Let's be Just Like The Netherlands!!

[no1tovote4]

Slippery in many aspects too---- if we truly believe we can eradicate suffering, this leaves us having to make an incredibly subjective decision which may ultimately deprive some who are in actually more pain suffer longer because they do not fit the criteria.

Once again it is not the suffering but the futility that some would wish to alleviate. And the determination that others can make decisions for them based on harm to their own soul, that is theirs to determine and take on it is the most basic premise of the life we have been gifted with.

 

[freeandfun1]

Once again it is not the suffering but the futility that some would wish to alleviate. And the determination that others can make decisions for them based on harm to their own soul, that is theirs to determine and take on it is the most basic premise of the life we have been gifted with.

My wife has left me and I feel as if my life is over. The pain is too much and I want to end the futility. My soul is damaged forever and I no longer can bear with the pain that life makes me suffer every day.

Can you prescribe something so I can end it? I mean, doesn't equal justice under the law require that you allow me to make that decision? You can either prescribe something so I can end it now, or I can suffer through years of mental anguish and disability.

Who are you to decide if one person's physical pain is more difficult to endure than my mental pain? I want equal treatment and I want it now!

 

[no1tovote4]

My wife has left me and I feel as if my life is over. The pain is too much and I want to end the futility. My soul is damaged forever and I no longer can bear with the pain that life makes me suffer every day.

Can you prescribe something so I can end it? I mean, doesn't equal justice under the law require that you allow me to make that decision? Who are you to decide if one person's physical pain is more difficult to endure than my mental pain? I want equal treatment and I want it now!

The point of assisted suicide is the person can no longer do that for themselves as you could in this scenario. Many different means are available to you without the assist. If you chose to take that upon your soul you could, I could not stop you and if you truly wanted to you would find a way.

I fully plan on leaving this earth dragged away with my fingernails being torn as I try to grip one last ounce of life from this body.

It may be different for another and their belief system may be different. The choice to effect their soul and leave with whatever baggage they may deem necessary is theirs to determine.

 

[dilloduck]

Once again it is not the suffering but the futility that some would wish to alleviate. And the determination that others can make decisions for them based on harm to their own soul, that is theirs to determine and take on it is the most basic premise of the life we have been gifted with.

I agree fully yet isn't the futility of mans attempt to make sense of his mortality at the very core of religion and phliosphy? To give the impression that somehow suicide is a resolution to this dilemna merely serves to pass this idea onto others.
Anyone can kill themselves anytime. What is the point in legalizing it for a select few ? The proponents claim it gives "dignity" to the dying , saves money and protects the soul. It certainly can save money but saying that it can protect the soul is as debatable as if a fetus even has a soul yet we still fight for it's right to be born into a world that is CERTAIN to cause it to suffer.
A dignified death is as subjective as pain and while suffering and pain may give the person an appearance of frailty, it is merely a judgement made by an onlooker who I hope would not judge a whole persons life by the manner in which he died.

 

[no1tovote4]

I agree fully yet isn't the futility of mans attempt to make sense of his mortality at the very core of religion and phliosphy? To give the impression that somehow suicide is a resolution to this dilemna merely serves to pass this idea onto others.
Anyone can kill themselves anytime. What is the point in legalizing it for a select few ? The proponents claim it gives "dignity" to the dying , saves money and protects the soul. It certainly can save money but saying that it can protect the soul is as debatable as if a fetus even has a soul yet we still fight for it's right to be born into a world that is CERTAIN to cause it to suffer.
A dignified death is as subjective as pain and while suffering and pain may give the person an appearance of frailty, it is merely a judgement made by an onlooker who I hope would not judge a whole persons life by the manner in which he died.

The point is that particular select few cannot themselves make such a choice, either trough inability to effect their surroundings enough to make the changes necessary or the fact that they are in a place where they will not be allowed. There is a reason that they beg for the help of others. They are taken to a place where they are protected against such a choice, many times are at a level where they could not effect the change necessary, and others are denied helping them to make that choice if they would be inclined to do so.

And I am not talking about how the onlooker is judging their life, it is not their choice to make either; only the patient could make that decision. Just as you at another point of life could make the same decision.

The fetus cannot make a judgement or choice such as the person at the end of their journey can. The choice is entirely different, to take the life of an innocent who is defenseless and given no choice, or to help another by giving them the means to end the journey at the time of their choosing.

 

[dilloduck]

The point is that particular select few cannot themselves make such a choice, either trough inability to effect their surroundings enough to make the changes necessary or the fact that they are in a place where they will not be allowed. There is a reason that they beg for the help of others. They are taken to a place where they are protected against such a choice, many times are at a level where they could not effect the change necessary, and others are denied helping them to make that choice if they would be inclined to do so.

And I am not talking about how the onlooker is judging their life, it is not their choice to make either; only the patient could make that decision. Just as you at another point of life could make the same decision.

The fetus cannot make a judgement or choice such as the person at the end of their journey can. The choice is entirely different, to take the life of an innocent who is defenseless and given no choice, or to help another by giving them the means to end the journey at the time of their choosing.

If the argument comes down to the freedom of choice, then why not let everyone have it ?

 

[no1tovote4]

If the argument comes down to the freedom of choice, then why not let everyone have it ?

And my point is everyone does until they get to the point where they cannot excercise it. There are even websites you can visit that will help you find what you need, but they cannot be reached from your hospital bed where you are now sequestered for the rest of your life, sometimes even unnaturally extended life.

At any point before you get to that type of care at the hospital you have the ability to find the escape if you seek it.

At the point I was talking about they have no avenue but the help of those around them. They won't be allowed to leave except under hospice care, they won't be allowed to ask for the help they need to get the stuff, they cannot effect the change that would enable them to successfully get there. In other words at this point other than faculties all they have is the help of those around them. Before that point they have many avenues to pursue and can reach the goal if they have that goal in mind.

It is only at that point where we take from them what we all have throughout our life, the means to effect the soul and body through the decisions that they make. At that point we arrogantly decide that the decision is no longer theirs to make.

 

[Bonnie]

If someone's life is maintained or extended through artificial means, you say doctors are acting to fulfill God's will. If someone's life is shortened through artificial means you say that doctors are defying God's will. You want to have it both ways.

The church says anyone has the right to deny artificial means to save them, they can stipulate that in writing......... How does killing someone with poison on their deathbed equate with "shortening their life with artificial means????

The real pity is that you believe a deity would have to resort to duress in order to extort faith.

Again twisting words to suit your reason for lacking faith. Pain is not thrust upon us by our creator.....If you have ever read the bible, pain happens to us because of disease.........Adam & Eve...original sin.. ring any bells?? What God does is help to deal with the pain by giving doctors science and medicine, and family members to be there for that person, till they die and then have paradise.

The answer to your last question is obvious...if the person died the day before a cure was found, it must have been God's will.

Yes if a person dies on their own it is God's will, if they are killed it's not God's will. Very easy concept......

 

[dilloduck]

It is only at that point where we take from them what we all have throughout our life, the means to effect the soul and body through the decisions that they make.

I thought we were speaking of the LEGAL right suicide. We all don't have that but you are willing to give it to a select few. You really don't see a slippery slope here?

 

[sagegirl]

If somebody wants to kill themselves cuz they are in pain, they don't need doctors to do it.

A person could be so incapacitated that relieving themselves could be impossible and assisted suicide is a crime. Doctors could make the process less traumatic. Imagine the love and dispair of the husband or wife that kills their lifetime partner to put an end to the pain and suffering...and often kill themselves for fear of being punished. Legalizing euthanasia would allow for counseling and hopefully prevent abuses.

 

[dilloduck]

A person could be so incapacitated that relieving themselves could be impossible and assisted suicide is a crime. Doctors could make the process less traumatic. Imagine the love and dispair of the husband or wife that kills their lifetime partner to put an end to the pain and suffering...and often kill themselves for fear of being punished. Legalizing euthanasia would allow for counseling and hopefully prevent abuses.

Legalize it for who?? Everyone ??? ---If not everyone WHY NOT ?

 

[sagegirl]

If someone's life is maintained or extended through artificial means, you say doctors are acting to fulfill God's will. If someone's life is shortened through artificial means you say that doctors are defying God's will. You want to have it both ways.

The real pity is that you believe a deity would have to resort to duress in order to extort faith.

The answer to your last question is obvious...if the person died the day before a cure was found, it must have been God's will.

Excellent!

 

[Bonnie]

A person could be so incapacitated that relieving themselves could be impossible and assisted suicide is a crime. Doctors could make the process less traumatic. Imagine the love and dispair of the husband or wife that kills their lifetime partner to put an end to the pain and suffering...and often kill themselves for fear of being punished. Legalizing euthanasia would allow for counseling and hopefully prevent abuses.

That's carrying things to the extreme, don't you think?
How about we just legalize excuses for everything in life that may cause us pain or inconvenience, and every possible scenario???

 

[Bonnie]

Excellent!

Adressed all those things in post above.

 

[sagegirl]

Legalize it for who?? Everyone ??? ---If not everyone WHY NOT ?

yes, for everyone. I guess I might have some board to oversee it if thats necessary. The excuses here to deny it seem to do with some very religious assumptions, thats a personal thing, no one would or should be forced into it.
A child would hopefully have parents/guardians to make a decision, but (and I hate to say it) if the childs life is vegetative and the financial responsibility is put upon the tax payers I say no....I say let them check a little box on their tax forms.... I support sustaining life under all conditions and you can take an extra 1000 dollars from my income to pay for my high ideals....then we would see results. The medical costs of keeping a child or adult alive in a vegetative state is astronomical. And perhaps undignified.

 

[no1tovote4]

I thought we were speaking of the LEGAL right suicide. We all don't have that but you are willing to give it to a select few. You really don't see a slippery slope here?

Once again, the only people that may need this help are those that are too incapacitated to be able to make the necessary changes to effect that goal themselves.

Those outside of that type of situation can always find a way, if that is their goal, and have always been able to.

It is only those in this type of situation that the choice is entirely taken from them, that we insure that they must follow a certain moral code and that they no longer with any certainty can effect changes to their soul regardless of what those decisions may have them take upon themselves.

All throughout your life you can make this decision with inpunity, until the time when your incapacitation may finally make you decide it worth it at that point we take away any power to self-involved decisions that effect you in such ways.

 

[sagegirl]

That's carrying things to the extreme, don't you think?
How about we just legalize excuses for everything in life that may cause us pain or inconvenience, and every possible scenario???

Not at all. I have much greater faith in the human spirit than that.
There are those who can make up an excuse for anything and they do. We cannot make our laws and use our personal opinions on the few that would abuse and denigrate our best intentions. We are suppose to live in a free society and that means both taking responsibility for ourselves and allowing others to do the same. If you believe in God, then let God be the ultimate judge. For some of us who prefer to believe in ourselves, do not deny us our beliefs.

 

[Bonnie]

Not at all. I have much greater faith in the human spirit than that.
There are those who can make up an excuse for anything and they do. We cannot make our laws and use our personal opinions on the few that would abuse and denigrate our best intentions. We are suppose to live in a free society and that means both taking responsibility for ourselves and allowing others to do the same. If you believe in God, then let God be the ultimate judge. For some of us who prefer to believe in ourselves, do not deny us our beliefs.

True we can't legislate morality.. nor can we legislate or sanction lack of morality as you suggest. No one is stopping anyone from committing suicide, and by the way, it's not religious people that made up laws preventing people form jumping off a buliding onto pavement. It's usually cops that show up with the handcuffs and the nice white jackets.

 

[no1tovote4]

True we can't legislate morality.. nor can we legislate or sanction lack of morality as you suggest. No one is stopping anyone from committing suicide, and by the way, it's not religious people that made up laws preventing people form jumping off a buliding onto pavement. It's usually cops that show up with the handcuffs and the nice white jackets.

Most of the laws do not prevent anybody who wants to from suiciding. The laws prevent Insurance companies from having to pay on a person who ends their life by choice rather than naturally or by accident. This way a person in desperate financial straights cannot get insurance and whack himself in order to make his family wealthy enough to pay the bills.

People do not get convicted of attempting suicide, they get helped.

The point is that not everybody can effect those changes some are simply too decrepit to be able to commit suicide on their own, and that by taking that moral choice from them we effectively take from them the right to choices that effect their soul.

 

[Bonnie]

Most of the laws do not prevent anybody who wants to from suiciding. The laws prevent Insurance companies from having to pay on a person who ends their life by choice rather than naturally or by accident. This way a person in desperate financial straights cannot get insurance and whack himself in order to make his family wealthy enough to pay the bills.

People do not get convicted of attempting suicide, they get helped.

The point is that not everybody can effect those changes some are simply too decrepit to be able to commit suicide on their own, and that by taking that moral choice from them we effectively take from them the right to choices that effect their soul.

That is true, I was making the point to Sage that it is not priests that made laws to keep society civilized. The church says Suicide is wrong, but society made up rules stopping anyone from plunging to their deaths for reasons you exampled such as insurance deterents, and I would imagine to keep people from wittnessing such an event, and to keep public order. As for your second point, I suppose the best way to handle that is to make sure as people we all stipulate in writing what our wishes are, and this way it absloves anyone in the family or medical community from having to make those decisions. But the idea that a doctor can look at a patient and say I deem their quality of life is bad so let's save some money and bed space and kill them is absurd, and very uncivilized. What if there is someone who can't speak, seems in pain, but really doesn't want to die just yet? A doctor steps in does the deed........there are just too many what if's here and we are talking about human life , death is final at least on this earth.