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The bailouts where all about greasing corporatism, which has about as much allegiamce to America as any given whore
once one comes to terms with that, we can talk about federal tax payer backed socialism
~S~
You, JRK, are uninformed on this issue. You are the one voting for Obama, aren't you, JRK? I wish you would change your mind and vote for my candidate, Romney.
Again
there is no GM without the tax payer
Every penny they own as well as every stock that is there market cap is tax payers wealth
That stock is really worthless as collateral because if you had to sell a large portion of it to make a payment like people who have real loans do, it would plummet its all ready extremely low value
There assets added will probably not reach what they owe us, if so they could have went chapter 11 without us you would think
General Motors Company: NYSE:GM quotes & news - Google Finance
look at the stock performance also
That's the thing. If the government had stayed out of it, GM almost certainly would have declared bankruptcy. Then it could have reorganized, renegotiated union contracts, and otherwise cleaned up its act so that it could have become profitable again. The way the government handled it ensured that it will likely never be profitable again. At least UNTIL it declares a real bankruptcy and goes throught the necessary process of reorganization and sheds itself of unsustainable contracts, etc.
How much money, pain, recession, and swelling national debt could the federal government have saved us all had they just allowed the practical natural free market solutions to have worked? It would have been hugely painful but it was anyway. And we would now have it all behind us and would likely we well out of the recession and prospering again. And a responsible Congress would have repaired Fannie and Freddie and other regulatory processes necessary to re-establish fiscal sanity.
As it is, all the old problems are still there, we have added mega trillions to the national debt will trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and no solutions in sight. While the recession plods along.
GM did not have the assets to survive BK
They would have been 100% liquidated, it was 100% chapter 7
GWB saved them actually
They had enough assets to cover the 20 billion he gave them Dec 2008. The agreement was that no more and there were to have a plan in place by 3/2009
We know what really happened after that
That's the thing. If the government had stayed out of it, GM almost certainly would have declared bankruptcy. Then it could have reorganized, renegotiated union contracts, and otherwise cleaned up its act so that it could have become profitable again. The way the government handled it ensured that it will likely never be profitable again. At least UNTIL it declares a real bankruptcy and goes throught the necessary process of reorganization and sheds itself of unsustainable contracts, etc.
How much money, pain, recession, and swelling national debt could the federal government have saved us all had they just allowed the practical natural free market solutions to have worked? It would have been hugely painful but it was anyway. And we would now have it all behind us and would likely we well out of the recession and prospering again. And a responsible Congress would have repaired Fannie and Freddie and other regulatory processes necessary to re-establish fiscal sanity.
As it is, all the old problems are still there, we have added mega trillions to the national debt will trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and no solutions in sight. While the recession plods along.
GM did not have the assets to survive BK
They would have been 100% liquidated, it was 100% chapter 7
GWB saved them actually
They had enough assets to cover the 20 billion he gave them Dec 2008. The agreement was that no more and there were to have a plan in place by 3/2009
We know what really happened after that
Did he? Or did we have yet another albatross money pit hung around the taxpayer's neck? If GM had been forced into Chapter 7, how do we know there would not have been investers willing to buy up the discounted assets? At any rate, are all other auto manufacturers running at full capacity? I think not. And they could have filled any holes left by GM. As it was GM sold off much of its production, laid off tens of thousands of employees, and closed thousands of its dealerships. I don't see how Chapter 7 would have been all that much more traumatic.
And the taxpayer wouldn't be out mega billions and on the hook for mega billions more.
Compared to Solyandra, those are GREAT returns
That is funny except it cost 10s of thousands of jobs it would have moved to the south as well as Ford picking up some of the new work
Most would have moved to Toyota, Honda etc...
All this has done is save the UAW from total collapse
I want to make a comment for the record about the UAW
GM blew it, not the UAW. Now hold on
GM should have sold there product at cost plus profit
If that meant the yearly output only required 100 people from the UAW to assemble it, so be it
The bailouts where all about greasing corporatism, which has about as much allegiamce to America as any given whore
once one comes to terms with that, we can talk about federal tax payer backed socialism
~S~
Tarp the way GWB used it was a loan
that 200 billion was the best 200 billion the tax payer has ever loaned out
Much of the United States is clueless about the treacherous state of our economy. The delusions being sold to the American public are only serving to further hasten our demise
Sparky short of buying up millions of mortgages that are underwater, I am not sure what else the tax payer could to help this economy
Now
We have spent 2.1 trillion dollars more in the last three years than we were budgeted to do and did in 07-08 with little results to show for it. Could have made a huge swing at it
I wonder what the real cost of each UAW job saved for the 50 billion we spent (GM has paid us back 0. the first payment was from the tarp fund, the second was from a stock offering the tax payer paid for)
Sparky short of buying up millions of mortgages that are underwater, I am not sure what else the tax payer could to help this economy
Now
We have spent 2.1 trillion dollars more in the last three years than we were budgeted to do and did in 07-08 with little results to show for it. Could have made a huge swing at it
we spent a load of $$$ , but not as much of it went to intended targets JRK
that's what happens when we let banks play with tax $$$'s
I wonder what the real cost of each UAW job saved for the 50 billion we spent (GM has paid us back 0. the first payment was from the tarp fund, the second was from a stock offering the tax payer paid for
i wonder if we would have had to bail them out at all had we had VAT, and protective trade policies 30 years ago.....
~S~
Sparky short of buying up millions of mortgages that are underwater, I am not sure what else the tax payer could to help this economy
Now
We have spent 2.1 trillion dollars more in the last three years than we were budgeted to do and did in 07-08 with little results to show for it. Could have made a huge swing at it
we spent a load of $$$ , but not as much of it went to intended targets JRK
that's what happens when we let banks play with tax $$$'s
I wonder what the real cost of each UAW job saved for the 50 billion we spent (GM has paid us back 0. the first payment was from the tarp fund, the second was from a stock offering the tax payer paid for
i wonder if we would have had to bail them out at all had we had VAT, and protective trade policies 30 years ago.....
~S~
Bailout List: Banks, Auto Companies, and More | Eye on the Bailout | ProPublica
This is a great link that shows who got what and who owes us what
Union Wages Broke GM
There building Toyota's, Honda's, etc... in the south. These companies have no need to import
Toyota's truck sales are thru the roof
What GM should have done was scaled down to sell the product at the price legacy cost forced them to do, its GMs faulr, no-one elses
JRK, you make assertions, so let's see the numbers, then make the links to union and non-union pay.
Remember, your opinion means nothing. We need objective numbers, figures, and conclusions.
Is not the legacy cost tied into the golden pensions and parachutes of the biggies being paid before that of the workers?
Rework the payoff: pay the workers before the executives. If anything is left, then the executives can be paid.
And you have not demonstrated that divesting the pension system "is too late."
