Libs: What are your true cultural values?

[Father Time]

"Just as there is treatment for bipolar disorder, for example, there are treatments available for homosexuals today and more sophisticated treatments will be available in the future."

Assuming you're talking about the counseling, those don't work. Also homosexuality isn't classified as a mental disorder anymore and I don't think it should be.

 

[uscitizen]

The one best cultural value of all. Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you.

This would naturally cover most of our societies problems if we just lived our lives this way.

Unless you're a masochist.

Of course there are the insane. That is why we have the llibertarian party.

 

[uscitizen]

The one best cultural value of all. Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you.

This would naturally cover most of our societies problems if we just lived our lives this way.

Unless you're a masochist.

Or believe in retroactive abortion.

You mean post term abortions?
Like 17 years after birth?

 

[MaggieMae]

Be honest about these three conscience-raising values, NOT politically motivated based on ideology or agenda.

Abortion: It's a life, not a choice. In 100 years, people will look back on the pro-choice crowd as people look at at the pro-slavery folks of the 19th century today. History will not be kind to the pro-choicers. And the US government will be chastised for making in-country adoptions so expensive and difficult that people had to adopt out of the country.

Racial bigotry: Governments and some political parties use this to control the way some vote. These people must be stopped. Affirmative Action, for example, is nothing more than State-sanctioned racism. Anyone supporting this is a racist by definition.

Gays: Homosexuals should be treated just like everyone else. However, many have become homosexuals because of physical and/or sexual abuse as children and some perhaps because of a chemical imbalance in the brain. The answer is not to encourage the behavior for these people, but to help them become who they would have become had they not been dealt the hand they were given. Just as there is treatment for bipolar disorder, for example, there are treatments available for homosexuals today and more sophisticated treatments will be available in the future.

Christianity: Humans are wired-up to believe in God. Christianity seems to have it right, although the fundamentalists have clearly corrupted the meaning. If people would follow the two greatest commandments, the world would be a better place:

Mark chapter 12 verses 28-31

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," Jesus answered, "is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbour as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."


One last thing: I find it disgusting that the meaning of 'Liberal' has been corrupted by contemporary American liberals. I can't call myself a 'Liberal' without explaining that I'm not like the left-wing moonbats. The current meaning of 'Liberal' in America today is just about the opposite of the dictionary definition. That's a shame.

All of your comments are outstanding. However, that said, after reading your posts for many months now, I find it hard to believe that you are a "liberal" even by its true sense of meaning.

 

[MaggieMae]

Well thought out and interesting but are opinions regarding abortion, racial bigotry, Christianity and homosexuality truly

conscience-raising values

?
What is it that our culture really values ? Fame ? Power ? Money ? Honesty ? Integrity? Truth? Security ?
How would you prioritize them ?

Good question. The answer (to me) is that in our quest for fame, power, money and security, we often ignore what our conscience tells us is honest, we don't seek out the truth, and therefore lose our integrity along the way.

 

[MaggieMae]

Abortion - If the "anti" women's rights people put their money where their mouth is and actually came up with ways women who become pregnant for whatever reason could take care of those children, then I suspect that the numbers of abortion would drop dramatically.
Saying that women use abortion as "birth control" is a flat out lie. Sure, there may be a very few who are irresponsible, but if I hear one more, "I know a woman who has had 15 abortions because it's easier than birth control", I'm going to puke.
How many children are waiting to be adopted? That kind of tells the story.
The right flat out lies when they suggest the left has "abortion parties" and "have abortions for fun". No one likes abortion. But we already know for sure that women will have back alley dirty unbent hanger abortions if no other options. It was up until just a few days ago that anyone working for the RNC could get an abortion and the party would pay for it. Wonder how many used that "benefit"?

Racial bigotry? Living in Chicago, I know lots of black people. I work with black people. As far as I know, none belong to gangs. When I was in the military, I worked with lots of black people, none belonged to gangs. If you go to "white" ghettos, you will find lots of gang members, none of them black. The real problem here is poverty. An inner city black with that ignorant slang is looked askance just as much as that dumb hillbilly twang or that white south side Chicago drawl. Poverty and language skills. The two largest causes of bigotry. It call all be traced back to those.

Gays - Doesn't bother me seeing anyone kiss, unless it's like those young couples sitting in the park, or at the beach, or in a restaurant, swapping spit and rotating their heads while their mouths are pressed together wide open. Of course, I have never seen gays do that.
There are probably way more "swingers" than gays considering there are "swingers clubs" in every state in the union. And a 50% divorce rate.
When you look at gay contributions to society in science, literature, art, dance, music, architecture and so many other fields and look at the small and meager contributions of evangelicals, I would much rather have more gays. Who wouldn't?

Religion - it's just so stupid. Mysticism, ghosts, supernatural, occult, angels, devils, demons, sprites, deities, it's just stupid. It's like believing in Marvel Comics. And there is exactly the same amount of evidence. Exactly. Just wanting something to be real, doesn't make it real.

Good point about controlling abortiion on demand. I think Planned Parenthood tries to give advice, but unfortunately because of the nature of that organization, the advice is usually too late. There needs to be a group that becomes a household name whose sole goal is to provide counseling BEFORE a woman becomes pregnant, and those voices need to be forceful.

During the last election, John McCain said he was for insurance paying for "Viagra" because "erectile dysfunction" is a medical condition, but birth control should be paid for by the woman because it's a "lifestyle choice". As long as the majority of Americans have that kind of mindset, and I believe it is the majority, nothing will change.

In essence, if a woman becomes pregnant, the responsibility is still 90% her problem (if deemed a 'problem' that is).

 

[MaggieMae]

During the last election, John McCain said he was for insurance paying for "Viagra" because "erectile dysfunction" is a medical condition, but birth control should be paid for by the woman because it's a "lifestyle choice". As long as the majority of Americans have that kind of mindset, and I believe it is the majority, nothing will change.

Are you serious?

DAMN! I never heard that!

What bullshit! True, erectile dysfunction is a medical condition, but the decision for a man to fuck is a lifestyle choice.

What an idiot McCain is!

I think he backtracked on that statement, but nevertheless, although Viagra was developed to treat a medical condition, we all know it's been severely abused as a way to "enhance" performance even by verile men who have no problem.

 

[DiamondDave]

Abortion: I find it reprehensible, but the cat is out of the bag. We will never eliminate abortion, it is available around the world. I am a realist and know that neither abortion or gun ownership will be outlawed nation wide. Best option is to cut down the need for abortion.....Birth control, sex education, free neonatal care, assistance to single mothers

Personal responsibility, personal responsibility, more entitlement bullshit and wealth redistribution against personal freedoms, and even more entitlement bullshit and wealth redistribution against personal freedoms

Racial bigotry: It is here, but not as bad as it once was. We have made enormous progress. We don't owe people anything other than a fair shake.....some groups still do not get a fair shake.
I believe most problems blacks face are due to black culture and not white descrimination. 70% of black children born to unwed mothers, limited emphasis on education, black on black crime, gangs, drugs...all are self inflicted and need to be handled within the black community

Fair shake and equal treatment by law.... for once I can actually say we are about on the same page

Gays: I still wince when I see gays kissing, but am willing to accept it. I think gays have a right to marry, raise children and do everything heterosexuals do. I look at what they do as having no impact on my life so leave them alone

I am close to agreeing with this also.. except I do think this whole redefinition of the term marriage is still horse shit.. but again, in terms of government and law, I am for equal treatment

Christianity: I am an atheist....I have been brought up Christian but just don't buy it as the truth. Most Christians are good people and do good for the community. I have problems with fundamentalists who are intolerant of others while demanding their own doctrine be accepted

Big shock there...
If you have problems with fundamentalists.. then you should also have problems with the wingers who practically use environmentalism and other things as their 'religion'.. who practically force their 'doctrine' to be accepted

 

[MaggieMae]

The one best cultural value of all. Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you.

This would naturally cover most of our societies problems if we just lived our lives this way.

Yup. I like to THINK that's the way I am, but I also confess that I have always had a hard time with forgiving people who don't.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Abortion

Its a terrible act. However, making it illegal won't stop it. If you're serious about stopping abortion, we need to make adoption a more attractive option, make deadbeat fathers more responsible for their offspring, and remove as much of the financial cost of pre-natal healthcare as we can. We need to also protect in the workplace single moms from the possiblity of job loss or descrimination. I think any solution has to also include a frank coversation about premaritial sex and birth control.

Racial bigotry:

Largely a poverty issue now. As long as we can ensure that upward mobility is possible for those willing to work, I think this will be a near non-issue. Instances where racial bigotry can be proven need to squashed like bugs.

Gays:

Doesn't effect me. I'd like to see the government out of the marriage business as much as possible regardless, but while the government is involved I don't see how you can deny gay people access to the same tax, insurance, and property advantages hetereosexual couples have access to.

Christianity:

I'm a Christian. I believe that the Christian message of love, forgiveness, and social justice represents the very best of humanity. I think that Christian Fundamentalists are not as bad as Islamic Fundamentalists, but that as a good Christian and American its important to guard against any fundamentalist getting too much political or personal power. Christianity isn't meant to be forced upon people, despite what some may think. I also think that Christianity is far more compatible with science than many fundamentalists or scientists think.

 

[MaggieMae]

"Just as there is treatment for bipolar disorder, for example, there are treatments available for homosexuals today and more sophisticated treatments will be available in the future."

Assuming you're talking about the counseling, those don't work. Also homosexuality isn't classified as a mental disorder anymore and I don't think it should be.

I agree. Scientists have almost unanimously concluded that homosexuality is a genetic failure. I saw a recent study that is trying to isolate it to the fact that a fetus is basically all female until a certain growth point, and that the genetic mutation may occur there.

It takes a strong person to "come out" and still hope to live and co-mingle among a still majority heterosexual population. That said, I think even that would be less of a psychological problem if the more flamboyant gay population didn't exacerbate the stigma that already exists.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Personal responsibility, personal responsibility, more entitlement bullshit and wealth redistribution against personal freedoms, and even more entitlement bullshit and wealth redistribution against personal freedoms

I dont' disagree with this, but I would say the issue right now isn't that the Mother's don't want to take personal responsibility for the children, its the deadbeat fathers. It takes two to tango, and yet all too frequently only one is left to parent.

I think that legally there should be a greater consequence for the father that runs out than there currently is.

 

[Immanuel]

"Just as there is treatment for bipolar disorder, for example, there are treatments available for homosexuals today and more sophisticated treatments will be available in the future."

Assuming you're talking about the counseling, those don't work. Also homosexuality isn't classified as a mental disorder anymore and I don't think it should be.

I agree. Scientists have almost unanimously concluded that homosexuality is a genetic failure. I saw a recent study that is trying to isolate it to the fact that a fetus is basically all female until a certain growth point, and that the genetic mutation may occur there.

It takes a strong person to "come out" and still hope to live and co-mingle among a still majority heterosexual population. That said, I think even that would be less of a psychological problem if the more flamboyant gay population didn't exacerbate the stigma that already exists.

"homosexuality is a genetic failure".

That phrase would get me as a conservative in extremely hot water!

Immie

 

[DiamondDave]

Personal responsibility, personal responsibility, more entitlement bullshit and wealth redistribution against personal freedoms, and even more entitlement bullshit and wealth redistribution against personal freedoms

I dont' disagree with this, but I would say the issue right now isn't that the Mother's don't want to take personal responsibility for the children, its the deadbeat fathers. It takes two to tango, and yet all too frequently only one is left to parent.

I think that legally there should be a greater consequence for the father that runs out than there currently is.

I don;t agree with any law that does not have equal responsibility on both parents for the raising and providing for the child...

But in no way is society nor government required to take over the personal responsibility for someone.... it is nice and honorable to have a charitable soul and support charities that help those in rough patches in their life... but this entitlement mantra that people are owed simply for the fact that they exist, MUST stop and be stopped

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Scientists have almost unanimously concluded that homosexuality is a genetic failure.

Not to derail your thread, but I've always seen this as the catch-22 of the homosexual community.

If homosexuality is a lifestyle choise, why should the get equal protection under the law? If you decide to go Punk or Goth, don't complain you can't get a bank job. Personal life decisions have consequences.

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder, then it is medicallly a sickness and that opens a whole Pandora's Box of terrible scenarios. Parents aborting gay fetuses, opting for dangerous genetic therapies, etc.

I've never understood pursing this line of reasoning.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I'm not described as a liberal here but at one point in my life people around me called me a liberal.

Can I comment on my positions too maggie?

 

[MaggieMae]

Scientists have almost unanimously concluded that homosexuality is a genetic failure.

Not to derail your thread, but I've always seen this as the catch-22 of the homosexual community.

If homosexuality is a lifestyle choise, why should the get equal protection under the law? If you decide to go Punk or Goth, don't complain you can't get a bank job. Personal life decisions have consequences.

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder, then it is medicallly a sickness and that opens a whole Pandora's Box of terrible scenarios. Parents aborting gay fetuses, opting for dangerous genetic therapies, etc.

I've never understood pursing this line of reasoning.

It's pursued in order to change the stigma that creates bigotry, so it follows that if more people understood that homosexuality is NOT a choice, they would be less inclined to consider gays as outcasts. And there are already terrible scenarios where people choose to abort because of other medically unacceptable conditions if they are discovered before birth.

 

[MaggieMae]

"Just as there is treatment for bipolar disorder, for example, there are treatments available for homosexuals today and more sophisticated treatments will be available in the future."

Assuming you're talking about the counseling, those don't work. Also homosexuality isn't classified as a mental disorder anymore and I don't think it should be.

I agree. Scientists have almost unanimously concluded that homosexuality is a genetic failure. I saw a recent study that is trying to isolate it to the fact that a fetus is basically all female until a certain growth point, and that the genetic mutation may occur there.

It takes a strong person to "come out" and still hope to live and co-mingle among a still majority heterosexual population. That said, I think even that would be less of a psychological problem if the more flamboyant gay population didn't exacerbate the stigma that already exists.

"homosexuality is a genetic failure".

That phrase would get me as a conservative in extremely hot water!

Immie

I probably should have used the term "disorder," but "failure" also grants that there are a certain number of X and Y chromosomes that generally make up what is considered a "normal" human being, sexually.

 

[DiamondDave]

Except for the fact that no 'gay gene' has been found whatsoever... that little fact usually gets in to the way of the 'genetic failure' argument

 

[nodoginnafight]

Abortion - I believe that a fetus is a human being who is entitled to protection under our legal system.

Racial Bigotry - I'm tired of people trying to pretend that systemic racism in our nation ended with the end of slavery. And I'm tired of people who haven't got a clue telling people to "just get over" Jim Crow, lynchings, school segregation, etc which were happening when their parents (the people who taught them their values) were legally excluded from equal opportunity.

Gays - The United States government has no basis for denying any rights and priviledges that are afforded to straight couples to gay couples.

Christainity - THIS Christian is well aware that seperation of church and state protects the church more than it protects the state. God doesn't care if his laws are written into our laws, he wants his laws written in our hearts. The state has no business promoting any religion.