It's Official: Life begins at conception

[Foxfyre]

Religious doctrine is a basis for ordinance.
Several ordinanances revolve around churches and their doctrine.
The remenants of the old Blue laws for Sunday closings and no liquer sales.

As I said, religious beliefs or accommodation can drive the social contract resulting in various ordinaces. But religious beliefs cannot be the BASIS for social contract. In other words, city offices close down on Saturday and Sunday because that's when most of the religious folks in town have their Sabbath and it just makes sense to accommodate that since those are the days people will be less likely to need city services. They don't do it because it is the Sabbath Day and God commands us to keep it holy. They do it purely because most of the folks in town are less convenienced on those days because that is their Sabbath.

At least that was the original impetus behind it. And as society evolved, the blue laws looked sillier and sillier and were eventually done away with and weekends on Saturday and Sunday are now more custom than to accommodate the religious.

Social contract is for the comfort and efficiency of the community as a whole and the way that it implements life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What is one town's cup of tea might not be the way the next town chooses to do it at all. And personally, I think that's okay.

 

[Yurt]

I'm sure those who oppose Sharia Law in the Mosque threads will be by soon enough to tell us how a state making laws based on Christian religious beliefs is wrong.

Sorry Rob, this isn't religion, it's biology...you know...science.

the decision in roe v wade was based on when the governmental interest in protecting a pregnancy outweighed the interest of the woman in her OWN BODY.

That equation only changes if one assigns religious values.

what about states that have murder charges for an unborn child?

 

[elvis]

Sorry Rob, this isn't religion, it's biology...you know...science.

the decision in roe v wade was based on when the governmental interest in protecting a pregnancy outweighed the interest of the woman in her OWN BODY.

That equation only changes if one assigns religious values.

what about states that have murder charges for an unborn child?

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

 

[Foxfyre]

the decision in roe v wade was based on when the governmental interest in protecting a pregnancy outweighed the interest of the woman in her OWN BODY.

That equation only changes if one assigns religious values.

what about states that have murder charges for an unborn child?

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

But now really. Do only religious people object to murder? I think not.

Are ONLY religious people pro life or do ONLY religious people think a baby in the womb is a human being? I think not.

California, arguably one of the more liberal states of the union, does have a statute on the books making it a crime to kill the unborn baby. (Unless via abortion of course). The statute almost certainly cites no religious convictions of any kind but recognizes that unborn child as a life.

 

[elvis]

what about states that have murder charges for an unborn child?

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

But now really. Do only religious people object to murder? I think not.

Are ONLY religious people pro life or do ONLY religious people think a baby in the womb is a human being? I think not.

California, arguably one of the more liberal states of the union, does have a statute on the books making it a crime to kill the unborn baby. (Unless via abortion of course). The statute almost certainly cites no religious convictions of any kind but recognizes that unborn child as a life.

I'm on the opposite side from jillian on this issue, but I don't think she advocates murder.

 

[Foxfyre]

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

But now really. Do only religious people object to murder? I think not.

Are ONLY religious people pro life or do ONLY religious people think a baby in the womb is a human being? I think not.

California, arguably one of the more liberal states of the union, does have a statute on the books making it a crime to kill the unborn baby. (Unless via abortion of course). The statute almost certainly cites no religious convictions of any kind but recognizes that unborn child as a life.

I'm on the opposite side from jillian on this issue, but I don't think she advocates murder.

I'm sure she doesn't. I don't even know that the two of you (or me) are on opposite sides on all aspects either. Usually reasonable people are able to work out a compromise that all can live with if they want to.

But it's the unreasonable people--those who want no restrictions of any kind on abortion versus those who want to allow no abortions of any kind for any reason--who seem to drive the debate. That doesn't leave much wiggle room for the huge number of us who are somewhere between those two extremes.

 

[Luissa]

the decision in roe v wade was based on when the governmental interest in protecting a pregnancy outweighed the interest of the woman in her OWN BODY.

That equation only changes if one assigns religious values.

what about states that have murder charges for an unborn child?

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

To be clear, the child was expelled from Lacy's body. I think they call it coffin birth. But you are right, other's have been charged. So in the Peterson case, I believe they made the case he was not unborn. ( My grandmother loves to watch high profile murder cases)

If you want to know anything about the OJ trial, I just have to ask her.

 

[Luissa]

But now really. Do only religious people object to murder? I think not.

Are ONLY religious people pro life or do ONLY religious people think a baby in the womb is a human being? I think not.

California, arguably one of the more liberal states of the union, does have a statute on the books making it a crime to kill the unborn baby. (Unless via abortion of course). The statute almost certainly cites no religious convictions of any kind but recognizes that unborn child as a life.

I'm on the opposite side from jillian on this issue, but I don't think she advocates murder.

I'm sure she doesn't. I don't even know that the two of you (or me) are on opposite sides on all aspects either. Usually reasonable people are able to work out a compromise that all can live with if they want to.

But it's the unreasonable people--those who want no restrictions of any kind on abortion versus those who want to allow no abortions of any kind for any reason--who seem to drive the debate. That doesn't leave much wiggle room for the huge number of us who are somewhere between those two extremes.

I think abortions, unless done for medical reasons, should be cut off at 12 to 16 weeks. If you can't figure it out in that time period, well that is your problem. I think partial birth abortions are terrible, for one you have gone that long, just have the baby and give it up for adoption.

 

[elvis]

what about states that have murder charges for an unborn child?

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

To be clear, the child was expelled from Lacy's body. I think they call it coffin birth. But you are right, other's have been charged. So in the Peterson case, I believe they made the case he was not unborn. ( My grandmother loves to watch high profile murder cases)

If you want to know anything about the OJ trial, I just have to ask her.

interesting about scott. I've heard enough about OJ, but thanks anyway.

 

[Luissa]

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

To be clear, the child was expelled from Lacy's body. I think they call it coffin birth. But you are right, other's have been charged. So in the Peterson case, I believe they made the case he was not unborn. ( My grandmother loves to watch high profile murder cases)

If you want to know anything about the OJ trial, I just have to ask her.

interesting about scott. I've heard enough about OJ, but thanks anyway.

They found the boy and mother at different locations.

Scott Peterson is a vile piece of crap. Who kills their pregnant wife? I never get that stuff, just divorce her.

 

[Luissa]

that's true. Scott Peterson was charged with double murder.

To be clear, the child was expelled from Lacy's body. I think they call it coffin birth. But you are right, other's have been charged. So in the Peterson case, I believe they made the case he was not unborn. ( My grandmother loves to watch high profile murder cases)

If you want to know anything about the OJ trial, I just have to ask her.

interesting about scott. I've heard enough about OJ, but thanks anyway.

The verdict was on my birthday, I am lucky she showed up to the party.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Aristotle believed that a soul could only inhabit a fetus when that fetus began to look human, a timetable he set at 40 days for men and 90 days for women.

I would imagine that, living in ancient Greece, Aristotle believed a lot of garbage about medicine that we have long since known to be untrue. Who among us believes that Aristotle is the cutting edge of medical science today?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Abortion will terminate the life of a separate, unique, living human being.


Then if that is the standard, that from the moment of conception those cells are a "separate life, unique, living human being, Cesarean Section out what ever is there, sit it on the table and see how long it lives.

Why? What's that got to do with anything?

 

[Cecilie1200]

"Birth was the death of him." Samuel Beckett


If one can argue that potential is life then a number of things create ethical questions. Two or three of five conceptions end normally, naturally. Who are these cells? Each month a woman of a certain age (and marital status) contains potential life? Who are these cells? Of the millions of sperm, each one is unique and different. Who are these missing people? And if potentiality is key, is suicide or murder OK as that's where we are headed anyway?


"In the 1950s, about a million illegal abortions a year were performed in the U.S., and over a thousand women died each year as a result. Women who were victims of botched or unsanitary abortions came in desperation to hospital emergency wards, where some died of widespread abdominal infections. Many women who recovered from such infections found themselves sterile or chronically and painfully ill. The enormous emotional stress often lasted a long time."

HISTORY OF ABORTION

Boston Review — Judith Jarvis Thomson


"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." Edward Abbey

Oh, well, if Feminist.com says it, it MUST be true. Of course, it still has nothing to do with the topic, but oh well.

 

[Cecilie1200]

...I can't believe you actually posted that...


Your concession is duly noted.

There is no concession. You seem to have misread what I said. I was saying that is without even looking at what science has to say, which is different from Christianity.

Really? When does science say life begins, and please show your work?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Actually the bible is quite clear as to when mankind becomes a living soul. Obviously nobody believes the bible no matter what they might say to the contrary!

Gen 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So, the soul enters the human body AFTER it is formed, and AFTER it takes its first breath of life, as this passage implies???

A baby get oxygen through the umbilical cord. Thats the same as breathing. The intake of oxygen is the breath of life.

So I guess they are wrong again.

Well, not to mention that trying to compare the way most people are created, via gestation in the womb, to Adam, the ONE man who was molded out of dirt, is a fairly pointless exercise to start with.

 

[Cecilie1200]

so welfare and foodstamps and such begin at conception?

Always have...never heard of W.I.C. ?

WIC Eligibility Requirements

Quite true. Being poor and pregnant automatically qualifies you for Medicaid and food stamps. All you gotta do is produce a positive pregnancy test from an acceptable provider and proof of income.

 

[Kalam]

Aristotle believed that a soul could only inhabit a fetus when that fetus began to look human, a timetable he set at 40 days for men and 90 days for women.

He also thought that heavier objects fell faster. Aristotle didn't always think things out.

 

[Luissa]

so welfare and foodstamps and such begin at conception?

Always have...never heard of W.I.C. ?

WIC Eligibility Requirements

Quite true. Being poor and pregnant automatically qualifies you for Medicaid and food stamps. All you gotta do is produce a positive pregnancy test from an acceptable provider and proof of income.

Actually it can qualify you for medicaid, but not always food stamps. It is easier to get WIC.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Always have...never heard of W.I.C. ?

WIC Eligibility Requirements

Quite true. Being poor and pregnant automatically qualifies you for Medicaid and food stamps. All you gotta do is produce a positive pregnancy test from an acceptable provider and proof of income.

Actually it can qualify you for medicaid, but not always food stamps. It is easier to get WIC.

Actually, any time you qualify for Medicaid or cash assistance, you automatically get the food stamps thrown in, at least in my state.