Let's look at some facts

[California Girl]

I have heard repeatedly that the United States has the best health care in the world. I think it can be shown without any difficulty we have the most expensive health care - but "best" is a relative term.

In terms of expense, we have the highest cost of health care per capita - hands down. No one is even close to us. We are 50% higher than the runner up - Norway. But how do you determine overall quality? Difficult, but I would offer that one method would be life expectancy. I think it is a reasonable assumption that the healthier a population is, the longer you could expect them to live. So let us do a comparison of per capita cost vs life expectancy.

Japan: $2,729 per capita LE - 83.91 years
Italy: $2,870 per capita LE - 81.86 years
Spain: $2,902 per capita LE - 81.27 years
U.K.: $3,129 per capita LE - 80.17 years
Austrailia: $3,353 per capita LE - 81.9 years
Sweden: $3,470 per capita LE - 81.18 years
Belgium: $3,677 per capita LE - 79.65 years
France: $3,696 per capita LE - 81.46 years
Germany: $3,737 per capita LE - 80.19 years
Austria: $3,970 per capita LE - 79.91 years
Netherlands: $4,063 per capita LE - 80.91 years
Canada: $4,079 per capita LE - 81.48 years
Switzerland: $4,627 per capita LE - 81.17 years
Norway: $5,003 per capital LE - 80.32 years
United States: $7,538 per capita LE - 78.49 years

As you can see, while we are the most expensive system on the list, we are also at the very bottom of the list when it comes to life expectancy. I find it difficult to see that as being the "best". I suppose the bright side is that by dying a couple of years early you save yourself $15 K.

An interesting note. All of the above countries have universal health care, except the United States.

For those of you who wish to see for yourselves:

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States & Selected OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Now, let us take it as a given that by using actual information I am, by definition, a godless communist or whatever perjorative you wish to use in lieu of an argument. Does anyone have any actual facts to dispute this? I would love to see them.

The reason why we have a lower life expectancy has jack shit to do with our health care, and everything to do with the fact that we are the fattest bunch of fuckers on the planet. If you are gonna bitch, at least get your fucking facts straight.

Idiot.

Study: America Is Officially the Fattest Developed Country in the World | Healthland | TIME.com

Ah yes. I believe I covered the part about insults in lieu of an argument. But thank you for playing.

Which bit is insulting? Calling my fellow Americans 'fat fuckers'? Yea, I can see that might be a tad cruel... the truth is often harsh.... and so am I.

Fact: the reason why we have a lower life span is that we are too fucking fat as a nation. Every fucking legitimate study shows that result.

And, just so you know, many of the stats used to prepare these figures you quote are self reported - not independently researched, therefore, they are open to corruption. Having said that, we certainly do die earlier generally than many nations - because too many Americans are lazy, greedy, pigs.

 

[PratchettFan]

The reason why we have a lower life expectancy has jack shit to do with our health care, and everything to do with the fact that we are the fattest bunch of fuckers on the planet. If you are gonna bitch, at least get your fucking facts straight.

Idiot.

Study: America Is Officially the Fattest Developed Country in the World | Healthland | TIME.com

Ah yes. I believe I covered the part about insults in lieu of an argument. But thank you for playing.

Which bit is insulting? Calling my fellow Americans 'fat fuckers'? Yea, I can see that might be a tad cruel... the truth is often harsh.... and so am I.

Fact: the reason why we have a lower life span is that we are too fucking fat as a nation. Every fucking legitimate study shows that result.

And, just so you know, many of the stats used to prepare these figures you quote are self reported - not independently researched, therefore, they are open to corruption. Having said that, we certainly do die earlier generally than many nations - because too many Americans are lazy, greedy, pigs.

You didn't consider calling me an idiot an insult? Your social skills need work.

You are making claims, but you support none of it. If you have other data to present, do so.

 

[Political Junky]

I just heard a Canadian woman on a talk show this morning. Her husband had very serious heart surgery and the only thing it cost them was $12. for a TV in the room.

 

[Rozman]

I just heard a Canadian woman on a talk show this morning. Her husband had very serious heart surgery and the only thing it cost them was $12. for a TV in the room.

But he probably had to wait.....

3 Months to see the Doctor.
Another 3 months for the tests...
Another 3 months for the specialist...
Another 6 months for the hospital bed....

But they only had to pay the $12.00 for the TV....
Yup can't beat that good ol Canadian so much better then
those crappy Americans health care.

 

[PratchettFan]

I just heard a Canadian woman on a talk show this morning. Her husband had very serious heart surgery and the only thing it cost them was $12. for a TV in the room.

But he probably had to wait.....

3 Months to see the Doctor.
Another 3 months for the tests...
Another 3 months for the specialist...
Another 6 months for the hospital bed....

But they only had to pay the $12.00 for the TV....
Yup can't beat that good ol Canadian so much better then
those crappy Americans health care.

Complete nonsense. Why not just say they are also forced to wear funny hats and clean toilets while in surgery?

 

[old navy]

Comparing US health care and life expectancy stats to most other countries is about as useless as comparing education.

Some reasons US health care costs are higher: pharmaceutical advertising, the burden of research and development, defensive medicine, the long and expensive FDA approval process, the technological imperative, and top-notch medical training and facilities just to name a few.

And, I do believe that the US has the best health care available in the world.

 

[Si modo]

According to surveys by Jackson Healthcare and Gallup, physicians estimate that defensive medicine practices cost the U.S. between $650 – $850 billion annually.

Considering that, simple tort reform would have been the logical place to start in healthcare reform.

Then again, when attorney lobbyists have such influence on our lawmakers, they pay a pretty penny to prevent any of THAT from happening.

 

[PratchettFan]

Comparing US health care and life expectancy stats to most other countries is about as useless as comparing education.

Some reasons US health care costs are higher: pharmaceutical advertising, the burden of research and development, defensive medicine, the long and expensive FDA approval process, the technological imperative, and top-notch medical training and facilities just to name a few.

And, I do believe that the US has the best health care available in the world.

You believe it, but based upon what? Clearly we are the most expensive, but what is it exactly that we are getting which justifies the higher cost? Because if you can't point out, with actual data rather than belief, where we are getting a far better product than everyone else - then we are being ripped off.

Let me address your points:

Pharmaceutical advertising - why should we be expected to bear the expense of that? What is about advertising here that is so much more expensive than advertising in Germany?
R&D: What information do you have showing there is more of this in our country than other developed nations?
Defensive medicine: This relates to insurance costs. With a public option that pretty much goes away.
FDA approval: What information do you have this is any more difficult than in the other developed countries?
Tech imperative: What technology do we have the other developed countries do not?
Medical training and factilities: What information do you have which supports the argument that our training and facilities are signifiacntly superior to other developed nations?

Do you see the trend? Don't just tell me how it is, tell how you know it. I think if you consider it, you will find that you don't know it.

I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying it is time we start asking a lot of questions and expecting answers supported by actual information rather than slogans and accusations. We being the American public.

 

[Si modo]

Comparing US health care and life expectancy stats to most other countries is about as useless as comparing education.

Some reasons US health care costs are higher: pharmaceutical advertising, the burden of research and development, defensive medicine, the long and expensive FDA approval process, the technological imperative, and top-notch medical training and facilities just to name a few.

And, I do believe that the US has the best health care available in the world.

You believe it, but based upon what? Clearly we are the most expensive, but what is it exactly that we are getting which justifies the higher cost? Because if you can't point out, with actual data rather than belief, where we are getting a far better product than everyone else - then we are being ripped off.

Let me address your points:

Pharmaceutical advertising - why should we be expected to bear the expense of that? What is about advertising here that is so much more expensive than advertising in Germany?
R&D: What information do you have showing there is more of this in our country than other developed nations?
Defensive medicine: This relates to insurance costs. With a public option that pretty much goes away.
FDA approval: What information do you have this is any more difficult than in the other developed countries?
Tech imperative: What technology do we have the other developed countries do not?
Medical training and factilities: What information do you have which supports the argument that our training and facilities are signifiacntly superior to other developed nations?

Do you see the trend? Don't just tell me how it is, tell how you know it. I think if you consider it, you will find that you don't know it.

I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying it is time we start asking a lot of questions and expecting answers supported by actual information rather than slogans and accusations. We being the American public.

To the bolded: With a public option, that does NOTHING to stop litigation, thus it does nothing to stop the practice. What it DOES do is make taxpayers pay the costs of litgation. So, taxpayers will now line the pockets of attorneys. No surprise, considering the attorneys don't give a shit who pays them as long as they can keep billing and keep limitations on torts out of the law.

 

[PratchettFan]

According to surveys by Jackson Healthcare and Gallup, physicians estimate that defensive medicine practices cost the U.S. between $650 – $850 billion annually.

Considering that, simple tort reform would have been the logical place to start in healthcare reform.

Then again, when attorney lobbyists have such influence on our lawmakers, they pay a pretty penny to prevent any of THAT from happening.

I agree. The more litigious any system is, the more expensive. We desperately need tort reform. It is just that the vast majority of our representatives and senators are lawyers. Funny how we can't seem to address the problem.

 

[Si modo]

According to surveys by Jackson Healthcare and Gallup, physicians estimate that defensive medicine practices cost the U.S. between $650 – $850 billion annually.

Considering that, simple tort reform would have been the logical place to start in healthcare reform.

Then again, when attorney lobbyists have such influence on our lawmakers, they pay a pretty penny to prevent any of THAT from happening.

I agree. The more litigious any system is, the more expensive. We desperately need tort reform. It is just that the vast majority of our representatives and senators are lawyers. Funny how we can't seem to address the problem.

Both parties get significant funds from those lobbyists. The attorneys have it all covered. It's an example of the evils of one-party states...no control over the citizens getting screwed.

 

[PratchettFan]

Comparing US health care and life expectancy stats to most other countries is about as useless as comparing education.

Some reasons US health care costs are higher: pharmaceutical advertising, the burden of research and development, defensive medicine, the long and expensive FDA approval process, the technological imperative, and top-notch medical training and facilities just to name a few.

And, I do believe that the US has the best health care available in the world.

You believe it, but based upon what? Clearly we are the most expensive, but what is it exactly that we are getting which justifies the higher cost? Because if you can't point out, with actual data rather than belief, where we are getting a far better product than everyone else - then we are being ripped off.

Let me address your points:

Pharmaceutical advertising - why should we be expected to bear the expense of that? What is about advertising here that is so much more expensive than advertising in Germany?
R&D: What information do you have showing there is more of this in our country than other developed nations?
Defensive medicine: This relates to insurance costs. With a public option that pretty much goes away.
FDA approval: What information do you have this is any more difficult than in the other developed countries?
Tech imperative: What technology do we have the other developed countries do not?
Medical training and factilities: What information do you have which supports the argument that our training and facilities are signifiacntly superior to other developed nations?

Do you see the trend? Don't just tell me how it is, tell how you know it. I think if you consider it, you will find that you don't know it.

I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying it is time we start asking a lot of questions and expecting answers supported by actual information rather than slogans and accusations. We being the American public.

To the bolded: With a public option, that does NOTHING to stop litigation, thus it does nothing to stop the practice. What it DOES do is make taxpayers pay the costs of litgation. So, taxpayers will now line the pockets of attorneys. No surprise, considering the attorneys don't give a shit who pays them as long as they can keep billing.

On the contrary, there is far less litigation against the government than the private sector and governments tend not to settle nuisance claims. The county where I live employs almost 2,000 medical professionals, including doctors, nurses, emts, psychiatrists and psychologists. It operates clinics, half-way houses, detox facilities and rehab facilites. In the last 20 years there have been two malpractice claims filed against it, both dealing with psychiatrists and both tossed out of court before trial. The county does not purchase malpractice coverage.

 

[Si modo]

You believe it, but based upon what? Clearly we are the most expensive, but what is it exactly that we are getting which justifies the higher cost? Because if you can't point out, with actual data rather than belief, where we are getting a far better product than everyone else - then we are being ripped off.

Let me address your points:

Pharmaceutical advertising - why should we be expected to bear the expense of that? What is about advertising here that is so much more expensive than advertising in Germany?
R&D: What information do you have showing there is more of this in our country than other developed nations?
Defensive medicine: This relates to insurance costs. With a public option that pretty much goes away.
FDA approval: What information do you have this is any more difficult than in the other developed countries?
Tech imperative: What technology do we have the other developed countries do not?
Medical training and factilities: What information do you have which supports the argument that our training and facilities are signifiacntly superior to other developed nations?

Do you see the trend? Don't just tell me how it is, tell how you know it. I think if you consider it, you will find that you don't know it.

I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying it is time we start asking a lot of questions and expecting answers supported by actual information rather than slogans and accusations. We being the American public.

To the bolded: With a public option, that does NOTHING to stop litigation, thus it does nothing to stop the practice. What it DOES do is make taxpayers pay the costs of litgation. So, taxpayers will now line the pockets of attorneys. No surprise, considering the attorneys don't give a shit who pays them as long as they can keep billing.

On the contrary, there is far less litigation against the government than the private sector and governments tend not to settle nuisance claims. The county where I live employs almost 2,000 medical professionals, including doctors, nurses, emts, psychiatrists and psychologists. It operates clinics, half-way houses, detox facilities and rehab facilites. In the last 20 years there have been two malpractice claims filed against it, both dealing with psychiatrists and both tossed out of court before trial. The county does not purchase malpractice coverage.

Since when are physicians government employees? The suits are against physicians and/or hospitals.

 

[PratchettFan]

To the bolded: With a public option, that does NOTHING to stop litigation, thus it does nothing to stop the practice. What it DOES do is make taxpayers pay the costs of litgation. So, taxpayers will now line the pockets of attorneys. No surprise, considering the attorneys don't give a shit who pays them as long as they can keep billing.

On the contrary, there is far less litigation against the government than the private sector and governments tend not to settle nuisance claims. The county where I live employs almost 2,000 medical professionals, including doctors, nurses, emts, psychiatrists and psychologists. It operates clinics, half-way houses, detox facilities and rehab facilites. In the last 20 years there have been two malpractice claims filed against it, both dealing with psychiatrists and both tossed out of court before trial. The county does not purchase malpractice coverage.

Since when are physicians government employees? The suits are against physicians and/or hospitals.

You can't have it both ways. If the physcians and hospitals are not under the government, then your tax dollars are not involved in litigation. Now you could say those costs would be carried over into tax, but they are already carried over in the form of premium. So, at the very least, it would be a wash. However, if it did affect governmental expense there would be considerably more incentive on the part of the government for tort reform.

 

[WillowTree]

I have heard repeatedly that the United States has the best health care in the world. I think it can be shown without any difficulty we have the most expensive health care - but "best" is a relative term.

In terms of expense, we have the highest cost of health care per capita - hands down. No one is even close to us. We are 50% higher than the runner up - Norway. But how do you determine overall quality? Difficult, but I would offer that one method would be life expectancy. I think it is a reasonable assumption that the healthier a population is, the longer you could expect them to live. So let us do a comparison of per capita cost vs life expectancy.

Japan: $2,729 per capita LE - 83.91 years
Italy: $2,870 per capita LE - 81.86 years
Spain: $2,902 per capita LE - 81.27 years
U.K.: $3,129 per capita LE - 80.17 years
Austrailia: $3,353 per capita LE - 81.9 years
Sweden: $3,470 per capita LE - 81.18 years
Belgium: $3,677 per capita LE - 79.65 years
France: $3,696 per capita LE - 81.46 years
Germany: $3,737 per capita LE - 80.19 years
Austria: $3,970 per capita LE - 79.91 years
Netherlands: $4,063 per capita LE - 80.91 years
Canada: $4,079 per capita LE - 81.48 years
Switzerland: $4,627 per capita LE - 81.17 years
Norway: $5,003 per capital LE - 80.32 years
United States: $7,538 per capita LE - 78.49 years

As you can see, while we are the most expensive system on the list, we are also at the very bottom of the list when it comes to life expectancy. I find it difficult to see that as being the "best". I suppose the bright side is that by dying a couple of years early you save yourself $15 K.

An interesting note. All of the above countries have universal health care, except the United States.

For those of you who wish to see for yourselves:

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States & Selected OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Now, let us take it as a given that by using actual information I am, by definition, a godless communist or whatever perjorative you wish to use in lieu of an argument. Does anyone have any actual facts to dispute this? I would love to see them.

Yes, shitty health care which explains why people are flown in from all over the world to get it. Now run along.

 

[Si modo]

On the contrary, there is far less litigation against the government than the private sector and governments tend not to settle nuisance claims. The county where I live employs almost 2,000 medical professionals, including doctors, nurses, emts, psychiatrists and psychologists. It operates clinics, half-way houses, detox facilities and rehab facilites. In the last 20 years there have been two malpractice claims filed against it, both dealing with psychiatrists and both tossed out of court before trial. The county does not purchase malpractice coverage.

Since when are physicians government employees? The suits are against physicians and/or hospitals.

You can't have it both ways. If the physcians and hospitals are not under the government, then your tax dollars are not involved in litigation. Now you could say those costs would be carried over into tax, but they are already carried over in the form of premium. So, at the very least, it would be a wash. However, if it did affect governmental expense there would be considerably more incentive on the part of the government for tort reform.

I'm not trying to have a thing both ways. I'm challenging your claim that defensive medicine costs go away with single payer. They don't. Defensive medicine is a colossal waste of money, unless one is a litigious attorney. And, whether I pay it in a premium or in a tax, it is still there.

And, it is still a significant reason WHY our healthcare costs are high.

And, I, personally, find it beyond distasteful that the government is more than willing to take this money from ME to pay THEM (litigious attorneys). It's classic government irresponsibility with the citizens' money.

When will The People demand good stewardship of OUR money by OUR government? Sorry, I don't just accept piss-poor money management by the Feds, irrespective of where it happens or in which program it happens.

Congress had a crystal clear opportunity to address this significant cost, but rather they rammed a tax down our throat to pay for something they are too lazy to address.

I say NO. When I see a RESPONSIBLE bill from them addressing real healthcare reform, I will likely support it. Reform means CHANGING the waste, in part...not just leaving waste in there and now making it a law that I pay for it. This current bill is an abomination. Reform? My ass. It just changed it from my choice to pay for waste to making it illegal if I don't pay for waste.

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

You know, I'm almost 60 years old. When I was in my late 40's I had a heart attack. Blocked arteries which precipitated a stint being put in. I've been on medication ever since. My daughter is into this "health" kick and she berates me every day to take better care of myself, especially since we lost her mother a while back. Okay, so I stopped drinking soft drinks and put down the cigars and cigarettes. I lost 40 pounds and my blood pressure and cholesterol is good. I admit that I do feel better.

When I go to breakfast in the mornings, there are times when I WANT biscuits and gravy with a couple FRIED eggs that Martin makes at the diner. You know the kind, sausage gravy that is so thick you could plaster a wall with it. And he uses REAL butter to fry the eggs in. It's not everyday, but perhaps once a week. The doctor says it will eventually kill me and my daughter came in last week while I was eating and I thought I was going to have to shoot her up with valium. I had to remind her that I am her father, NOT a child.

The difference between the United States and all those other countries on the list is that we are AMERICANS. We don't stand in line well and although you can suggest things, try to mandate them, and show us how much better it is for us, in the end, we'll probably do what we want anyway. Healthcare effects but is not the determining factor in life expectancy. Lifestyle is the major factor. And if I can live another 5 or 10 years by giving up my biscuits and gravy, I'll consider it. But I'll probably keep the once a week guilty pleasure and deal with the consequences when they come. If that means that my time on earth will come to an end, well then, I have a wife who is waiting for me.

So when someone starts lecturing me on why eating that is wrong, my eyes glaze over. What is it about telling other people what to do that you liberals do not get?

 

[bobgnote]

CG was 100% correct. Americans are a flock of fat fuckers. Among the fatties are vampires, cops and attorneys and outsourcers and such. Why work, to feed THEM?

Fatties are going to sweat off some of the extra pounds, coming soon. The solar flares are starting up, the temperatures will rise, and the Earth will literally become a sweat shop.

Trey Parker made the relevant movies, starting with IDIOCRACY, 2006.

 

[Unkotare]

CG was 100% correct. Americans are a flock of fat fuckers. Among the fatties are vampires, cops and attorneys and outsourcers and such. Why work, to feed THEM?

Fatties are going to sweat off some of the extra pounds, coming soon. The solar flares are starting up, the temperatures will rise, and the Earth will literally become a sweat shop.

Trey Parker made the relevant movies, starting with IDIOCRACY, 2006.

What is your nationality, headcase?

 

[PratchettFan]

I have heard repeatedly that the United States has the best health care in the world. I think it can be shown without any difficulty we have the most expensive health care - but "best" is a relative term.

In terms of expense, we have the highest cost of health care per capita - hands down. No one is even close to us. We are 50% higher than the runner up - Norway. But how do you determine overall quality? Difficult, but I would offer that one method would be life expectancy. I think it is a reasonable assumption that the healthier a population is, the longer you could expect them to live. So let us do a comparison of per capita cost vs life expectancy.

Japan: $2,729 per capita LE - 83.91 years
Italy: $2,870 per capita LE - 81.86 years
Spain: $2,902 per capita LE - 81.27 years
U.K.: $3,129 per capita LE - 80.17 years
Austrailia: $3,353 per capita LE - 81.9 years
Sweden: $3,470 per capita LE - 81.18 years
Belgium: $3,677 per capita LE - 79.65 years
France: $3,696 per capita LE - 81.46 years
Germany: $3,737 per capita LE - 80.19 years
Austria: $3,970 per capita LE - 79.91 years
Netherlands: $4,063 per capita LE - 80.91 years
Canada: $4,079 per capita LE - 81.48 years
Switzerland: $4,627 per capita LE - 81.17 years
Norway: $5,003 per capital LE - 80.32 years
United States: $7,538 per capita LE - 78.49 years

As you can see, while we are the most expensive system on the list, we are also at the very bottom of the list when it comes to life expectancy. I find it difficult to see that as being the "best". I suppose the bright side is that by dying a couple of years early you save yourself $15 K.

An interesting note. All of the above countries have universal health care, except the United States.

For those of you who wish to see for yourselves:

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States & Selected OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Now, let us take it as a given that by using actual information I am, by definition, a godless communist or whatever perjorative you wish to use in lieu of an argument. Does anyone have any actual facts to dispute this? I would love to see them.

Yes, shitty health care which explains why people are flown in from all over the world to get it. Now run along.

Reading comprehension really is not your forte, is it?