Lets look at how GM is really doing. Another Liberal myth

[JakeStarkey]

Don't ignore the real $$$ fact of those proprietary pension pay offs to execs. Yes, the biggies pay offs effect thousands of regular union workers. You know it, and I know it.

What "should have" then does not matter now.

The car industry has turned the corner, the unions have been rubbed down significantly.

Now the time is to go after the 'golden' execs and adjust their salary, pensions, and buy outs to meet the real world of the auto industry.

 

[JRK]

Don't ignore the real $$$ fact of those proprietary pension pay offs to execs. Yes, the biggies pay offs effect thousands of regular union workers. You know it, and I know it.

What "should have" then does not matter now.

The car industry has turned the corner, the unions have been rubbed down significantly.

Now the time is to go after the 'golden' execs and adjust their salary, pensions, and buy outs to meet the real world of the auto industry.

Jake 55 an hour @ 50 hours a week is 150,000 a year
There not hurting Jake
What Ford pays there execs is Fords business
What GM pays there's should be 0, they failed

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cherry picking, JRK. What is the starting pay and benefits? What are the biggies making, JRK?

Come on, you have to play with all the numbers, not just the ones you like.

 

[JRK]

Cherry picking, JRK. What is the starting pay and benefits? What are the biggies making, JRK?

Come on, you have to play with all the numbers, not just the ones you like.

My point is there both doing fine
I thought it a very strange thing that a person on the assembly line making 150k a year would be upset about any-thing Jake

I would be happy to be able to stay home and make 50,000 a year with benifits, much less 150k with beeny's

Jake the auot industry failed in the US, there all to greedy
What there CEO makes is not a real picture of what there management group makes
Not defending any of them. I just think its ironic a person making 150,000 a year could be un-happy about any-thing when the county I live in has a 30k a year avg with a 15% UR rate. no-one came here with any bail-out money Jake

The last Union job I managed on, about 50% of the employees made allot more than I did, you know what?
I could care less

 

[JakeStarkey]

JRK, you are making assertions generally without specific evidence, something you are great at doing.

If everyone is doing fine, however, then you have no point, do you?

Similar to you had no point about the American forces not finding the WMDs described by our leaders before we invaded Iraq.

You so cherry pick what you like and ignore the rest.

That's why the rest of us love it when you post.

Now, JRK, back to the point. If the auto industry is in dire straits because of the unions, give us hard evidence.

 

[JRK]

JRK, you are making assertions generally without specific evidence, something you are great at doing.

If everyone is doing fine, however, then you have no point, do you?

Similar to you had no point about the American forces not finding the WMDs described by our leaders before we invaded Iraq.

You so cherry pick what you like and ignore the rest.

That's why the rest of us love it when you post.

Now, JRK, back to the point. If the auto industry is in dire straits because of the unions, give us hard evidence.

Jake I did
Okay
Foreign auto manufacturers and suppliers already have a massive presence in the U.S. Many of these new transplant factories are in the Sun Belt: South Carolina (BMW), Mississippi (Nissan ( NSANY - news - people )), Tennessee (Nissan), Alabama (Mercedes, Honda ( HMC - news - people ) and Hyundai), Texas (Toyota ( TM - news - people )), and Kentucky (Toyota). The foreigners do have a few plants in the North, too: Honda in Ohio and Indiana, and Toyota and Subaru-Toyota in Indiana.

Detroit pay and benefits ran about $55 an hour, vs. an average of $45 for the transplants, with Korean automakers paying less. Those "legacy" costs--health care and pension payments to retirees--add another $16 an hour to the domestics' costs. So Detroit's total labor runs about $70 to $75 an hour, vs. $49 for Japanese transplants.

In the current crisis, the union has been making big concessions, but it's too late.

Redirect Notice

The biggest myth is its about wages, wages are not that much different, Its legacy cost
It is the same thing we are having trouble with in the federal govt

Yota has 401ks
UAW has retirement (or they did)
guy retires with UAW he is till on the the taxpayers payroll
From Yota he has a 401k and Yota is done with that expense
My god this getting pld Jake
I never claimed we found the WMDs that the UN claimed was there Jake, Just 500 out of the 6000
There was no Anthrax nor large quantities of Nerve gas found either as Saddam stated he had and never provided proof they were destroyed

Jake we dis agree, but I have never seen you provide 5% of the links I have provided
Chill out Jake
Give it a rest
Read this Jake, this is why went ot war with Iraq Jake

The document indicates that 13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must assume that these quantities are now unaccounted for.

The discovery of a number of 122 mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions.

The investigation of these rockets is still proceeding. Iraq states that they were overlooked from 1991 from a batch of some 2,000 that were stored there during the Gulf War. This could be the case. They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

The finding of the rockets shows that Iraq needs to make more effort to ensure that its declaration is currently accurate. During my recent discussions in Baghdad, Iraq declared that it would make new efforts in this regard and had set up a committee of investigation. Since then it has reported that it has found a further 4 chemical rockets at a storage depot in Al Taji.

I might further mention that inspectors have found at another site a laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor.

Whilst I am addressing chemical issues, I should mention a matter, which I reported on 19 December 2002, concerning equipment at a civilian chemical plant at Al Fallujah. Iraq has declared that it had repaired chemical processing equipment previously destroyed under UNSCOM supervision, and had installed it at Fallujah for the production of chlorine and phenols. We have inspected this equipment and are conducting a detailed technical evaluation of it. On completion, we will decide whether this and other equipment that has been recovered by Iraq should be destroyed.


Biological weapons

I have mentioned the issue of anthrax to the Council on previous occasions and I come back to it as it is an important one.

Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 litres of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.

There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.

As I reported to the Council on 19 December last year, Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kg, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as imported in Iraq’s submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999. As part of its 7 December 2002 declaration, Iraq resubmitted the Amorim panel document, but the table showing this particular import of media was not included. The absence of this table would appear to be deliberate as the pages of the resubmitted document were renumbered.

In the letter of 24 January to the President of the Council, Iraq’s Foreign Minister stated that “all imported quantities of growth media were declared”. This is not evidence. I note that the quantity of media involved would suffice to produce, for example, about 5,000 litres of concentrated anthrax.


Missiles

I turn now to the missile sector. There remain significant questions as to whether Iraq retained SCUD-type missiles after the Gulf War. Iraq declared the consumption of a number of SCUD missiles as targets in the development of an anti-ballistic missile defence system during the 1980s. Yet no technical information has been produced about that programme or data on the consumption of the missiles.

There has been a range of developments in the missile field during the past four years presented by Iraq as non-proscribed activities. We are trying to gather a clear understanding of them through inspections and on-site discussions.

Two projects in particular stand out. They are the development of a liquid-fuelled missile named the Al Samoud 2, and a solid propellant missile, called the Al Fatah. Both missiles have been tested to a range in excess of the permitted range of 150 km, with the Al Samoud 2 being tested to a maximum of 183 km and the Al Fatah to 161 km. Some of both types of missiles have already been provided to the Iraqi Armed Forces even though it is stated that they are still undergoing development.

The Al Samoud’s diameter was increased from an earlier version to the present 760 mm. This modification was made despite a 1994 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM directing Iraq to limit its missile diameters to less than 600 mm. Furthermore, a November 1997 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM to Iraq prohibited the use of engines from certain surface-to-air missiles for the use in ballistic missiles.

During my recent meeting in Baghdad, we were briefed on these two programmes. We were told that the final range for both systems would be less than the permitted maximum range of 150 km.

These missiles might well represent prima facie cases of proscribed systems. The test ranges in excess of 150 km are significant, but some further technical considerations need to be made, before we reach a conclusion on this issue. In the mean time, we have asked Iraq to cease flight tests of both missiles.

In addition, Iraq has refurbished its missile production infrastructure. In particular, Iraq reconstituted a number of casting chambers, which had previously been destroyed under UNSCOM supervision. They had been used in the production of solid-fuel missiles. Whatever missile system these chambers are intended for, they could produce motors for missiles capable of ranges significantly greater than 150 km.

Also associated with these missiles and related developments is the import, which has been taking place during the last few years, of a number of items despite the sanctions, including as late as December 2002. Foremost amongst these is the import of 380 rocket engines which may be used for the Al Samoud 2.

Iraq also declared the recent import of chemicals used in propellants, test instrumentation and, guidance and control systems. These items may well be for proscribed purposes. That is yet to be determined. What is clear is that they were illegally brought into Iraq, that is, Iraq or some company in Iraq, circumvented the restrictions imposed by various resolutions.

Update 27 January 2003

Jake what more do you want?
disputing that would be in a place I cannot agree with

 

[JakeStarkey]

President Bush and the neo-cons completely mishandled and fumbled what could have been contained into the greatest foreign policy debacle in American history.

We have been through all of that so many times, and you have always failed on four points.

One, your evidence is cherry picked.

Two, almost all of it is conjecture.

Three, the so-called WMDs that were found did not in any way, shape, or form by the least possible acceptable method meet what the administration defined as WMDs before the invasion.

Four, President Bush and his folks would have announced such finds from the rooftops. They never did.

This is why the American people will never forgive the GOP for the invasion of Iraq on screwed-up pretenses sold by a screwed-up administration to a warmongering GOP-dominated Congress in 2002 and 2003.

 

[JRK]

President Bush and the neo-cons completely mishandled and fumbled what could have been contained into the greatest foreign policy debacle in American history.

We have been through all of that so many times, and you have always failed on four points.

One, your evidence is cherry picked.

Two, almost all of it is conjecture.

Three, the so-called WMDs that were found did not in any way, shape, or form by the least possible acceptable method meet what the administration defined as WMDs before the invasion.

Four, President Bush and his folks would have announced such finds from the rooftops. They never did.

This is why the American people will never forgive the GOP for the invasion of Iraq on screwed-up pretenses sold by a screwed-up administration to a warmongering GOP-dominated Congress in 2002 and 2003.

the senate was in dem control 2002
Tom Daschle was Majority leader in the senate

I have nothing else to say on this matter as your going way beyond what I have posted

Jake this has reached a place in which there is nothing else to say
GM/BHO lied
They failed
They have not even made enough money to pay us back

There first payment was from tarp
there second was from a tax payer funded IPO

 

[JakeStarkey]

This has reached a place which there is nothing else to say: JRK has lied. JRK has failed. The $$$ has been paid back. Why do you keep doing this? I wonder if you are a plant to make neo-con ideology as always leading to a bad failure. If so, you are a champ at it.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

This has reached a place which there is nothing else to say: JRK has lied. JRK has failed. The $$$ has been paid back. Why do you keep doing this? I wonder if you are a plant to make neo-con ideology as always leading to a bad failure. If so, you are a champ at it.

Repeating a wrong statement numerous times does not magically make it right

 

[JakeStarkey]

This has reached a place which there is nothing else to say: JRK has lied. JRK has failed. The $$$ has been paid back. Why do you keep doing this? I wonder if you are a plant to make neo-con ideology as always leading to a bad failure. If so, you are a champ at it.

Repeating a wrong statement numerous times does not magically make it right

finally, Frank has something sensible to say. Please tell JRK that, and I will remind you of it on the McCarthy thread. Maybe there is some hope for you.

 

[JRK]

This has reached a place which there is nothing else to say: JRK has lied. JRK has failed. The $$$ has been paid back. Why do you keep doing this? I wonder if you are a plant to make neo-con ideology as always leading to a bad failure. If so, you are a champ at it.

Repeating a wrong statement numerous times does not magically make it right

Its a sad state of affairs
I put him back on ignore
He keeps repeating the same thing over and over
Calling me liar has run its course also

 

[Oldstyle]

This has reached a place which there is nothing else to say: JRK has lied. JRK has failed. The $$$ has been paid back. Why do you keep doing this? I wonder if you are a plant to make neo-con ideology as always leading to a bad failure. If so, you are a champ at it.

So you REALLY consider a loan paid back with money from yet another loan to be "paid back"? Sorry, Jake but that's ridiculous.

For GM to take the 50 billion that we gave them in TARP money and pay off the 8.1 billion they got in the bailout is like your parents giving you $50 and you paying them back the $8 that you borrowed last week. Yeah, you can SAY that you "paid off" the previous loan...but you really didn't.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sorry, Oldstyle, not it is not. The books balance. You don't like it, who cares?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Poor JRK! Try to get him straight and he simply whines. Sad.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

This has reached a place which there is nothing else to say: JRK has lied. JRK has failed. The $$$ has been paid back. Why do you keep doing this? I wonder if you are a plant to make neo-con ideology as always leading to a bad failure. If so, you are a champ at it.

Repeating a wrong statement numerous times does not magically make it right

Its a sad state of affairs
I put him back on ignore
He keeps repeating the same thing over and over
Calling me liar has run its course also

Jake is a fraud, a fake, a phony, a poseur; he claims to be a prominent Republican in the panhandle of Florida who turned the power of government loose on Tea Party members and had them prosecuted and confiscated their property

 

[Oldstyle]

Sorry, Oldstyle, not it is not. The books balance. You don't like it, who cares?

How do the "books balance", Jake? Come on...that's an absurd statement and you know it. Until GM pays back ALL of the money they've borrowed from taxpayers...and they are FAR from doing that then they haven't paid their debt at all...simply moving a debt from one line of the balance sheet to another doesn't mean it ceases to exist and that has ZERO to do with what "I" like or dislike. It's just reality.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You folks can scream all you want, but who cares? Yes, they have paid back some of what they owe, and they owe some more. To say they haven't paid at all is stupid.

 

[JRK]

Sorry, Oldstyle, not it is not. The books balance. You don't like it, who cares?

How do the "books balance", Jake? Come on...that's an absurd statement and you know it. Until GM pays back ALL of the money they've borrowed from taxpayers...and they are FAR from doing that then they haven't paid their debt at all...simply moving a debt from one line of the balance sheet to another doesn't mean it ceases to exist and that has ZERO to do with what "I" like or dislike. It's just reality.

It is really that simple
we elect people like Obama with people just like this

 

[Truthmatters]

they just hate having an auto industry