he would have started blabbing his fool head off long before they ever got to 50.

Not really. Remember........they have a completely different culture than ours, and believe it is "manly" to stand up to the Westerners.

By the way.........saw a news article a couple of years back..........It seems that there was a Marine running around, handing out dinar and shekels to all the townspeople. He also took candy for the kids, as well as got the rest of his unit to do the same. They also bought locally.

Know what he called the money? "Paper bullets", meaning that you can get more (and better) information with a little compassion, rather than the shit that Bush Jr. and Cheney threw out.

By the way, personally, I'd like to see those two, RumsFAILED and a couple others thrown into Spandau. We could try them at the Hague.

Oh yeah..........as far as what to do with the terrorists? Well........there's a lot of room there, so they could go as well. Lock Cheney and Bush up with the terrorists. Why? Simple........the atrocities that have been done by 44's admin, as well as what the Taliban have done, well...........that qualifies them for crimes against humanity, and they've affected the whole world.

After all.......it's what they did to the Nazis.

And......just a couple of weeks ago, when the shit hit the fan on this issue, I heard SEVERAL Generals (most were 2-3 star), who stated that you can get more out of someone with a smoke and some chow, as well as a medic, than you can get from any amount of waterboarding.

Oh yeah.........it will be a hell of a lot more accurate as well. Take care of someone's needs (medical, chow), provide them with a place to feel safe, and then ask what is going on and offer to help them.

Most people will take that deal.

Besides........Pol Pot invented waterboarding as a way to get false confessions in North Korea.

How is it possible that it's accurate again? Much easier to leave the gate open and shoot 'em as they try to escape.

Of course none of that responds to what I said in my post. I said waterboarding should be used as a last resort after all other methods have failed. If you can develop repore or bribe them or take away annoyances and get them to talk, fine. This isn't about retribution, it's about intel. But, if you've pulled everything out of your bag o'tricks and you still can't get the info....it's time to bring out the big guns.

Pol Pot didn't invent waterboarding. He may have used it, but it's older than him. Also, be careful when you start throwing the label, "waterboarding" on things that were done other places. Especially in the Orient. They used several different things that have been referred to as waterboarding but have almost nothing to do with what we were doing to HVTs.

One was the Japanese would shove a hose down someones throat and fill their belly with water. Then they would place a board across the engorged belly and two Japanese would use it as a see-saw. The person was questioned until they died, usually of a ruptured stomach. Now that's torture.

What if there's nothing to be gotten.

 

[rayboyusmc]

To say that because we train our soldiers to resist torture by subjecting them to simulated torture to prepare them for real torture, that the method we use is not torture could only be stated by a Cheney. If you really fall for this one, you are living in a dream world.

She didn't win anything. And sooner or later her daddy will be prosecuted for using torture to try and prove a link between Saddam and 9-11, like he deserves to be.

The right is more denial impaired over this than any lefty ever was over Billy's BJ perjury.

 

[Yurt]

Not really. Remember........they have a completely different culture than ours, and believe it is "manly" to stand up to the Westerners.

By the way.........saw a news article a couple of years back..........It seems that there was a Marine running around, handing out dinar and shekels to all the townspeople. He also took candy for the kids, as well as got the rest of his unit to do the same. They also bought locally.

Know what he called the money? "Paper bullets", meaning that you can get more (and better) information with a little compassion, rather than the shit that Bush Jr. and Cheney threw out.

By the way, personally, I'd like to see those two, RumsFAILED and a couple others thrown into Spandau. We could try them at the Hague.

Oh yeah..........as far as what to do with the terrorists? Well........there's a lot of room there, so they could go as well. Lock Cheney and Bush up with the terrorists. Why? Simple........the atrocities that have been done by 44's admin, as well as what the Taliban have done, well...........that qualifies them for crimes against humanity, and they've affected the whole world.

After all.......it's what they did to the Nazis.

And......just a couple of weeks ago, when the shit hit the fan on this issue, I heard SEVERAL Generals (most were 2-3 star), who stated that you can get more out of someone with a smoke and some chow, as well as a medic, than you can get from any amount of waterboarding.

Oh yeah.........it will be a hell of a lot more accurate as well. Take care of someone's needs (medical, chow), provide them with a place to feel safe, and then ask what is going on and offer to help them.

Most people will take that deal.

Besides........Pol Pot invented waterboarding as a way to get false confessions in North Korea.

How is it possible that it's accurate again? Much easier to leave the gate open and shoot 'em as they try to escape.

Of course none of that responds to what I said in my post. I said waterboarding should be used as a last resort after all other methods have failed. If you can develop repore or bribe them or take away annoyances and get them to talk, fine. This isn't about retribution, it's about intel. But, if you've pulled everything out of your bag o'tricks and you still can't get the info....it's time to bring out the big guns.

Pol Pot didn't invent waterboarding. He may have used it, but it's older than him. Also, be careful when you start throwing the label, "waterboarding" on things that were done other places. Especially in the Orient. They used several different things that have been referred to as waterboarding but have almost nothing to do with what we were doing to HVTs.

One was the Japanese would shove a hose down someones throat and fill their belly with water. Then they would place a board across the engorged belly and two Japanese would use it as a see-saw. The person was questioned until they died, usually of a ruptured stomach. Now that's torture.

What if there's nothing to be gotten.

what if an innocent man goes to prison, should we stop locking people up?

 

[Ravi]

what if an innocent man goes to prison, should we stop locking people up?

No offense, Yurt, but you seem to be getting dumber by the day with these remarks.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

SEER is just what it says.

Survival
Escape
Evasion
Resistance

SEER training is for many reasons and in different focus areas. It is taken by pilots, in case they are required to eject over enemy territory. It's used by combat arms personnel as they are the ones most likely to find themselves on the wrong side of the FEBA. On and on.

It gives you a doctor's degree in the Code of Conduct. It gives you passing familiarity with elements of the Ranger Handbook especially in the Survival and Evasion areas. It is the obligation of every soldier (or whichever service) to attempt to escape if captured. SEER training introduces some tools to accomplish this. Resistance provides a real world patina to the Code of Conduct's requirements limit the intelligence gathering of the enemy. The old name, rank and serial number is no longer the limitation, but that doesn't mean you go blabbing everything you know either. Nor does it mean you give what you know up without a fight. Resistance training provides tools for the soldier to use to slow enemy efforts to obtain information from you.

For instance, before my dad went to Vietnam, they had a forerunner to SEER. One of the TO&E pieces of equipment that commonly went to the field with US troops was the TA-312 field telephone. It had a crank which produced an electrical charge and caused a distant phone to ring. During his training the wires were connected to various parts of the body and the crank turned. The electrical voltage was about 3.5 volts. Uncomfortable, but not damaging.

During my service the same phone was in service as well as the TA-1. It was another field telephone but it produced 7 volts of electricity. We were told this could not be used to induce cooperation during questioning.

In other words, there is more than just waterboarding that occurs in SEER training.

Well, yes, and I didn't mean to oversimplify it, but the waterboarding and similar things, the whole point of them, was to prepare special forces guys for the possibility that they might be tortured.

Except you can not preform ILLEGAL acts on our soldiers to prepare them for the enemy. That you think we can speaks volumes for your intelligence. If it is ILLEGAL, it is NOT done to ANYONE LEGALLY.

 

[rayboyusmc]

[quoteMatthew "Mancow" Muller waterboarded to prove it's not torture. "I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
Waterboarding.org started with the idea that the best way to learn about something is direct experience. Learn what it is and how to do it, then experience it yourself, then discuss whether it does or doesn't fit the legal definition of torture. Recently, Matthew "Mancow" Muller decided to investigate the issue for himself.

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "
...
Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop. He only lasted 6 or 7 seconds.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

Matthew Muller joins Chris Hitchens, Daniel Levin, and other former waterboarding apologists whose firsthand
][/quote]

waterboarding.org | "His sufferings must be that of a man who is drowning, but cannot drown." -Lt. Grover Flint, Philippine-American War

Any volunteers from the Cheney supporters?

 

[rayboyusmc]

what if an innocent man goes to prison, should we stop locking people up?

Wow! You just won the Cheney Non Sequitur Award.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

[quoteMatthew "Mancow" Muller waterboarded to prove it's not torture. "I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
Waterboarding.org started with the idea that the best way to learn about something is direct experience. Learn what it is and how to do it, then experience it yourself, then discuss whether it does or doesn't fit the legal definition of torture. Recently, Matthew "Mancow" Muller decided to investigate the issue for himself.

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "
...
Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop. He only lasted 6 or 7 seconds.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

Matthew Muller joins Chris Hitchens, Daniel Levin, and other former waterboarding apologists whose firsthand

waterboarding.org | "His sufferings must be that of a man who is drowning, but cannot drown." -Lt. Grover Flint, Philippine-American War

Any volunteers from the Cheney supporters?

I think we should try all those soldiers that illegally tortured our troops in SEER training, what ya think DUMB ASS?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Isn't Cheney gay?

That's torture enough for the republicans.

 

[WillowTree]

what if an innocent man goes to prison, should we stop locking people up?

No offense, Yurt, but you seem to be getting dumber by the day with these remarks.

wasn't a remark,, it had a ?

 

[roomy]

Man of 1000 faces was excellent, that might have been his dad, he was senior as opposed to junior, they were both cinematic greats.

 

[Yurt]

what if an innocent man goes to prison, should we stop locking people up?

No offense, Yurt, but you seem to be getting dumber by the day with these remarks.

it was a question...but then you're so smart you would know that...

your failure to answer the question speaks volumes, you usually resort to stupid ad homs when you can't answer a question for fear it pokes holes in a comment or theory you made....(yawn)

you asked what if there is no information to be "gotten"....

are you actually suggesting that my question has no bearing or relation to yours? if so, kindly explain why instead of wussing out with your trypical one line ad homs...

 

[rayboyusmc]

think we should try all those soldiers that illegally tortured our troops in SEER training, what ya think DUMB ASS?

If that is a serious question, you really are a dumbass retired.

Read real slowly because that's the way I am typing so even you understand:

We prepare our troops to resist torture by simulating torture, dumbass just like we train them to survive off the land if they need to.

Like I said your side is totally denial impaired on this issue.

 

[PoliticalChic]

It's too bad she was apparently fighting an unarmed opponent in a battle of wits.

see, I would have said: "Yes, we are torturing our soldiers to prepare them for the possibility that they might be captured and illegally tortured by our enemies. Why do you think the SEER program was developed, to experiment with breathing exercises?"

"Critics of our policies are given to lecturing on the theme of being consistent with American values. But no moral value held dear by the American people obliges public servants ever to sacrifice innocent lives to spare a captured terrorist from unpleasant things. And when an entire population is targeted by a terror network, nothing is more consistent with American values than to stop them."

RAW DATA: Text of Dick Cheney's National Security Speech at AEI - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

 

[rayboyusmc]

But no moral value held dear by the American people obliges public servants ever to sacrifice innocent lives to spare a captured terrorist from unpleasant things.

Dick is trying to cover his butt on this one. He okayed torture on one of Saddams henchmen to get him to tell US that there was a 9-11 Saddam connection. How is that protecting US? He broke our law and international law by torturing.

It's called torture, not "unpleasant things."

Next we will be calling pulling out your fingernails: deep manicuring.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Preparation and training in a controlled environment, with EVERY ONE THERE A FULL VOLUNTEER is much different than what happened in GITMO.

By the way, check this out.......if Kalied Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 time in a month, that equates to 6 times per day, and 24 (number of hours) divided by 6, is 4, which means that every 4 hours, he was waterboarded.

You know......you can't really get any good sleep being woken up every 4 hours, which means that they were also using sleep deprivation.

And.......I think that being waterboarded 1 or 2 times (as a volunteer), is much different than being waterboarded 6 times a day for a month as a prisoner of war.

Or, look at it this way, if each waterboarding is 20 seconds, the worderboarding was a total of 1 hour and 24 seconds over the month you are hypothesizing.

"..., air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds ..."
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

That would be, I imagine the same amount of time it took him to saw the head off Daniel Pearl. He got away cheap.

 

[PoliticalChic]

But no moral value held dear by the American people obliges public servants ever to sacrifice innocent lives to spare a captured terrorist from unpleasant things.

Dick is trying to cover his butt on this one. He okayed torture on one of Saddams henchmen to get him to tell US that there was a 9-11 Saddam connection. How is that protecting US? He broke our law and international law by torturing.

It's called torture, not "unpleasant things."

Next we will be calling pulling out your fingernails: deep manicuring.

"As Commander-in-Chief, I see the intelligence. I bear the responsibility for keeping this country safe. And I categorically reject the assertion that these are the most effective means of interrogation."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21obama.text.html

"This might explain why President Obama has reserved unto himself the right to order the use of enhanced interrogation should he deem it appropriate. What value remains to that authority is debatable, given that the enemy now knows exactly what interrogation methods to train against, and which ones not to worry about….It's almost gone unnoticed that the president has retained the power to order the same methods in the same circumstances."
RAW DATA: Text of Dick Cheney's National Security Speech at AEI - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

 

[Pyrite]

That would be, I imagine the same amount of time it took him to saw the head off Daniel Pearl. He got away cheap.

Yes, because the actions of terrorists are what we should base our actions on. It makes perfect sense.

 

[Ravi]

what if an innocent man goes to prison, should we stop locking people up?

No offense, Yurt, but you seem to be getting dumber by the day with these remarks.

it was a question...but then you're so smart you would know that...

your failure to answer the question speaks volumes, you usually resort to stupid ad homs when you can't answer a question for fear it pokes holes in a comment or theory you made....(yawn)

you asked what if there is no information to be "gotten"....

are you actually suggesting that my question has no bearing or relation to yours? if so, kindly explain why instead of wussing out with your trypical one line ad homs...

lol...you are the one that wussed out by bringing up a non-sequitur to avoid answering the quesiton.

 

[manu1959]

think we should try all those soldiers that illegally tortured our troops in SEER training, what ya think DUMB ASS?

If that is a serious question, you really are a dumbass retired.

Read real slowly because that's the way I am typing so even you understand:

We prepare our troops to resist torture by simulating torture, dumbass just like we train them to survive off the land if they need to.

Like I said your side is totally denial impaired on this issue.

so when we waterboard our guys it is simulating torture but when we waterboard murderers it is real torture.....

i agree .... we should have tried and convicted them of murder, espionage and terrorisim and shot them at sunrise as murderers and spies....