Jerry Brown closing 70 state parks in Ca.

[Wry Catcher]

"Closing" is a political term. Does the governor think the state parks can be locked up and preserved? Jerry is abandoning 70 structures and state parks to criminals and junkies. The dirty little secret is that local sheriff's depts will be extended beyond their ability to protect citizens and property within the parks and the situation will snowball until local municipalities cannot support the tax burdon.

No shit sherlock. I was a manager in a California law enforcement agency and understand very well how the state raided our revenue. Ever since prop. 13 California has had a revenue problem. In his first term Jerry Brown got rid of the Governors Mansion and drove a Plymouth (and not a new one). He was fiscally responsible; the next several Governors were not, and that included 22 years of Republican Governors and 5 years of one Democratic Governor - who got recalled. Remember, the governor of CA has the line item veto.

True enough Wry. I'd be making a hell of a lot more money if I had a solution to Ca.'s financial problems. I don't. I'm making a point that Ca is in such trouble that it is abandoning responsibility for the property (and people) it has protected without offering an alternative just by drawing a line through the system.

So you must also understand that the TP and Eric Cantor are abandoning responsibility for the entire infrastructue of our nation.

(Sorry for the delay, I drove from Sun Valley, ID to San Francisco today. A long haul and, btw, I saw a bunch of repairs of highways in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada and California over the past week and a half, funded by the Stimulus Funding).

 

[rdean]

If the parks are closed they should be madee to where no one can easially get in there.
dig big ditches in the roads and such.

Good for letting fires die out. If there are no roads, the people are safe.

You don't understand much about anything do you? Fires will turn into firestorms and then they will die out after every living thing is dead and vaporised.

Oh no, you ruined it. Republicans thought I was on to something.

 

[wirebender]

You don't understand much about anything do you? Fires will turn into firestorms and then they will die out after every living thing is dead and vaporised.

And think of what great graveyards they will become. Thousands of untended acres in which to hide kidnap victims, victims of domestic violence, victims of child abuse, etc. Helll, places like that would even be attractive to killers from out of state.

 

[westwall]

You don't understand much about anything do you? Fires will turn into firestorms and then they will die out after every living thing is dead and vaporised.

And think of what great graveyards they will become. Thousands of untended acres in which to hide kidnap victims, victims of domestic violence, victims of child abuse, etc. Helll, places like that would even be attractive to killers from out of state.

Mexican drug cartels are allready using Natl. Parks for drug farms and meth labs. It's been happening for over a decade that I know of.

 

[Wry Catcher]

No it ain't. It's where it is because they voted to constrict the ability of government to raise revenue and did stupid things like the "three strikes" law.

Prison is a service. Has to be paid for. You can't put someone away for life and not expect expense.

The citizens of California voted to constrict the ability of government to raise taxes because their representatives were spending them into the poor house. The State legislature is controlled by Democrats however and they have continued to pile on more and more spending despite having their ability to raise taxes "constricted".

add to that that cali had a real balanced budget in what was it 91? the rest is history.

You're a lying partisan. California budgets, state, local, special districts have been in trouble since the passage of prop 13 in 1978. They are "balanced" only because they must be by law. However, the state under Republican Governors raided local revenue, creating huge problems for cities, counties and special districts while State Budgets kicked the can down the road through slick tricks.,

The New Right - of which you seem to have membership - under Boehner and Cantor plan on doing to the nation what the Republican conservatives managed to do in California. Yes, Republicans have been a minority in the Assembly and the Senate here in California, but by demagoguery and rules have been able to thwart actual reform.

California imposed some rather contradictory changes in the legislative process in November 2010, and now the budgetory issue is more complicated. Only time will tell what the outcome will be and only one thing is for sure: The electorite is pissed off at all elected officials and most feel that none of those now serving in The Congress have earned reeleciton.

What Brown has done is played the cards dealt. He has not kicked the problem down the road; he has made the cuts necessary to actually balance the budget and in doing so demonstrated to the nation the ultimate fate of our nation is the far right has its way.

 

[westwall]

The citizens of California voted to constrict the ability of government to raise taxes because their representatives were spending them into the poor house. The State legislature is controlled by Democrats however and they have continued to pile on more and more spending despite having their ability to raise taxes "constricted".

add to that that cali had a real balanced budget in what was it 91? the rest is history.

You're a lying partisan. California budgets, state, local, special districts have been in trouble since the passage of prop 13 in 1978. They are "balanced" only because they must be by law. However, the state under Republican Governors raided local revenue, creating huge problems for cities, counties and special districts while State Budgets kicked the can down the road through slick tricks.,

The New Right - of which you seem to have membership - under Boehner and Cantor plan on doing to the nation what the Republican conservatives managed to do in California. Yes, Republicans have been a minority in the Assembly and the Senate here in California, but by demagoguery and rules have been able to thwart actual reform.

California imposed some rather contradictory changes in the legislative process in November 2010, and now the budgetory issue is more complicated. Only time will tell what the outcome will be and only one thing is for sure: The electorite is pissed off at all elected officials and most feel that none of those now serving in The Congress have earned reeleciton.

What Brown has done is played the cards dealt. He has not kicked the problem down the road; he has made the cuts necessary to actually balance the budget and in doing so demonstrated to the nation the ultimate fate of our nation is the far right has its way.

Ummmm, no he isn't. On the other hand when Jerry Brown signed the law into effect that allowed State employees to collectively bargain....now you're talking the end of the great state of California. The budget began to baloon out of control very soon after that and the pols no longer had the ability to tax old people out of their homes anymore. So sad for the leeches of the state.

 

[Wry Catcher]

add to that that cali had a real balanced budget in what was it 91? the rest is history.

You're a lying partisan. California budgets, state, local, special districts have been in trouble since the passage of prop 13 in 1978. They are "balanced" only because they must be by law. However, the state under Republican Governors raided local revenue, creating huge problems for cities, counties and special districts while State Budgets kicked the can down the road through slick tricks.,

The New Right - of which you seem to have membership - under Boehner and Cantor plan on doing to the nation what the Republican conservatives managed to do in California. Yes, Republicans have been a minority in the Assembly and the Senate here in California, but by demagoguery and rules have been able to thwart actual reform.

California imposed some rather contradictory changes in the legislative process in November 2010, and now the budgetory issue is more complicated. Only time will tell what the outcome will be and only one thing is for sure: The electorite is pissed off at all elected officials and most feel that none of those now serving in The Congress have earned reeleciton.

What Brown has done is played the cards dealt. He has not kicked the problem down the road; he has made the cuts necessary to actually balance the budget and in doing so demonstrated to the nation the ultimate fate of our nation is the far right has its way.

Ummmm, no he isn't. On the other hand when Jerry Brown signed the law into effect that allowed State employees to collectively bargain....now you're talking the end of the great state of California. The budget began to baloon out of control very soon after that and the pols no longer had the ability to tax old people out of their homes anymore. So sad for the leeches of the state.

Why shouldn't public employees be allowed to bargin collectively?

Prop 13 did mitigate the fact that older, retired people, were being taxes out of their homes. However, tax relief under prop 13 allowed for Union Pacific, Bank of America and other large land owners to avoid tax increases on property they owned forever. You see, these large land owners do not turn over property, homeowners do.

The effect being I pay less property tax than does my son who purchased his home 30 years after my wife and I purchased ours, and our home is worth three times the value of his. When property turns over it is assessed on the new sales price. My homes is assessed at what I paid for it in 1980; my sons is assessed on it's sales price in 2009.

 

[westwall]

You're a lying partisan. California budgets, state, local, special districts have been in trouble since the passage of prop 13 in 1978. They are "balanced" only because they must be by law. However, the state under Republican Governors raided local revenue, creating huge problems for cities, counties and special districts while State Budgets kicked the can down the road through slick tricks.,

The New Right - of which you seem to have membership - under Boehner and Cantor plan on doing to the nation what the Republican conservatives managed to do in California. Yes, Republicans have been a minority in the Assembly and the Senate here in California, but by demagoguery and rules have been able to thwart actual reform.

California imposed some rather contradictory changes in the legislative process in November 2010, and now the budgetory issue is more complicated. Only time will tell what the outcome will be and only one thing is for sure: The electorite is pissed off at all elected officials and most feel that none of those now serving in The Congress have earned reeleciton.

What Brown has done is played the cards dealt. He has not kicked the problem down the road; he has made the cuts necessary to actually balance the budget and in doing so demonstrated to the nation the ultimate fate of our nation is the far right has its way.

Ummmm, no he isn't. On the other hand when Jerry Brown signed the law into effect that allowed State employees to collectively bargain....now you're talking the end of the great state of California. The budget began to baloon out of control very soon after that and the pols no longer had the ability to tax old people out of their homes anymore. So sad for the leeches of the state.

Why shouldn't public employees be allowed to bargin collectively?

Prop 13 did mitigate the fact that older, retired people, were being taxes out of their homes. However, tax relief under prop 13 allowed for Union Pacific, Bank of America and other large land owners to avoid tax increases on property they owned forever. You see, these large land owners do not turn over property, homeowners do.

The effect being I pay less property tax than does my son who purchased his home 30 years after my wife and I purchased ours, and our home is worth three times the value of his. When property turns over it is assessed on the new sales price. My homes is assessed at what I paid for it in 1980; my sons is assessed on it's sales price in 2009.

Because even FDR could see the landmine that it has turned out to be. Collective bargaining leads to the corruption of the voting process. Unions buy the politicians that promise to give them the most. I wouldn't expect you to understand that. As far as the property taxes go why do you think I got the hell out of California? I am taxed half as much for 8 times the property here in Nevada, and I don't have to deal with obnoxious, petty tyrant, bureaucrats.

 

[whitehall]

Jerry Brown might be operating with a diminished number of brain cells but you don't need a degree in political science to understand that what the short term savings by abandoning 70 state parks to junkies, arsonists and pot growers will cost more in the long run in tourist dollars and police patrols. California is a mess and the last thing the state, formerly known as the golden state, needs is a pot head left wing greenie as governor.

 

[whitehall]

Jerry Brown might be operating with a diminished number of brain cells but you don't need a degree in political science to understand that what the short term savings by abandoning 70 state parks to junkies, arsonists and pot growers will cost more in the long run in tourist dollars and police patrols. California is a mess and the last thing the state, formerly known as the golden state, needs is a pot head left wing greenie as governor.

 

[whitehall]

Jerry Brown might be operating with a diminished number of brain cells but you don't need a degree in political science to understand that what the short term savings by abandoning 70 state parks to junkies, arsonists and pot growers will cost more in the long run in tourist dollars and police patrols. California is a mess and the last thing the state, formerly known as the golden state, needs is a pot head left wing greenie as governor.

 

[whitehall]

Jerry Brown might be operating with a diminished number of brain cells but you don't need a degree in political science to understand that what the short term savings by abandoning 70 state parks to junkies, arsonists and pot growers will cost more in the long run in tourist dollars and police patrols. California is a mess and the last thing the state, formerly known as the golden state, needs is a pot head left wing greenie as governor.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Jerry Brown might be operating with a diminished number of brain cells but you don't need a degree in political science to understand that what the short term savings by abandoning 70 state parks to junkies, arsonists and pot growers will cost more in the long run in tourist dollars and police patrols. California is a mess and the last thing the state, formerly known as the golden state, needs is a pot head left wing greenie as governor.

You're a fool, the more you post, the more foolish you become.

 

[flacaltenn]

WryCatcher:

I consolidated your comments about Prop 13 from a couple of posts here..

You're a lying partisan. California budgets, state, local, special districts have been in trouble since the passage of prop 13 in 1978. They are "balanced" only because they must be by law. However, the state under Republican Governors raided local revenue, creating huge problems for cities, counties and special districts while State Budgets kicked the can down the road through slick tricks.,

Shades of the "Bush's fault" argument. 40 years after Prop 13 -- it's still Prop 13 to blame for all of California's fiscal crisis..

Proposition 13: Love it or Hate it, its Roots Go Deep

Acquisition-value assessments provide substantially greater
predictability and certainty of revenue flow to local agencies,
with property tax revenues growing at a steadier clip than any
other revenue source. Since the adoption of Proposition 13,
property tax revenues have grown at a rate averaging
approximately 10 percent compounded annually from 1980-81 through
1991-92 (See Table 2).

High volatility in tax systems leads to a lack of predictability
and certainty of revenue for governmental agencies for planning,
budgeting and management purposes. A Cal-Tax study based on
reports published by the Board of Equalization shows that
property tax revenue under the pre-Proposition 13 market-value
tax system was 2.9 times more volatile than the acquisition-value
tax system under Proposition 13. By comparison, the California
income tax system is 5.8 times more volatile (See Figure 1).

Property Tax Levies
(Dollars in thousands)
Table 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------

---------------

(FiscalYear) (Property Tax Levies) (PercentGrowth)

1980-81 $6,360,276 ---
1981-82 7,185,005 13.0%
1982-83 8,007,037 11.4%
1983-84 8,634,771 7.8%
1984-85 9,437,483 9.3%
1985-86 10,274,050 8.9%
1986-87 11,125,581 8.3%
1987-88 12,203,844 9.7%
1988-89 13,307,539 9.0%
1989-90 14,720,218 10.6%
1990-91 16,398,256 11.4%
1991-92 17,687,106 7.9%

-----------------------------------------------------------------

---------------

Average Annual Growth 9.8%

-----------------------------------------------------------------

---------------

Source: Board of Equalization,
Annual Reports.

There WAS an initial to hit prop tax revenues from 1979 -- 1980 because the assessors were screwing so badly with valuations. But less than 2 yrs after passage, the prop tax revenues went UP and considerably so...

Has Prop. 13 Really Robbed California of Property-Tax Revenue? - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

The oldest property tax stats I could find were for 1980-81, from
caltax.org. That year, property tax revenue was $6.36 billion.
So since shortly after Prop. 13's adoption, property tax revenue
increased by 579 percent. That is not a typo. It went up 579
percent.

During the same span, population went from 24 million to 38
milion -- an increase of 58 percent.
As for inflation, as of January 1981, the rough midpoint of the
1980-81 fiscal year, the Consumer Price Index -- which gauges
inflation -- was 88. As of January 2007, it was 202.4. That is a
133 percent increase.

So property tax revenue has increased by more than triple the
combined rate of inflation and population growth -- 579 percent
versus 191 percent. [...]

n 1980-1981, the total of all general and special fund revenue
for the state of California was $22.1 billion. For 2006-07, it
was $120.7 billion. [...] That is an increase of 555 percent.

You follow? PROPERTY TAX REVENUE WENT UP FASTER THAN OTHER
SOURCES OF REVENUE!

WryCatcher::

Prop 13 did mitigate the fact that older, retired people, were being taxes out of their homes. However, tax relief under prop 13 allowed for Union Pacific, Bank of America and other large land owners to avoid tax increases on property they owned forever. You see, these large land owners do not turn over property, homeowners do.

YES -- there is a serious loophole here that needs to get fixed. But it's not because commercial doesn't "turn over". It's because of the way the law "defines" a turnover (Single entity controlling more than a 50% interest). The REASON this hasn't been fixed is that everytime it's written into legislation, they try to embed OTHER Prop 13 "weakeners" and hide them in the bill or initiative. If it was written as a straight SINGLE ISSUE bill -- it would probably pass.

WryCatcher:

The effect being I pay less property tax than does my son who purchased his home 30 years after my wife and I purchased ours, and our home is worth three times the value of his. When property turns over it is assessed on the new sales price. My homes is assessed at what I paid for it in 1980; my sons is assessed on it's sales price in 2009.

Yeah, I didn't like it either everytime I moved in California. But the fact is that this disparity in assessment did NOTHING to slow the real estate boom from 1980 -- 2000 in California. And it did allow folks to better assess their ability to afford to move up. Nothing like "tax certainty" to boost a healthy market is there?

 

[Wry Catcher]

WryCatcher:

I consolidated your comments about Prop 13 from a couple of posts here..

You're a lying partisan. California budgets, state, local, special districts have been in trouble since the passage of prop 13 in 1978. They are "balanced" only because they must be by law. However, the state under Republican Governors raided local revenue, creating huge problems for cities, counties and special districts while State Budgets kicked the can down the road through slick tricks.,

Shades of the "Bush's fault" argument. 40 years after Prop 13 -- it's still Prop 13 to blame for all of California's fiscal crisis..

Proposition 13: Love it or Hate it, its Roots Go Deep

Acquisition-value assessments provide substantially greater
predictability and certainty of revenue flow to local agencies,
with property tax revenues growing at a steadier clip than any
other revenue source. Since the adoption of Proposition 13,
property tax revenues have grown at a rate averaging
approximately 10 percent compounded annually from 1980-81 through
1991-92 (See Table 2).

High volatility in tax systems leads to a lack of predictability
and certainty of revenue for governmental agencies for planning,
budgeting and management purposes. A Cal-Tax study based on
reports published by the Board of Equalization shows that
property tax revenue under the pre-Proposition 13 market-value
tax system was 2.9 times more volatile than the acquisition-value
tax system under Proposition 13. By comparison, the California
income tax system is 5.8 times more volatile (See Figure 1).

Property Tax Levies
(Dollars in thousands)
Table 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------

---------------

(FiscalYear) (Property Tax Levies) (PercentGrowth)

1980-81 $6,360,276 ---
1981-82 7,185,005 13.0%
1982-83 8,007,037 11.4%
1983-84 8,634,771 7.8%
1984-85 9,437,483 9.3%
1985-86 10,274,050 8.9%
1986-87 11,125,581 8.3%
1987-88 12,203,844 9.7%
1988-89 13,307,539 9.0%
1989-90 14,720,218 10.6%
1990-91 16,398,256 11.4%
1991-92 17,687,106 7.9%

-----------------------------------------------------------------

---------------

Average Annual Growth 9.8%

-----------------------------------------------------------------

---------------

Source: Board of Equalization,
Annual Reports.

There WAS an initial to hit prop tax revenues from 1979 -- 1980 because the assessors were screwing so badly with valuations. But less than 2 yrs after passage, the prop tax revenues went UP and considerably so...



WryCatcher::

Prop 13 did mitigate the fact that older, retired people, were being taxes out of their homes. However, tax relief under prop 13 allowed for Union Pacific, Bank of America and other large land owners to avoid tax increases on property they owned forever. You see, these large land owners do not turn over property, homeowners do.

YES -- there is a serious loophole here that needs to get fixed. But it's not because commercial doesn't "turn over". It's because of the way the law "defines" a turnover (Single entity controlling more than a 50% interest). The REASON this hasn't been fixed is that everytime it's written into legislation, they try to embed OTHER Prop 13 "weakeners" and hide them in the bill or initiative. If it was written as a straight SINGLE ISSUE bill -- it would probably pass.

WryCatcher:

The effect being I pay less property tax than does my son who purchased his home 30 years after my wife and I purchased ours, and our home is worth three times the value of his. When property turns over it is assessed on the new sales price. My homes is assessed at what I paid for it in 1980; my sons is assessed on it's sales price in 2009.

Yeah, I didn't like it either everytime I moved in California. But the fact is that this disparity in assessment did NOTHING to slow the real estate boom from 1980 -- 2000 in California. And it did allow folks to better assess their ability to afford to move up. Nothing like "tax certainty" to boost a healthy market is there?

My gut reaction is to question statistical arguments, which I will do overtime. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this comprehensive counterpoint to mine.

This is labor day weekend, and we are having people over tonight as well as on Sunday. The Honey Do's have piled up since we were on a road trip the past two weeks, so I will copy and paste your response onto word pad and give it the proper review asap. Right now the boss is barking orders, and I know better than to not respond.

Have a good holiday weekend.

 

[flacaltenn]

Wow - WryCatcher is an actual person with real life issues....

Hey - Enjoy.. Don't worry bout me.. I've got my own list of Honey-Dos..

 

[MeBelle]

Brown is reigning in WHAT?

He is still a hack for the Unions. CalPers is corrupt.

Brown orders DMV to withhold processing of vehicles until the beginning of FY 11/12 and
only does so to bloat budget revenues. Brown assumed the temp sales tax, due to expire in June would be automatically extended. Yaaa, a budget was finally passed, ONLY because Brown is a Dem. But he still failed. Triangle budget balancing, cutting spending from one side of the triangle,starting at the top is a successful model and should be used.

Brown veto's card check for UFW two months ago, yet TODAY he is being 'flexible' regarding 'protection' for farm workers. Brown's about face is being lauded by Unions. When a Union approves and endorses anything, a reasonable person knows that whatever is being endorsed is for the benefit of the Union, not the employee. Unions throw their own under the bus all the time. UFW workers want wage increases. Sorry, but picking fruit and veggies is not a career path that should be chose for life.

I am sick to death of hearing that Prop 13 is the reason behind EVERY budget revenue shortfall, whether it is state, county or city.
Government clearly did NOT hear the REAL mandate: Live within your means, not freaking throw people under the bus in order to 'balance a budget'.
Medicare was cut. Many think, 'so what'? But if someone has paid into Medicare their entire working life only to get it chopped, that's BS. Hospitals are claiming to abide by 'best outcomes/practices' but end up discharging patients to LTC's, only to have these patients return to the hospital's ER because the patient was not ready for discharge. I will let Mercy off the hook on this issue.

This post is barely touching the tip of the problem. I could write a thesis on the financial boondoggle that has made California the laughing stock of our Country!

I'll come back when I cool off and we can chat about how many jobs CA has driven off since JB became Gov.
CA is over regulated and budget spending bloated because of agencies that overlap each other, yet perform the same types of services.

Brown is not the Moonbeam he once was, nor does he date actresses anymore.
I DO have good things to say about him, but not right this moment.

Chiang for Gov in 2014!!

<steps off soapbox...for now>
Thanks for reading!!

 

[flacaltenn]

So MeBelle:

.. things haven't gotten better since FlaCalTenn left in '05? I thought if all of us damn economic conservatives just left -- that the brilliant and capable lefties would have turned things around.

Don't cool off -- start googling a new state!!! Piece of mind is priceless.....

 

[Wry Catcher]

Wow - WryCatcher is an actual person with real life issues....

Hey - Enjoy.. Don't worry bout me.. I've got my own list of Honey-Dos..

For the record, the Pork Chops were a hit (someone had suggested adding finely ground coffee to the rub. I took a risk and did so and it produced a great crust when I seared the chops on the grill). Some dipped the chops in a little BBQ sauce served on the side, I tried the sauce with several bites and it really worked.

Anyway, back to the fray. My understanding of the economic troubles facing California cannot be blamed on one political party or one ideology. Democrats generally favor an activitst government providing an array services to the citizens. Such an ideology is costly yet creates jobs in both the private and public sectors.

Republicans too engaged in similar job building. Rather than provide services, for example, they pushed legislation limiting a judges sentencing discretion and sending more offenders - both juvenile and adult - to prison.

(Don't misunderstand, I'm retire LE and know first hand that some offenders need to be caged for long long times. But most offenders don't, and the three strikes laws, determinent sentencing, and prison sentences for alcohol and other drug crimes has created overcrowding leading to an out of control gang problem and huge costs)

California's problems are systemic and exacerbated by ideology on both sides of the aisle; doing the same thing for decades was insane and we can see the results today.

During my career we saw more famine than feast on the local level. Preventative services were replaced by more and more punitive 'solutions' which clearly have not worked. Jails are overcrowded and soon will begin to recieve more state prison inmates as the state cuts its budget; CA sheriffs and Chief Probation Officers as well as city & town police agency's are faced with receiving an influx of persons released from the prisons, including sex offenders and violent offenders as well as Alcohol and Drug offenders entering local institutions and hitting the streets with few resources and very little hope of securing employment in today's economy.

Pointing fingers ain't productive, it's time for emotion and ideology to be put aside.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

http://media.scpr.org/documents/2011/05/13/2011ParkClosures_attachments20110513.pdf


This is what you get when you hate government so much you would rather the wealthy get tax cuts than pay your bills

Wow.

Thank you for that stunning insight