Jude 1 of The Bible's NT vs Gays: A Tutorial On Baking Cakes & Adoption

[Syriusly]

Romans 1 and the Bible itself says that God's commands are superior to men's.

Romans 1: 23: " And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

Clearly when there is a conflict, such as Romans 13 vs Romans 1 & Jude 1, Christians default to the uncorruptable Command. More is said about that in Jude where it goes on to describe how in Sodom and cultures like it, smooth speech and other manipulations by corruptable and corrupt men are to be ignored in favor of God's Commandment to heed the warning.

Romans 1:

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

****

Why would you encourage Christians who know the 'judgement of God'- as noted in Romans 13- to break the law?
Romans 13 says that Man's laws because of God.
According to Romans 13, Christians are supposed to follow God's law by following Man's law.

Romans 13New Century Version (NCV)
Christians Should Obey the Law
13 All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God. 2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3 Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you. 4 The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

 

[Silhouette]

Because corruptable men make laws that defy God's uncorruptable decrees. The direct conflict in those laws that gay marriage created defaults automatically to Romans 1 and Jude 1 as dominant. Sorry.

 

[Silhouette]

Every Christian knows if there is a conflict God's law is followed. And there most definitely is a conflict when it comes to gay marriage.

 

[Syriusly]

Every Christian knows if there is a conflict God's law is followed. And there most definitely is a conflict when it comes to gay marriage.

Romans 13 makes it clear that Mans law is God's law- glad to refresh your memory again:
And remember there is no law in the Bible that says a Christian can't bake a wedding cake.
Romans 13New Century Version (NCV)
Christians Should Obey the Law
13 All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God.
2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3 Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you.
4 The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

 

[The Derp]

Bible Gateway passage: Jude - King James Version

Jude 1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

********

In short, it is a mortal sin for a Christian to enable the spread of homosexuality within a culture. But it is not a sin to reach out to the homosexual individual "making a difference".

Baking:

Scenario 1: A gay couple walks into a bakery and wants a cake "for a party". The Christian baker says "would you like chocolate or vanilla icing? The Christian serves all individual sinners. This would apply to scones, cookies, mints, bread, muffins and the like.

Scenario 2: A gay couple walks into a bakery and wants a cake (or scones, cookies, mints, bread, muffins and the like) for their "wedding". The Christian baker says "no, I would face eternal damnation".

The problem for the Christian in #2 is that s/he would be enabling the spread of homosexuality as a CULTURE throughout the mainstream via the vehicle of marriage (or adoption or education...any social vehicle like that which spreads ideas "as good").

Adoption:

Whereas the cake scenario is in the religious arena, adoption is in both the religious and the legal arena. Not only would a Christian person be forbidden from letting an orphan child into such abomination to be instructed and raised up in the sinning culture, but any person, Christian or not, must not allow a child to be let into a contract which banishes said child for life from either a mother or father. For further information, read here: The Gay Marriage vs Children's Rights Impending Legal-Collision Looms Closer

Here's the thing about bullshit religious freedom arguments; they're self-contradicting. The entire reason they worship God and Jesus is because God forgives your sins that Jesus died for. But if a Christian is claiming that it violates their religious beliefs to bake a gay cake, then that means the God they worship doesn't forgive and Jesus died for nothing. I thought God was supposed to forgive all Christians if they accept Jesus in their heart. So, what, God's forgiveness extends to child molestation but not baking a cake?

Kinda makes the religious arguments against equal rights bullshit, doesn't it?

 

[Silhouette]

Here's the thing about bullshit religious freedom arguments; they're self-contradicting. The entire reason they worship God and Jesus is because God forgives your sins that Jesus died for. But if a Christian is claiming that it violates their religious beliefs to bake a gay cake, then that means the God they worship doesn't forgive and Jesus died for nothing. I thought God was supposed to forgive all Christians if they accept Jesus in their heart. So, what, God's forgiveness extends to child molestation but not baking a cake?

Kinda makes the religious arguments against equal rights bullshit, doesn't it?

Well as it turns out, you and the lawyers representing your ilk are fallible humans. God is infallible. His commandments on the gay are clear. People are to forgive the sin of homosexuality. They are just not allowed in any way shape or form to aide it as a subculture to hijack any facet of a society. Clearly marriage is the epitome of that hijacking and is forbidden under pain of eternal soul peril for failure to abide.

 

[Syriusly]

Here's the thing about bullshit religious freedom arguments; they're self-contradicting. The entire reason they worship God and Jesus is because God forgives your sins that Jesus died for. But if a Christian is claiming that it violates their religious beliefs to bake a gay cake, then that means the God they worship doesn't forgive and Jesus died for nothing. I thought God was supposed to forgive all Christians if they accept Jesus in their heart. So, what, God's forgiveness extends to child molestation but not baking a cake?

Kinda makes the religious arguments against equal rights bullshit, doesn't it?

They are just not allowed in any way shape or form to aide it as a subculture to hijack any facet of a society.

Christians are however to follow the law- Romans 13 if very clear and unambiguous about that- because authorities are representatives of God- and when Christians defy the law they are defying God's will.

Romans 13

 

[Silhouette]

Yes and the Law (capital L) that dominates Romans 13 is Romans 1 & Jude 1.

 

[Syriusly]

Yes and the Law (capital L) that dominates Romans 13 is Romans 1 & Jude 1.

Funny- doesn't say that anywhere in Romans 13

Romans 13New Century Version (NCV)
Christians Should Obey the Law
13 All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God.
2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3 Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you.
4 The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

 

[Silhouette]

Romans 13 loses in the race with Romans 1 & Jude 3. Sorry. If there's a conflict, God's Law wins over men's laws.

 

[Syriusly]

Romans 13 loses in the race with Romans 1 & Jude 3. Sorry. If there's a conflict, God's Law wins over men's laws.

Funny- still doesn't say that anywhere in Romans 13

Romans 13New Century Version (NCV)
Christians Should Obey the Law
13 All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God.
2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3 Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you.
4 The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

 

[Silhouette]

Yes...if you do wrong. So now there's a conflict between Romans 1 & Jude 1 & a Romans 13. What do you suppose God considers wrong in this conflict? Disobeying men's laws which are in direct defiance of His laws? Or defying His laws which are always dominant in a conflict between the two?

I think I'll choose His laws in such a blatant & direct conflict. Ergo, Jude 1 & Romans 1 beat out Romans 13 on the question of promoting homosexuality in a culture using the potent social icon of marriage.

 

[Silhouette]

Here's the thing about bullshit religious freedom arguments; they're self-contradicting. The entire reason they worship God and Jesus is because God forgives your sins that Jesus died for. But if a Christian is claiming that it violates their religious beliefs to bake a gay cake, then that means the God they worship doesn't forgive and Jesus died for nothing. I thought God was supposed to forgive all Christians if they accept Jesus in their heart. So, what, God's forgiveness extends to child molestation but not baking a cake?

Jesus preached forgiveness for other people's sins. But you have to be intelligent enough to understand that forgiveness doesn't mean promotion of the sin. God draws a clear line in the sand when it comes to normalizing sins in a culture. And these lines are clearly seen in Romans 1 & Jude 1. If you run across an individual gay person, according to the faith, your attitude is one of reaching out and forgiveness. BUT you must in no way shape or form "join them in the sin" by aiding or abetting the sinful behavior to permeate God's culture.

I know you understand this. At least I hope you do; otherwise your IQ is probably a little low.

If it helps, I'll draw a bucolic analogy. If your friend gets behind the wheel and drives drunk down your neighborhood street while children are out playing, even if he kills a child in the process (that horrible), you are to strive to forgive him. However, if you are having him over at a party at your house and you know he has a drinking problem, you don't serve him tons of booze and then happily hand him his car keys as he staggers out the door. THAT is forbidden behavior. It would be worse still if you fought for laws backing down on severity of penalties for drunk drivers who kill. See? Love the sinner, hate the sin.

As to child molestation/forgiveness. Same thing. Horrible thing but forgiveness has to be cultivated WHILE THE PERP is restrained from children forever. He is treated for his mental illness and restrained and checked on regularly for adherence to probation conditions or time in jail. What would be FORBIDDEN is to be a card carrying member of NAMBLA or donating to their cause. THAT is "loving the sin".

Requiring Christians to bake a cake for a "gay wedding" is requiring them to love the sin by participating in its promotion using the acme social icon of marriage as a vehicle. That is simply not allowed at all for a Christian to do.

 

[Syriusly]

Yes...if you do wrong. So now there's a conflict between Romans 1 & Jude 1 & a Romans 13. .

There can't be a conflict. Romans 13 is very specific- and doesn't say "except for Jude 1"- Romans 13 explicitly instructs Christians to follow the law- because the authorities themselves are acting as God's representatives. So disobeying the law is disobeying God's law.

 

[Syriusly]

[Q
Requiring Christians to bake a cake for a "gay wedding" is requiring them to love the sin by participating in its promotion using the acme social icon of marriage as a vehicle. That is simply not allowed at all for a Christian to do.

Christians are told to obey the law- disobeying it is not allowed at all for Christians

Romans 13New Century Version (NCV)
Christians Should Obey the Law
13 All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God.
2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3 Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you.
4 The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

 

[Silhouette]

^^ You seem a bit stupid or incapable of reading, so I'll repost my points:

...
there's a conflict between Romans 1 & Jude 1 & a Romans 13. What do you suppose God considers wrong in this conflict? Disobeying men's laws which are in direct defiance of His laws? Or defying His laws which are always dominant in a conflict between the two?

I think I'll choose His laws in such a blatant & direct conflict. Ergo, Jude 1 & Romans 1 beat out Romans 13 on the question of promoting homosexuality in a culture using the potent social icon of marriage.

 

[Syriusly]

^^ You seem a bit stupid or incapable of reading, so I'll repost my points:.

You do that- I will remind you of the explicit language of Romans 13

If a Christian breaks the law- disobeys authority- then that Christian is disobeying God.

Romans 13New Century Version (NCV)
Christians Should Obey the Law
13 All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God.
2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3 Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you.
4 The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

 

[Silhouette]

So if men make laws that it's ok to blaspheme God then Christians are to ignore Gods warnings on that & follow men's law?

Logic wasn't your strong suit in school I'm guessing?

 

[Silhouette]

I understand you've been named the 64th gender. Good stuff.

Yes because in the beginning, God created 64 genders.

 

[Syriusly]

So if men make laws that it's ok to blaspheme God then Christians are to ignore Gods warnings on that & follow men's law?

I think Christians should follow what the Bible says- not what you say

Romans 13New Century Version (NCV)
Christians Should Obey the Law
13 All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God. 2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3 Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you. 4 The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.