It's Official: Life begins at conception

[Missourian]

...I can't believe you actually posted that...


Your concession is duly noted.

There is no concession. You seem to have misread what I said. I was saying that is without even looking at what science has to say, which is different from Christianity.

Really? When does science say life begins, and please show your work?

Exactly.

This thread has veered away from the OP.

No one has mounted an argument that the language of the Missouri law is anything but consistent with the modern scientific understanding of human biology.

 

[Foxfyre]

Just to set the record straight, there were no Christians in the Old Testament and I am unaware of any New Testament reference as to when life begins. The few Christian denominations that have written that into their doctrine do not speak for the whole.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Just to set the record straight, there were no Christians in the Old Testament and I am unaware of any New Testament reference as to when life begins. The few Christian denominations that have written that into their doctrine do not speak for the whole.

Just to set the record straight, Christians aren't the only ones who think life begins at conception, and it doesn't require any sort of religious affiliation to believe it, or to believe that babies shouldn't be killed in job lots.

 

[Luissa]

Actually, any time you qualify for Medicaid or cash assistance, you automatically get the food stamps thrown in, at least in my state.

Not in mine! There are different requirements for each program. I received medicaid while pregnant, but did not qualify for food stamps. My friend right now is the same. The State is picking up what her insurance will not pay, but she cannot get food stamps.
You are right I am sure about cash and food, that just makes sense. I of course got WIC while pregnant, because the income cut off is higher.

The income cut-off for cash assistance is incredibly low, so that if you qualify for it, you're pretty much guaranteed to be poor enough to qualify for ANYTHING.

One of the benefits of welfare reform was that it gave states greater leeway to streamline their administration of the programs and coordinate them better. Mine chooses to essentially include some amount of food stamps with either of the other two programs, figuring that if you're poor enough for Medicaid, you could probably use some better nutrition in your life, as well. And pregnancy, well . . . you definitely need better nutrition (not, you understand, that they expect poor people to know how to eat nutritiously).

Our state medical program used to cover a larger group. So pretty much if you were single and pregnant you would be covered. If I had lived in another state, I probably wouldn't have got medical. I should have had medical from my work, but of course there was loop holes.
I agree 100% with the WIC program, for one they don't just provide you with a few food items they also offer classes. Right before I had my son, I took a breast feeding class through them, and if you have problems with breast feeding they set you up with a program that will send a nurse out to help.
And when my son couldn't breast feed anymore, they give you coupons for formula, they don't provide all you need, but it enough to help. No way with diapers, day care, and everything else could I have afforded to buy all the formula I needed.
Of course I am just some liberal taking advantage of the system.

 

[Foxfyre]

Just to set the record straight, there were no Christians in the Old Testament and I am unaware of any New Testament reference as to when life begins. The few Christian denominations that have written that into their doctrine do not speak for the whole.

Just to set the record straight, Christians aren't the only ones who think life begins at conception, and it doesn't require any sort of religious affiliation to believe it, or to believe that babies shouldn't be killed in job lots.

Hey I've been arguing all along that life begins at conception. I am staunchly pro life. And because science cannot identify a precise moment that a person becomes a person, we have to conclude that the egg and sperm, once joined, contain all the components of a living human being--bone, muscle, tissue, blood, hair, teeth, eyes, brain--it's all there. It's all a matter of what stage of development that human being is.

All I'm saying is that you can't use the Bible or Christian teachings from more than a few groups to determine when it is and when it isn't okay to terminate that human life.

So we have to use our intellect and conviction as to what human life is in order to agree on a legal policy about that.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Life begins at conception. Because it if isn't a life that's growing in the womb, then what is it?

"I am not a philosopher or theologian but a student of medicine and surgery. I can speak to you with authority that from a pure, unadulterated biological and embryological standpoint, there is no greater pivotal moment in our growth and development than when 23 chromosomes from our father join with 23 chromosomes from our mother to form a unique, new biologic entity who heretofore simply had not existed."

Fritz Baumgartner, MD

 

[Gunny]

At least that's what has been written into law in Missouri.

It's a question that has perplexed philosophers, theologians and scientists for thousands of years.
Pythagorean Greeks, early Christian church fathers, Talmudic rabbis, Sunni and Shia thinkers, Hindu brahmin and modern bioethicists have grappled with the fundamental, ultimately unknowable, mystery: At what point in our biological development are we infused with a soul? At what point do we become human?

On May 14, the final day of their legislative session, Missouri lawmakers declared the answer, and last month, by withholding his veto, Gov. Jay Nixon signaled that he agreed. On Aug. 28, their answer will become the law of the land.

"The life of each human being begins at conception," according to Senate Bill 793, which will add new regulations to the state's 24-hour informed consent law for abortions.

"Abortion will terminate the life of a separate, unique, living human being."
Those words will be displayed "prominently" on brochures that abortion providers will be required to hand out to every woman seeking the procedure — even if they don't happen to believe the Christian theology the words represent.

New Mo. abortion law counters some philosophy, theology

Not hard to figure out. Of course it begins at inception. Biological fact.

 

[edthecynic]

At least that's what has been written into law in Missouri.
New Mo. abortion law counters some philosophy, theology

Actually the bible is quite clear as to when mankind becomes a living soul. Obviously nobody believes the bible no matter what they might say to the contrary!

Gen 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Considering Adam was not conceived or born of woman, according to the story of creation.... your point is ridiculous

Actually it is not so ridiculous if you understand some other very basic and essential principles of Christianity.

In Christianity, Adam is the archetype of mankind which means he represents all of mankind. The whole principle of "Original Sin" depends on Adam representing all of mankind. If Adam was not the archetype of mankind then mankind would not have fallen with his disobedience and there would be no need for a redeemer. No one would be born in sin. We would all be born sinless and pure like Mary.

So like it or not, Adam IS mankind, and therefore mankind becomes a living soul the same way Adam became a living soul.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Actually the bible is quite clear as to when mankind becomes a living soul. Obviously nobody believes the bible no matter what they might say to the contrary!

Gen 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Considering Adam was not conceived or born of woman, according to the story of creation.... your point is ridiculous

Actually it is not so ridiculous if you understand some other very basic and essential principles of Christianity.

In Christianity, Adam is the archetype of mankind which means he represents all of mankind. The whole principle of "Original Sin" depends on Adam representing all of mankind. If Adam was not the archetype of mankind then mankind would not have fallen with his disobedience and there would be no need for a redeemer. No one would be born in sin. We would all be born sinless and pure like Mary.

So like it or not, Adam IS mankind, and therefore mankind becomes a living soul the same way Adam became a living soul.

Really? So God molded you out of dirt and gave you mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?

 

[edthecynic]

Considering Adam was not conceived or born of woman, according to the story of creation.... your point is ridiculous

Actually it is not so ridiculous if you understand some other very basic and essential principles of Christianity.

In Christianity, Adam is the archetype of mankind which means he represents all of mankind. The whole principle of "Original Sin" depends on Adam representing all of mankind. If Adam was not the archetype of mankind then mankind would not have fallen with his disobedience and there would be no need for a redeemer. No one would be born in sin. We would all be born sinless and pure like Mary.

So like it or not, Adam IS mankind, and therefore mankind becomes a living soul the same way Adam became a living soul.

Really? So God molded you out of dirt and gave you mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?

Molding Adam out of dirt did NOT make Adam a living soul. The Breath of Life from God did.
Try again.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Actually it is not so ridiculous if you understand some other very basic and essential principles of Christianity.

In Christianity, Adam is the archetype of mankind which means he represents all of mankind. The whole principle of "Original Sin" depends on Adam representing all of mankind. If Adam was not the archetype of mankind then mankind would not have fallen with his disobedience and there would be no need for a redeemer. No one would be born in sin. We would all be born sinless and pure like Mary.

So like it or not, Adam IS mankind, and therefore mankind becomes a living soul the same way Adam became a living soul.

Really? So God molded you out of dirt and gave you mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?

Molding Adam out of dirt did NOT make Adam a living soul. The Breath of Life from God did.
Try again.

No, molding him out of dirt REQUIRED God to give him mouth-to-mouth to make him alive. You want to pretend there's no difference from the first man, who wasn't born of a woman, and everyone who came after, you need to deal with that.

YOU try again.

 

[Paulie]

Also, conception does not MEAN pregnancy, and it takes a couple of days for the woman to become pregnant after the conception for the fertilized egg to attach to the uterus or fallopian tubes with an ectopic pregnancy ...and from what i believe I have read is that more than 50% of fertilized eggs do not make it to the pregnancy stage....so the new human being was already conceived but naturally aborted, so to say? Wonder how that fits in?

If that's what the body does, then so be it.

That is completely different from willfully aborting.

With the abortion issue, people simply look at it as murder. A conceived egg that naturally aborts before reaching the uterus is not murder.

 

[Sky Dancer]

We've learned so much more about the science of conception than we knew when Roe V Wade was decided.

 

[Care4all]

Really? So God molded you out of dirt and gave you mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?

Molding Adam out of dirt did NOT make Adam a living soul. The Breath of Life from God did.
Try again.

No, molding him out of dirt REQUIRED God to give him mouth-to-mouth to make him alive. You want to pretend there's no difference from the first man, who wasn't born of a woman, and everyone who came after, you need to deal with that.

YOU try again.

fyi there is a lot of reading on this from various theologians.... the body, plus the Holy spirit of God breathed in to us, makes us a Living Soul....

the life of the body being formed is still a LIFE, but not necessarily a Living Soul, from what i have just read on it....

Some theologians even say every living creature, is a living soul....I have not finished reading about this yet....

 

[Sky Dancer]

Molding Adam out of dirt did NOT make Adam a living soul. The Breath of Life from God did.
Try again.

No, molding him out of dirt REQUIRED God to give him mouth-to-mouth to make him alive. You want to pretend there's no difference from the first man, who wasn't born of a woman, and everyone who came after, you need to deal with that.

YOU try again.

fyi there is a lot of reading on this from various theologians.... the body, plus the Holy spirit of God breathed in to us, makes us a Living Soul....

the life of the body being formed is still a LIFE, but not necessarily a Living Soul, from what i have just read on it....

Some theologians even say every living creature, is a living soul....I have not finished reading about this yet....

That's an interesting view, Care. It illustrates how different our spiritual views are of conception.

Buddhists believe life begins at conception, that is, that consciousness enters at that time. But consciousness is very primitive at the stage of fertilized egg, embryo, and fetus.

Still life wants to protect itself.

 

[Foxfyre]

Molding Adam out of dirt did NOT make Adam a living soul. The Breath of Life from God did.
Try again.

No, molding him out of dirt REQUIRED God to give him mouth-to-mouth to make him alive. You want to pretend there's no difference from the first man, who wasn't born of a woman, and everyone who came after, you need to deal with that.

YOU try again.

fyi there is a lot of reading on this from various theologians.... the body, plus the Holy spirit of God breathed in to us, makes us a Living Soul....

the life of the body being formed is still a LIFE, but not necessarily a Living Soul, from what i have just read on it....

Some theologians even say every living creature, is a living soul....I have not finished reading about this yet....

For me I don't worry to much about HOW it happens. I just believe that the joining of the egg and sperm at conception creates a human life. I can't see how one part of the division of the cells and progression to zygote, embryo, fetus, a fully formed baby and then further progression to adult, then old age, and finally death of 'natural causes' is more important than any other part so far as it being a human life. It's all part of the life cycle with unalienable rights from God. And for me, it is therefore precious.

 

[Care4all]

No, molding him out of dirt REQUIRED God to give him mouth-to-mouth to make him alive. You want to pretend there's no difference from the first man, who wasn't born of a woman, and everyone who came after, you need to deal with that.

YOU try again.

fyi there is a lot of reading on this from various theologians.... the body, plus the Holy spirit of God breathed in to us, makes us a Living Soul....

the life of the body being formed is still a LIFE, but not necessarily a Living Soul, from what i have just read on it....

Some theologians even say every living creature, is a living soul....I have not finished reading about this yet....

For me I don't worry to much about HOW it happens. I just believe that the joining of the egg and sperm at conception creates a human life. I can't see how one part of the division of the cells and progression to zygote, embryo, fetus, a fully formed baby and then further progression to adult, then old age, and finally death of 'natural causes' is more important than any other part so far as it being a human life. It's all part of the life cycle with unalienable rights from God. And for me, it is therefore precious.

agree! a new human life, begins at conception...conception is the first stage of a new life, human or creature....it is ''the beginning''...

and they(human life vs the soul) are 2 separate things being debated imo

 

[Care4all]

No, molding him out of dirt REQUIRED God to give him mouth-to-mouth to make him alive. You want to pretend there's no difference from the first man, who wasn't born of a woman, and everyone who came after, you need to deal with that.

YOU try again.

fyi there is a lot of reading on this from various theologians.... the body, plus the Holy spirit of God breathed in to us, makes us a Living Soul....

the life of the body being formed is still a LIFE, but not necessarily a Living Soul, from what i have just read on it....

Some theologians even say every living creature, is a living soul....I have not finished reading about this yet....

That's an interesting view, Care. It illustrates how different our spiritual views are of conception.

Buddhists believe life begins at conception, that is, that consciousness enters at that time. But consciousness is very primitive at the stage of fertilized egg, embryo, and fetus.

Still life wants to protect itself.

all i am saying is that various theologians differ with eachother on the subject of the Living Soul.....

I still believe and know, through science, that a new life, begins with conception.

 

[Paulie]

The waters are being muddied by adding the whole "soul" part to it.

That's where a lot of you are losing people.

 

[Foxfyre]

agree! a new human life, begins at conception...conception is the first stage of a new life, human or creature....it is ''the beginning''...

and they(human life vs the soul) are 2 separate things being debated imo

Yes that's on my to do list for the next life. Find out things like whether the soul already exists and, if so, at what point is it assigned to a person? And how is it decided which person will get a specific soul? Or is a new soul created with each conception? Or somewhere along the way of development?

All interesting and matters of curiosity to me. But since we don't know, I choose to respect the sanctity all human life regardless of its stage of development.