Khalid Sheik Mohammed: "I Gave A Lot Of False Information" To Make Torture Stop

[Nik]

Bullshit!!! The ones that went to Russia were like North Korea, Venezuela? Wow! That's is just a spin...keep trying though.

Umm, no. Ever heard of a little state called the USSR? Ever heard of Iran? Ever heard of Cuba? Ever heard of Guatemala? The Phillipines? Hungary? Etc, etc.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Iran and Cuba.
Guatamala and the drugs...now that makes sense too

Sure...don't care if Iran hates us, and treat them like shit. But then stop your bitching when they fund Iraqis to blow up our soldiers.

 

[Nik]

Oh, you mean shit countries. They can have those guys.

Umm, considering 19 guys from a "shit country" massacred 3,000 Americans, that type of attitude is really fucking stupid. Its a globalized world now, dismissing hundreds of millions of people as being from a "shit country" is idiotic.

You realize that the countries you are talking about use torture themselves, only far more, and they go way beyond simple water boarding. Go watch the video of the Prince of Saudi Arabia. Should we be trying to win over guys like him?

Yeah, and if they get their hands on a US citizen and decide to torture them, we have absolutely jack shit for leverage now. Awesome!

 

[PoliticalChic]

Let me ask a rational question:

If 9/11 had not occured, would you consider waterboarding torture? I dare say that, even though you won't admit it, everyone on this board would have considered it torture, hands down. What changed? We allowed the cowardly terrorist who flew their planes into buildings to redefine out moral standing on torture.

So, if you do support waterboarding now, you allowed the terrorist to win...your mind.

Arguments?

You asked the question, and then answer it in the manner you would like it answered. Quite an advanced debating technique.

Bet your put-away is "so are you."

It's interrogation, not torture.

Here's torture. You get to watch the news on September eleventh, and see your brother or sister or wife or husband or father or mother make the decision between being burned to death or jumping to certain death.

Every day of your life you get to remember that sight. What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Everytime the phone rings you anticipate that loved one on the other end of the phone line. But then you remember.

Every day.

That's torture.

And if torture is required to save the life of even one honest, hard working human, than rather than worry about what a rationalizationist, like yourself, thinks about me, then hand me the car battery and jumper cable.

So you disagree with the Japanese who got convicted for torture after waterboarding Americans? Why don't you go and defend them, and speak out about their right to waterboard Americans and how its not torture?

If we, as Americans torture, what exactly gives us the right, other than naked self-interested preservation, to be outraged when people fly planes into our buildings? What wrong have they done, objectively, to try to destroy a nation that tortures? When you acquiese to torture, you give up your wrong to talk about the evils of others. If you acquiese to torture, YOU are evil, and hence when you talk about others being evil, you must include yourself in that.

Would you like to document the Japanese who " got convicted for torture after waterboarding Americans"?
"...to try to destroy a nation that tortures." Ah, a member of the 'Blame America First' Club.

Research will show that one Japanese was convicted of war crimes listing a melange of brutalities, of which waterboarding was but one. Very different from the implication of your post.

Again, Americans don't torture, and the list from Guantanamo does not include tortures, only enhanced interrogation techniques.

How about Eric Holder's opinion:
""One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

"It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not."

How are people, who are in our custody, going to be treated? And those in Europe and other places who are concerned about the treatment of al Qaeda members should come to Camp X-ray and see how the people are, in fact, being treated."

--Eric Holder, CNN interview, January 2002

 

[PoliticalChic]

After reading the replies on this thread, the proof is overwhelming that right wingers are consumed and totally controlled by FEAR...the strongest human EMOTION...It drives everything they do...

It also proves they believe people are basically EVIL, but it is really self reflection...

One right winger called for killing EVERYONE and everything...men, women, children and even dogs...

THAT is called genocide...the methods of a Hitler or Pol Pot...

You right wingers are free to have your opinion, but PLEASE don't try to EVER claim that fascism is leftist...


It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.
Camus

You mean the left wingers. You are so afraid that the world will see us as the bad guys if we use harsh interrogation techniques that you're willing to sacrifice innocent American lives in order to treat terrorists with the kid gloves you believe they deserve. What part of 'jihad' don't you understand?

You do know that the "world seeing us as bad guys" is problematic, right? Considering we have relations with most of the world and the more people who hate us, the more people who will try to fly planes into our buildings?

Outside of some of the Muslim faith, who would be piloting those planes?

 

[Godboy]

Umm, considering 19 guys from a "shit country" massacred 3,000 Americans, that type of attitude is really fucking stupid. Its a globalized world now, dismissing hundreds of millions of people as being from a "shit country" is idiotic.

You realize that the countries you are talking about use torture themselves, only far more, and they go way beyond simple water boarding. Go watch the video of the Prince of Saudi Arabia. Should we be trying to win over guys like him?

Yeah, and if they get their hands on a US citizen and decide to torture them, we have absolutely jack shit for leverage now. Awesome!

Please explain what leverage we had before now.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You do know that the "world seeing us as bad guys" is problematic, right? Considering we have relations with most of the world and the more people who hate us, the more people who will try to fly planes into our buildings?

And when the nations of the world need help the most...the first country they go to is the "bad guys", so go drink some of that Kool-Aid. FYI...Most of the world doesn't see us as the "bad guys".

No, actually, increasingly they are going to other countries. In fact, for many years many of them went to Russia. And, as I posted, Anti-Americanism is rampant, or was during the Bush years.

I see you are part of the Delusional Wing of the left. Try to see the reality beyond your hatred.

"“The United States is comically bad at making its own case,” Maddox writes in the book’s opening pages. This observation will ring true to those Americans who wonder how their country—which welcomes more immigrants than any other, is more generous in its foreign aid than any other, and whose culture is so popular—could be loathed by so many. It will sound even more spot-on to those non-Americans, like Maddox, who consider themselves friends of the United States. For years, overseas admirers of the U.S. have had to endure witless editorials and boorish dinner companions ranting about how Uncle Sam is the root of all evil. Unfortunately, the government of the United States has failed miserably at defending itself in the court of world opinion.
Maddox makes the case for American indispensability. “American values are Western values,” she titles her third chapter. She stresses to her non-American readers that whatever differences they might have with America, they would do well to understand that the United States ultimately stands for individual rights, political freedom, and the free exchange of goods—all distinctly Western ideas.
CJ Mobile

 

[Shogun]

I think we are in agreement once again. There is nothing effective about making someone admit they murdered Sharon Tate. Why would anyone waste their time doing that when we already know who murdered her?

Instead of making random people admit things we know they didnt do, the better use of torture is to interrogate terrorists to find out what thier plans are.

ironically, i'm sure the ghost of Saddam Heusein would agree with you. Go ahead and keep being obtuse about how useless torture is while you readily admit that you could be brought to admit that you killed Sharon Tate. After all, if we didn't already have Charles Manson in jail and you were busy being waterboarded until you confessed to his murders i'm sure you'd take a different stand on the issue.

Who ever said we should be torturing simple murder suspects?

hey, if it's SO EFFECTIVE, Uday, WHY NOT? Are lives saved NOT worth a little torture? Hell, we can probably even make our OLYMPIC TEAM perform better!

 

[PoliticalChic]

That's the history lesson?

Childlike? A child is unaware of consequences. That's why they can't cross the street until they are aware that cars are dangerous...

And, you just stepped in front of a speeding semi...SPLAT!!!

Torture and abuse by Americans at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo led directly to a large increase in American casualties in Iraq and has been the major recruiting tool of al Qaeda...Bush turned hundreds of terrorists into thousands...

Says WHO? Someone that was there, and interrogated prisoners in Iraq...

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

Then, you use Georges Clemenceau to drive home your point...WOW!

French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau was a major voice behind the Treaty of Versailles. It was Clemenceau and France that were much more aggressive and demanded the treaty be punitive. The result of HIS beliefs led to Nazi Germany and World War II...

SPLAT!!!

SPLAT! WOW! HOLY HISTORY BATMAN!

Naw, not childlike at all. Congrats on the improvement on your vocabulary.

I believe you missed the question, as you have missed so much in life, but to reprise, are you going to claim that Lincoln and FDR are fascists?

The bogus story used by the left that our actions in Abu Ghraib served as recruitment for Al Qaeda is no more than a talking point. Your article is dated 2008.

In 2005, "Al-Qaeda leaders have proclaimed Iraq a major front in their global terrorist campaign. This was made clear in a July 9, 2005, letter from Osama bin Laden’s chief lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, to Abu Musab Zarqawi, who was then leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq."
Iraq Is a Strategic Battleground in the War Against Terrorism

There is no proof that a "the major recruiting tool " was even necessary.

"A child is unaware of consequences." Exactly my point with respect to your inability to see the efficacy of enhanced interrogation. Our challenge is to prevent the evil ones from killing even one more of our citizens. Can't see that, huh?

That's why your left-wing heros like Church and Torricelli prevented our intell community from recruiting spys. "A child is unaware of consequences."

And, of course, the winner in the category of unintentional humor is ... you. Read this part of your quote carefully, not the method you learned in government schools, but carefully:
"It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, ..."

At least half... of a number that will never be known.????

You must be a Crypto-Conservative, because you make liberals look so bad. It's really not fair. Fun, but not fair.

Umm, actually LOTS of officials have said the best thing to ever happen to AQ was Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. Oh, and learn the definition for the word "definitive".

Documentation?

Oh, you don't need proof: you're a liberal.

Tutorial time:
"For liberals, feeling passes for knowing. We see this in the oft-repeated claim that the use of “torture” techniques has been a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda. Where is the proof of this claim?
For liberals, taking guns away from lawful citizens is tantamount to solving the crime problem. Where is the proof?"

 

[Shogun]

SPLAT! WOW! HOLY HISTORY BATMAN!

Naw, not childlike at all. Congrats on the improvement on your vocabulary.

I believe you missed the question, as you have missed so much in life, but to reprise, are you going to claim that Lincoln and FDR are fascists?

The bogus story used by the left that our actions in Abu Ghraib served as recruitment for Al Qaeda is no more than a talking point. Your article is dated 2008.

In 2005, "Al-Qaeda leaders have proclaimed Iraq a major front in their global terrorist campaign. This was made clear in a July 9, 2005, letter from Osama bin Laden’s chief lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, to Abu Musab Zarqawi, who was then leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq."
Iraq Is a Strategic Battleground in the War Against Terrorism

There is no proof that a "the major recruiting tool " was even necessary.

"A child is unaware of consequences." Exactly my point with respect to your inability to see the efficacy of enhanced interrogation. Our challenge is to prevent the evil ones from killing even one more of our citizens. Can't see that, huh?

That's why your left-wing heros like Church and Torricelli prevented our intell community from recruiting spys. "A child is unaware of consequences."

And, of course, the winner in the category of unintentional humor is ... you. Read this part of your quote carefully, not the method you learned in government schools, but carefully:
"It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, ..."

At least half... of a number that will never be known.????

You must be a Crypto-Conservative, because you make liberals look so bad. It's really not fair. Fun, but not fair.

Umm, actually LOTS of officials have said the best thing to ever happen to AQ was Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. Oh, and learn the definition for the word "definitive".

In a world full of people, you will hear all kinds of different opinions, many of them based on ignorance. The fact is, torture works very well when used properly.

I think i'll go ahead and put more water in the bucket of men who have a bit more experience in the matter than some net crusader with nothing more than an opinion and a line to tow, thanks!

 

[Godboy]

Umm, actually LOTS of officials have said the best thing to ever happen to AQ was Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. Oh, and learn the definition for the word "definitive".

In a world full of people, you will hear all kinds of different opinions, many of them based on ignorance. The fact is, torture works very well when used properly.

I think i'll go ahead and put more water in the bucket of men who have a bit more experience in the matter than some net crusader with nothing more than an opinion and a line to tow, thanks!

Are you talking about me or yourself?

You dont need take my word for anything. You can refer to "men who have more experience on the matter".

Bush-era interrogation may have worked, Obama official says - CNN.com

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/01/cia_director_michael_hayden_sa.html

http://blog.seattlepi.com/militarywire/archives/167064.asp

 

[Toro]

The government is going to say that torture has prevented attacks. The enemy is going to say that they gave them false information. Why would anyone expect anything other than this?

 

[Godboy]

The government is going to say that torture has prevented attacks. The enemy is going to say that they gave them false information. Why would anyone expect anything other than this?

The current administration has nothing to gain by admitting Bush's people got the job done. In fact, it pisses off Obamas supporters to no end. Admitting torture worked isnt an easy thing for Obamas team to do.

 

[Shogun]

In a world full of people, you will hear all kinds of different opinions, many of them based on ignorance. The fact is, torture works very well when used properly.

I think i'll go ahead and put more water in the bucket of men who have a bit more experience in the matter than some net crusader with nothing more than an opinion and a line to tow, thanks!

Are you talking about me or yourself?

You dont need take my word for anything. You can refer to "men who have more experience on the matter".

Bush-era interrogation may have worked, Obama official says - CNN.com

CIA director Michael Hayden says coercive and harsh interrogations techniques worked -

Obama Administration Admits "Torture" Techniques Effective

Hey, you've won me over, dude! Hell, not only can we bring utopian peace to the fucking globe by torturing terrorists and average, everyday American criminals but I bet we can improve the national SAT average by a good 500 points with a little good ole AMERICAN TORTURE! Fuck those old bastards who, you know, HAVE BEEN tortured. As if their experience means anything besides MOLDING their bias... hell, I'm off to go invent some Torture Flakes cereal as we speak! Remember, kiddies, an Iron Maiden is part of a healthy, balanced breakfast! I just can't wait for the torture induced SUPERBOWL! That shit WORKS! godboy SAYS SO!

 

[Bfgrn]

Let me help you out. Which way did you come in? Oh, that was too simple.

But it's the childllike simplicity of your rant, complete with cap letters, that leads one to use those silly one-liners. Bet you'd rather be posting with big fat crayons.

There is no liberal bashing here, but of course, liberals see any criticism as 'bashing.' Didn't you see my reference to liberals as our brethren?

No, it was a history lesson. Are you going to claim that Lincoln and FDR are fascists?

Now, pay attention, this is not government school: you're actually meant to learn something. Conservatives recognize the threat, confront evil in an efficacious manner, in this case enhanced interrogation, and thus defeat it.

We are "NOT consumed and controlled by FEAR ," we recognize that some people are evil, and need to be treated differently than those who are, like yoursef, misguided, or good folks, who should be protected.

Here you have exemplified an important flaw in liberals:
"A Liberals axiom is that harmony is natural, a misreading of human nature. It should be remembered that when Woodrow Wilson asked Georges Clemenceau, prime minister of France, “Don’t you believe that all men are brothers,” Clemenceau replied “Yes- Cain and Abel.” The result of this belief is that country’s defenses are lowered by liberals, as represented by the Church Committee hearings, the Pike committee, the Torricelli Amendments, all of which tied the hands of the intelligence community, and made it necessary for the Bush Administration to use enhanced interrogation methods. And, of course, the liberal community raged that we were not treating terrorists like our brothers. To gain an understanding of human nature, consider reading The Naked Ape, by DesmondMorris. "

Did you read carefully?
Good, now fold your paper, number one to five, and no erasing and no crossing out. Good luck. If you pass, we may be able to move you out of the remedial,er, liberal class.

That's the history lesson?

Childlike? A child is unaware of consequences. That's why they can't cross the street until they are aware that cars are dangerous...

And, you just stepped in front of a speeding semi...SPLAT!!!

Torture and abuse by Americans at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo led directly to a large increase in American casualties in Iraq and has been the major recruiting tool of al Qaeda...Bush turned hundreds of terrorists into thousands...

Says WHO? Someone that was there, and interrogated prisoners in Iraq...

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

Then, you use Georges Clemenceau to drive home your point...WOW!

French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau was a major voice behind the Treaty of Versailles. It was Clemenceau and France that were much more aggressive and demanded the treaty be punitive. The result of HIS beliefs led to Nazi Germany and World War II...

SPLAT!!!

SPLAT! WOW! HOLY HISTORY BATMAN!

Naw, not childlike at all. Congrats on the improvement on your vocabulary.

I believe you missed the question, as you have missed so much in life, but to reprise, are you going to claim that Lincoln and FDR are fascists?

The bogus story used by the left that our actions in Abu Ghraib served as recruitment for Al Qaeda is no more than a talking point. Your article is dated 2008.

In 2005, "Al-Qaeda leaders have proclaimed Iraq a major front in their global terrorist campaign. This was made clear in a July 9, 2005, letter from Osama bin Laden’s chief lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, to Abu Musab Zarqawi, who was then leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq."
Iraq Is a Strategic Battleground in the War Against Terrorism

There is no proof that a "the major recruiting tool " was even necessary.

"A child is unaware of consequences." Exactly my point with respect to your inability to see the efficacy of enhanced interrogation. Our challenge is to prevent the evil ones from killing even one more of our citizens. Can't see that, huh?

That's why your left-wing heros like Church and Torricelli prevented our intell community from recruiting spys. "A child is unaware of consequences."

And, of course, the winner in the category of unintentional humor is ... you. Read this part of your quote carefully, not the method you learned in government schools, but carefully:
"It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, ..."

At least half... of a number that will never be known.????

You must be a Crypto-Conservative, because you make liberals look so bad. It's really not fair. Fun, but not fair.

The "bogus" story you refer to is prefaced: AN INTERROGATOR SPEAKS, written by an interrogator that said in an interview:

"I listened time and time again to foreign fighters, and Sunni Iraqis, state that the number one reason they had decided to pick up arms and join Al Qaeda was the abuses at Abu Ghraib and the authorized torture and abuse at Guantánamo Bay. My team of interrogators knew that we would become Al Qaeda’s best recruiters if we resorted to torture. Torture is counterproductive to keeping America safe and it doesn’t matter if we do it or if we pass it off to another government. The result is the same. And morally, I believe, there is an even stronger argument. Torture is simply incompatible with American principles. George Washington and Abraham Lincoln both forbade their troops from torturing prisoners of war. They realized, as the recent bipartisan Senate report echoes, that this is about who we are. We cannot become our enemy in trying to defeat him.
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036

Our challenge is to prevent the evil ones from killing even one more of our citizens. Can't see that, huh?

Even one of our citizens huh?

It's funny you mentioned Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who prefaced his beheading of American Nicholas Berg with these words: “we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins...slaughtered in this way.”

Thankfully Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead...guess WHO secured the information that allowed the military to pinpoint al Zarqawi’s whereabouts and kill him?

BTW, I see you dropped French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau like a hot potato...

At least half... of a number that will never be known.????

You only required even one so you're excused for forgetting what you just said a few paragraphs earlier.

I don't believe Lincoln or FDR were fascists...but fear can make even intelligent liberals make rash decisions...on rare occasions. BTW, In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation stated that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership". About $1.6 billion in reparations were later disbursed by the U.S. government to surviving internees and their heirs.
wiki

You're not doing very well, I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Nik]

You asked the question, and then answer it in the manner you would like it answered. Quite an advanced debating technique.

Bet your put-away is "so are you."

It's interrogation, not torture.

Here's torture. You get to watch the news on September eleventh, and see your brother or sister or wife or husband or father or mother make the decision between being burned to death or jumping to certain death.

Every day of your life you get to remember that sight. What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Everytime the phone rings you anticipate that loved one on the other end of the phone line. But then you remember.

Every day.

That's torture.

And if torture is required to save the life of even one honest, hard working human, than rather than worry about what a rationalizationist, like yourself, thinks about me, then hand me the car battery and jumper cable.

So you disagree with the Japanese who got convicted for torture after waterboarding Americans? Why don't you go and defend them, and speak out about their right to waterboard Americans and how its not torture?

If we, as Americans torture, what exactly gives us the right, other than naked self-interested preservation, to be outraged when people fly planes into our buildings? What wrong have they done, objectively, to try to destroy a nation that tortures? When you acquiese to torture, you give up your wrong to talk about the evils of others. If you acquiese to torture, YOU are evil, and hence when you talk about others being evil, you must include yourself in that.

Would you like to document the Japanese who " got convicted for torture after waterboarding Americans"?
"...to try to destroy a nation that tortures." Ah, a member of the 'Blame America First' Club.

Research will show that one Japanese was convicted of war crimes listing a melange of brutalities, of which waterboarding was but one. Very different from the implication of your post.

Again, Americans don't torture, and the list from Guantanamo does not include tortures, only enhanced interrogation techniques.

How about Eric Holder's opinion:
""One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

"It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not."

How are people, who are in our custody, going to be treated? And those in Europe and other places who are concerned about the treatment of al Qaeda members should come to Camp X-ray and see how the people are, in fact, being treated."

--Eric Holder, CNN interview, January 2002

It doesn't matter if the Japanese got convicted for other things as well. One of the things he got convicted for was waterboarding, and they called it TORTURE, which it is.

Hahaha...not torture only "enhanced interrogation techniques"...its not genocide, its just solving the "jewish problem". Euphemisms doesn't make it any less brutal.

And many Americans thought we treated people fairly in 2001 and 2002. The details of what Bush co were doing didn't come out until after that.

 

[Nik]

And when the nations of the world need help the most...the first country they go to is the "bad guys", so go drink some of that Kool-Aid. FYI...Most of the world doesn't see us as the "bad guys".

No, actually, increasingly they are going to other countries. In fact, for many years many of them went to Russia. And, as I posted, Anti-Americanism is rampant, or was during the Bush years.

I see you are part of the Delusional Wing of the left. Try to see the reality beyond your hatred.

"“The United States is comically bad at making its own case,” Maddox writes in the book’s opening pages. This observation will ring true to those Americans who wonder how their country—which welcomes more immigrants than any other, is more generous in its foreign aid than any other, and whose culture is so popular—could be loathed by so many. It will sound even more spot-on to those non-Americans, like Maddox, who consider themselves friends of the United States. For years, overseas admirers of the U.S. have had to endure witless editorials and boorish dinner companions ranting about how Uncle Sam is the root of all evil. Unfortunately, the government of the United States has failed miserably at defending itself in the court of world opinion.
Maddox makes the case for American indispensability. “American values are Western values,” she titles her third chapter. She stresses to her non-American readers that whatever differences they might have with America, they would do well to understand that the United States ultimately stands for individual rights, political freedom, and the free exchange of goods—all distinctly Western ideas.
CJ Mobile

We DO stand for those things. Which is why its important for us not to betray our values and start fucking torturing people.

 

[PoliticalChic]

That's the history lesson?

Childlike? A child is unaware of consequences. That's why they can't cross the street until they are aware that cars are dangerous...

And, you just stepped in front of a speeding semi...SPLAT!!!

Torture and abuse by Americans at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo led directly to a large increase in American casualties in Iraq and has been the major recruiting tool of al Qaeda...Bush turned hundreds of terrorists into thousands...

Says WHO? Someone that was there, and interrogated prisoners in Iraq...

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

Then, you use Georges Clemenceau to drive home your point...WOW!

French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau was a major voice behind the Treaty of Versailles. It was Clemenceau and France that were much more aggressive and demanded the treaty be punitive. The result of HIS beliefs led to Nazi Germany and World War II...

SPLAT!!!

SPLAT! WOW! HOLY HISTORY BATMAN!

Naw, not childlike at all. Congrats on the improvement on your vocabulary.

I believe you missed the question, as you have missed so much in life, but to reprise, are you going to claim that Lincoln and FDR are fascists?

The bogus story used by the left that our actions in Abu Ghraib served as recruitment for Al Qaeda is no more than a talking point. Your article is dated 2008.

In 2005, "Al-Qaeda leaders have proclaimed Iraq a major front in their global terrorist campaign. This was made clear in a July 9, 2005, letter from Osama bin Laden’s chief lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, to Abu Musab Zarqawi, who was then leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq."
Iraq Is a Strategic Battleground in the War Against Terrorism

There is no proof that a "the major recruiting tool " was even necessary.

"A child is unaware of consequences." Exactly my point with respect to your inability to see the efficacy of enhanced interrogation. Our challenge is to prevent the evil ones from killing even one more of our citizens. Can't see that, huh?

That's why your left-wing heros like Church and Torricelli prevented our intell community from recruiting spys. "A child is unaware of consequences."

And, of course, the winner in the category of unintentional humor is ... you. Read this part of your quote carefully, not the method you learned in government schools, but carefully:
"It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, ..."

At least half... of a number that will never be known.????

You must be a Crypto-Conservative, because you make liberals look so bad. It's really not fair. Fun, but not fair.

The "bogus" story you refer to is prefaced: AN INTERROGATOR SPEAKS, written by an interrogator that said in an interview:

"I listened time and time again to foreign fighters, and Sunni Iraqis, state that the number one reason they had decided to pick up arms and join Al Qaeda was the abuses at Abu Ghraib and the authorized torture and abuse at Guantánamo Bay. My team of interrogators knew that we would become Al Qaeda’s best recruiters if we resorted to torture. Torture is counterproductive to keeping America safe and it doesn’t matter if we do it or if we pass it off to another government. The result is the same. And morally, I believe, there is an even stronger argument. Torture is simply incompatible with American principles. George Washington and Abraham Lincoln both forbade their troops from torturing prisoners of war. They realized, as the recent bipartisan Senate report echoes, that this is about who we are. We cannot become our enemy in trying to defeat him.
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036

Our challenge is to prevent the evil ones from killing even one more of our citizens. Can't see that, huh?

Even one of our citizens huh?

It's funny you mentioned Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who prefaced his beheading of American Nicholas Berg with these words: “we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins...slaughtered in this way.”

Thankfully Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead...guess WHO secured the information that allowed the military to pinpoint al Zarqawi’s whereabouts and kill him?

BTW, I see you dropped French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau like a hot potato...

At least half... of a number that will never be known.????

You only required even one so you're excused for forgetting what you just said a few paragraphs earlier.

I don't believe Lincoln or FDR were fascists...but fear can make even intelligent liberals make rash decisions...on rare occasions. BTW, In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation stated that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership". About $1.6 billion in reparations were later disbursed by the U.S. government to surviving internees and their heirs.
wiki

You're not doing very well, I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

Did you note that the vast majority of the Harper's quote is conjecture, opinion?
Opinion.
And the major portion of your defense is quotes, directly or indirectly, from terrorists.
I hear an echo: ". Liberals, it seems, are unable to recognize evil, and therefore are psychologically unable to deal with it.We see this in our left-leaning friends ability to identify with the victimizer, but not the victim. We see it in the consoling of the drug abusing, law breaking criminal, but detachment from the recipient of their criminality."
And here you are, confident in your belief of the veracity of our enemies.

"Even one of our citizens.' What's the problem?

You know, the only reason that I succumb to answering any of your posts is that I so enjoy re-reading the parts that I post. So much would be wasted effort if I were writing for your edification, since you seem so, what, uneducable. Posting for/to you is double work, since I must then explain it to you.
For example, "I see you dropped French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau like a hot potato..."
The point of the quote, which, of course, was beyond your comprehension, was that Wilson didn't understand the nature of men anymore than you do.
Again, borrow a library card and see if you can get through Morris' "The Naked Ape." Enlightening.

So you favor the points I made re: Lincoln and FDR, yet state "......but fear can make even intelligent liberals make rash decisions..."
Consider the deficits in your logic, as the fact that you endorse their intelligence, and yet counter your statement by positing that they make rash decisions. You should work on your ability to communicate content.
And, of course, if you understood why I mentioned FDR and the Japanese, which was an attempt to protect the nation, you wouldn't have felt it necessary to state how we made amends. You see, the point is that we protect the nation, and then return to the more civil ways of life. I tire of having to explain everything to you.

"think you need to go back to the drawing board..." Did you think that writng an essay requires a drawing board? Are comic books the basis of your education, such as it is? Do you know what a mixed metaphor is? Government schooling again.

And just one note on your use of language: As William Faulkner said of Ernest Hemingway, "He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary."

You have much work to do.

 

[Meister]

Umm, no. Ever heard of a little state called the USSR? Ever heard of Iran? Ever heard of Cuba? Ever heard of Guatemala? The Phillipines? Hungary? Etc, etc.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Iran and Cuba.
Guatamala and the drugs...now that makes sense too

Sure...don't care if Iran hates us, and treat them like shit. But then stop your bitching when they fund Iraqis to blow up our soldiers.

Dude...there are evil countries in this world...you just pointed to several of them. But, we aren't one of the evil countries.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Umm, actually LOTS of officials have said the best thing to ever happen to AQ was Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. Oh, and learn the definition for the word "definitive".

In a world full of people, you will hear all kinds of different opinions, many of them based on ignorance. The fact is, torture works very well when used properly.

I think i'll go ahead and put more water in the bucket of men who have a bit more experience in the matter than some net crusader with nothing more than an opinion and a line to tow, thanks!

Yeah... That's right... stand in contest of common sense, because some other dumbass said ya should.

BRILLIANT!

 

[Nik]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Iran and Cuba.
Guatamala and the drugs...now that makes sense too

Sure...don't care if Iran hates us, and treat them like shit. But then stop your bitching when they fund Iraqis to blow up our soldiers.

Dude...there are evil countries in this world...you just pointed to several of them. But, we aren't one of the evil countries.

No, we are good, and wholesome, we stand for freedom....but if it comes to sacrificing some American lives for those values, well, we'll just sacrifice the values without a second thought.

If you advocate torture, you don't get to say we aren't evil. You can give whatever bullshit defense you want, but torture is evil, and people who do it are evil, and state sponsored torture makes this country evil.