Let's be Just Like The Netherlands!!

There is no slippery slope to mass euthanasia and eugenics, except in your imagination.
[/QUOTE]

That is a truly scary statement Bully!! I wonder if those in the Netherlands started out thinking the same way??
 

That is a truly scary statement Bully!! I wonder if those in the Netherlands started out thinking the same way??
as long as yo ukeep that decision soley out of the doctors hands, then it shoudnt be too scary
 
Bullypulpit said:
Again, you are wrong. Given the course and progress of a disease process, particularly in the charts I referred you to earlier, it is generally expected that a patient will live for six months or less. It cannot be anymore precise than that. This is a valid expectation given the current state of medical knowledge. If you want an exact time, consult your crystal ball. And yes, patients can survive longer than the six months anticipated, and if they do then good for them! The fact of the matter is that most of the patients who took their own lives in Oregon did so about 40 days after their request for medications to do so. This is in line with the average length of services for our hospice patients. But we do have some patients on service who have been so for 1 or even 2 years. They beat the odds...temporarily.

As defined by Oregon's law, the disease process must be terminal. Intractable, chronic pain such as neuropathy and degenerative joint diseases can, for all but a small number of patients, can be brought under control by medication. For pain which is non-refractory to these medications, there are TENS units which can block pain along the nerve pathways, and in extreme cases, implantable drug administration systems can be used to deliver medication via the same route used in an epidural. In most cases though, chronic intractable pain is the result of lack of knowledge on the part of the physician. Pain resulting from non-terminal process can be managed successfully, and there is no need for the patient to resort to taking their own life. Pain from tumor growth and other terminal processes can be far more difficult to manage without completely snowing the patient. And even then, the possiblity of death resulting from the total cumulative dose of pain medication is always present.

Again, the choice of when to end their lives rests in the hands of the patients. In Oregon's case, there has been no stampede of people rushing to take their own lives. 171 patients out of some 27,000 deaths in 5 years. A minority to be sure, but they had the opportunity to choose when and how they passed.

There is no slippery slope to mass euthanasia and eugenics, except in your imagination.

Oregon has passed a law to make suicide legal under certian conditions . Apparently the purpose of this law is to make it legal for people to avoid pain so that they may die a "dignified" death.
You claim that there are medications that resolve this pain that work in MOST cases. Right now i am personally aware of 2 people who have pain syndromes that are not resolved by any of the methods that you mentioned. They are not terminal. Should they be allowed to kill themselves? How about psychological pain? That is OFTEN only controlled by "snowing" the patient. Should they be allowed to kill themselves? And AGAIN I ask you, why is a painful death NOT dignified ?? Is it not how a person lived his live what makes it dignified and not the details of his death ?
 
Bonnie said:
I hope you are right about that?
docs should not be making any decision about if its best to euth someone or let them live on their own. that is definatley something that the doc needs to interact with the family on.
 
Johnney said:
docs should not be making any decision about if its best to euth someone or let them live on their own. that is definatley something that the doc needs to interact with the family on.

Anyone can kill themselves and the survivors are the only ones to suffer the circumstances--we are talking about a LEGAL sanction here. Why should this legal sanction only apply to people meeting certain criteria ?? If someones life sucks, is painful, they hate it or it's "undignified", why would you not also legally sanction their choice of suicide ? Slope getting more slippery for ya ?
 
dilloduck said:
Anyone can kill themselves and the survivors are the only ones to suffer the circumstances--we are talking about a LEGAL sanction here. Why should this legal sanction only apply to people meeting certain criteria ?? If someones life sucks, is painful, they hate it or it's "undignified", why would you not also legally sanction their choice of suicide ? Slope getting more slippery for ya ?
i think ive already put an answer to that one, #76 for the most part.
 
Johnney said:
i think ive already put an answer to that one, #76 for the most part.
You certainly didn't answer why the non-terminal patient who suffers from the SAME symptoms should be denied sanctioned suicide nor have you defined your need for people to have a dignified death. Where in the hell is dignity in suicide ???
 
Johnney said:
no, thats a freaking nut case who tried to get woman to kill their children, then themselves.
now im trying to understand how you equal one with the other, miles of difference.

bad attempt at a joke,sorry. Any answer to my previous post?
 
dilloduck said:
You certainly didn't answer why the non-terminal patient who suffers from the SAME symptoms should be denied sanctioned suicide nor have you defined your need for people to have a dignified death. Where in the hell is dignity in suicide ???
ok, so non terminals who have the same symtoms. they have a life time of pain and suffering to deal with it. imagine that. a LIFETIME of pain and suffering. what do we consider a life time anymore? 75-80 years? one thing to consider wouldbe have all avenues of approach been used? all means to try to alleviate the pain and suffering been tried? if no, your not a viable subject for it. there is no use assisting someone in killing themselves if there is an operation/ treatment/ medication which will make them comfortable. as this is the last option some people may face. its nto for someone who is depressed/ sick of life/ has no future (in their eyes). its for someone who will never be able to enjoy life due to pain and suffering. someone ate up with cancer for example. ive personally seen people whose meds dont do anything for them, yelling and screaming. now theres dignity.
let them go to sleep and not wake up.

and speaking of which. why shouldnt people have a dignified death? dont you want to go you (metaphorically speaking now) with your head high, saying i gave it my best shot and it beat me, now let me know peace?

ive explained why, now you explain why not.
 
Johnney said:
ok, so non terminals who have the same symtoms. they have a life time of pain and suffering to deal with it. imagine that. a LIFETIME of pain and suffering. what do we consider a life time anymore? 75-80 years? one thing to consider wouldbe have all avenues of approach been used? all means to try to alleviate the pain and suffering been tried? if no, your not a viable subject for it. there is no use assisting someone in killing themselves if there is an operation/ treatment/ medication which will make them comfortable. as this is the last option some people may face. its nto for someone who is depressed/ sick of life/ has no future (in their eyes). its for someone who will never be able to enjoy life due to pain and suffering. someone ate up with cancer for example. ive personally seen people whose meds dont do anything for them, yelling and screaming. now theres dignity.
let them go to sleep and not wake up.

and speaking of which. why shouldnt people have a dignified death? dont you want to go you (metaphorically speaking now) with your head high, saying i gave it my best shot and it beat me, now let me know peace?

ive explained why, now you explain why not.

You still haven't convinced me that a painful death somehow diminshes their dignity. I guess Jesus' death was undignified?
I am also talking about people who have run out of medical options to deal with their pain whether it be terminal or not. Mental pain or physical pain. You are discriminating against those who have the same symptoms as those who have been defined by a DR as terminal. Some psychic pain is terminal but what do we do with those folks ?? LOCK EM UP---now there's dignity :rolleyes:

BTW---What did you do personally to help those you saw writhing and screaming from pain. Just watch em?
 
dilloduck said:
Oregon has passed a law to make suicide legal under certian conditions . Apparently the purpose of this law is to make it legal for people to avoid pain so that they may die a "dignified" death.
You claim that there are medications that resolve this pain that work in MOST cases. Right now i am personally aware of 2 people who have pain syndromes that are not resolved by any of the methods that you mentioned. They are not terminal. Should they be allowed to kill themselves? How about psychological pain? That is OFTEN only controlled by "snowing" the patient. Should they be allowed to kill themselves? And AGAIN I ask you, why is a painful death NOT dignified ?? Is it not how a person lived his live what makes it dignified and not the details of his death ?

I truly wish the best for your friends, having spent the better part of a year in constant and unremitting pain, despite medication. But that's past now, and if your friends aren't getting the relief they need to function normally, they need to find a good pain management specialist. The best place to start would be a teaching or university hospital.

But more to the point, their pain is not the result of a terminal illness, such as metastatic cancer which can only lead to a painful death. Beleive me during that year, I often wished I could just go to sleep and not wake up, but I knew that it was but a temorary situation. A terminal illness is not. I would not want my family's last memories of me to be a pain wracked shell of myself, so tanked on meds I could not recognise them. I would prefer to spend as much time as I could with them, talking with them, sharing the last days of my life with them in a meaningful way. And when the time is right...say my goodbyes and take my meds and shuffle off this mortal coil.
 
Bullypulpit said:
I truly wish the best for your friends, having spent the better part of a year in constant and unremitting pain, despite medication. But that's past now, and if your friends aren't getting the relief they need to function normally, they need to find a good pain management specialist. The best place to start would be a teaching or university hospital.

But more to the point, their pain is not the result of a terminal illness, such as metastatic cancer which can only lead to a painful death. Beleive me during that year, I often wished I could just go to sleep and not wake up, but I knew that it was but a temorary situation. A terminal illness is not. I would not want my family's last memories of me to be a pain wracked shell of myself, so tanked on meds I could not recognise them. I would prefer to spend as much time as I could with them, talking with them, sharing the last days of my life with them in a meaningful way. And when the time is right...say my goodbyes and take my meds and shuffle off this mortal coil.


I am talking about people who have tried ALL--and I mean ALL--methods of pain relief,Bully. They are not terminal in the medical sense however. Are you going to deprive these people of the "final solution" that you so freely offer those that get the "official" terminal diagnosis?
 
[QUOTE said:
dilloduck]You still haven't convinced me that a painful death somehow diminshes their dignity. I guess Jesus' death was undignified?

Ah but there it is Dillo, the truth no one wants to deal with.
Sometimes we all suffer in order to be worthy to attain heaven............That's a hard one to swallow, but if we interrupt someones suffering maybe we are stopping them from achieving a high place in paradise??? suffering is a part of life for all of us in some way or other. Not what people want to hear!!
 
What is the prognosis?


Good progress can be made in treating CRPS if treatment is begun early, ideally within three months of the first symptoms. Early treatment often results in remission. If treatment is delayed, however, the disorder can quickly spread to the entire limb, and changes in bone and muscle may become irreversible. In 50 percent of CRPS cases, pain persists longer than 6months and sometimes for years.
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/reflex_sympathetic_dystrophy/reflex_sympathetic_dystrophy.htm

People with antibiotic restant infections are NOT candidates for implants or TENS units. Can they kill themselves now or will they be legally relegated to the "undignified death " status you condemn them to?
 
Bonnie said:
Ah but there it is Dillo said:
Do you take aspirin for a headache? If you have a toothache, do you go to the dentist for relief? If suffering is this wonderful gift in order to get into heaven, then why bother to treat people at all? Let's just shut down all the hospitals, kill all the doctors (painfully, so they too can benefit from suffering) and just let nature run it's course in all matters. :rolleyes:
 
MissileMan said:
Bonnie said:
Do you take aspirin for a headache? If you have a toothache, do you go to the dentist for relief? If suffering is this wonderful gift in order to get into heaven, then why bother to treat people at all? Let's just shut down all the hospitals, kill all the doctors (painfully, so they too can benefit from suffering) and just let nature run it's course in all matters. :rolleyes:


LOL, there is quite a difference to taking an aspirin or medication to help oneself feel better, and having a doctor help to kill a patient. I don't expect anyone to understand this, especially those who don't believe in an afterlife, so Im not getting into it with you, it would be pointless. Of course no one wants to see anyone suffer, and It is God that gives doctors and science it's sucess, another concept lost on those that don't beleive......Anyway from my perspective there is no dignity in unnatural death unless you are giving your life for someone else. How about instead of death with dignity, it's called pity killing.

Try for just a moment to look at it like this; Suppose someone did something/s really shitty in their life, and they are suffering for that later on in that life because God wants every one of us to get to heaven. So in that suffering they find God, they give their family courage, and when they do die, they get unimaginable happiness. When you kill them you may be taking away their last opportunity to get that?
That's all Im saying??

One last question? What if the day after you kill someone out of pity, they find a cure for what that person had and now, oh well too late! You would probably say that's too improbable huh?
 

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