It’s Constitutional

[OohPooPahDoo]

The Secession Movement is not getting much coverage in the MSM, but it is alive and well. I’ve read a bunch of articles about secession written by knowledgeable people. Most say there is nothing in the Constitution that prevents secession. In addition to informative background Professor Walter E. Williams sums it up nicely:

What stops secession is the prospect of brute force by a mighty federal government, as witnessed by the costly War of 1861. Let’s look at the secession issue.

Secession: It's constitutional
Walter E. Williams offers evidence from 18th and 19th century U.S. history
Published: 9 hours ago
by WALTER WILLIAMS

Secession: It’s constitutional

Here’s an entertaining, and informative video to top off the topic:

Secession: American as apple pie

Its not.

Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Any ordinance of secession without approval from Congress is null and void.

 

[PratchettFan]

IN 1861 REAL secessionists proved that they don't CARE what the constitution says about secession.

How did that work out for them?

To PratchettFan: It will work out better this time because secessionists will be fighting for individual liberties and against totalitarian government. In short: There are no issues like slavery clouding secession. Should the federal government resort to brute force AGAIN the vast majority will become secessionists.

And in case you have not noticed, the federal government in 1861 at least fought to free a group of people; whereas, today the federal government wants to enslave everyone. [/QUOTE]

No. This time around there will be no this time around. There is not going to be any secession because none of the states, not a single one, has any desire to secede. Certainly there are a bunch of people out there who want to secede. There are always a bunch of people out there who want to secede. The only reason this is even in the news is because the Obama administration provided those people a forum to vent their spleens. That is as far as it goes.

As I said before, this is nothing more than the current fad of the fringe. It is going nowhere. Except, of course, as fodder for the various pundits who make their living playing to the fads of the fringe.

 

[emilynghiem]

It is ONLY Constitutional if the Congress allows the State to leave. That was the decision by the Supreme Court.

I believe the best bet for secession is basing it on:
reform of tax laws
reform of federal reserve system
since both have long been challenged on constitutional grounds

If more people can re-organize and structure local church and business networks
to manage themselves and their own programs, they can start limiting how much
they pay to federal govt and pay more directly into local programs and writing that off.

As I posted in other threads, I would push for
* 10% cap on federal taxes, and considering anything above that to be a LOAN to govt
where taxpayers and states start putting conditions and terms on the loans and directing where these loans go, such as choosing which Party policies/programs to support with taxes
* demanding and collecting restitution to taxpayers for cases of govt and corporate fraud
* issuing bonds against such debts and damages owed to taxpayers, in order to finance the reconstruction of jobs economy and infrastructure in affected areas, while holding the wrongdoers who incurred the debts responsible for paying this back instead of charging it to taxpayers

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

It is ONLY Constitutional if the Congress allows the State to leave. That was the decision by the Supreme Court.

I believe the best bet for secession is basing it on:
reform of tax laws
reform of federal reserve system
since both have long been challenged on constitutional grounds

Please name the most recent challenge for each. I'd love to read the arguments.

* 10% cap on federal taxes, and considering anything above that to be a LOAN to govt
where taxpayers and states start putting conditions and terms on the loans and directing where these loans go, such as choosing which Party policies/programs to support with taxes

We do choose which policies to support with taxes you fucking moron. We elect a Congress every 2 years. Fuck you're an idiot.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

This Secessionist movement is not to start a new country, it's to re-establish Constitutional Law.

That's like saying you're divorcing your wife to strengthen your marriage.

You can't seriously be this stupid.

 

[Flanders]

pinqy;6419212

You and mad scientist talk about "the government" as if it were separate from the States and the People. It is not. Congress are representatives of the States, selected by the people of those States. The President is elected by Electors chosen by the People. The Supreme Court is appointed by the President (elected by the People) and confirmed by the Senate (represantatives of the States).

To pingy: The federal government separated itself from the American people a long time ago.

pinqy;6419212

But I do note how you side-stepped actually addressing any of the issues or arguments.

To pingy: It is my thread. That alone means I am not sidestepping the issue of secession. You are not getting the answers you want, but I am addressing them.

pinqy;6419212

I'm sorry, are you claiming that violent revolution should be allowed and those attacked should not defend themselves?

To pingy: I’m claiming that violent revolution may be unavoidable irrespective of the Supreme Court.

pinqy;6419212

And the Constitution explicitly grants Congress the ability to supress insurrection.

To pingy. The British refer to the American REVOLUTION as a REBELLION. Insurrection is a synonym for rebellion. So you are saying the federal government (or just the president?) has the same powers King Charles tried to exercise over the colonies. Interesting line of reasoning.

pinqy;6419212

The government IS the people....the elected representatives thereof.

To pingy: America was a Republic.

AT THE CLOSE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, a woman asked Benjamin Franklin what type of government the Constitution was bringing into existence. Franklin replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.”

A Republic, If You Can Keep It | Libertarian

That Republic evolved into a half-ass democracy . It is now one small step away from becoming a full-blown totalitarian state —— which is why a Secession Movement is necessary.

pinqy;6419212

Or are you unaware of how a Republic works?

To pingy: Before you tell me Republic means elections let me go to Benjamin Franklin one more time:

When the people find they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.

Parenthetically, I will never believe that a majority, even a simple majority, of Americans wanted that piece of garbage in the White House to have a second term.

pinqy;6419212

Leaving the Union is not mentioned at all in the Constitution.

To pingy: Tell that to editec in #7 permalink.

pinqy;6419212

GIVEN that the Union of States was established as PERPETUAL, how on Earth can it be assumed or inferred that it is not actually perpetual and states are free to come and go as they wish?

To pingy: Where the hell does the concept “perpetual” come from? I can’t find it in the Constitution or in the Declaration of Independence. And what the hell does it have to do with secession? Should states decide to secede the entire federal government becomes meaningless from their perspective.

pinqy;6419212

Impliciit in ANY government is the right to defend itself, and as I stated earlier, the Constitution gives Congress the explicit ability to surpress insurrection, specifically forbids States from engaing in War on their own entering into alliances with other states

To pingy: The Constitution did not give the federal government the authority to make war on the people pursuing secession peacefully as did Lincoln. Nothing has changed in that regard.

pinqy;6419212

and defines Treason as levvying war against the United States.

To pingy: If you want the definition of treason look at the federal government and the United Nations. The federal government embraces, even supports, America’s enemies in that ORGANIZATION making war on the United States. They’ve been doing it for decades, yet you are offended by Americans who would secede from the traitors.

 

[del]

damn, there are some stupid people walking around loose.

 

[Flanders]

That brute force you keep interjecting occurred because the Confederates fired upon Fort Sumter, therfore committing an act of war.If you don't want brute force used then don't start a war.

To Moonglow: Fort Sumpter was as inevitable as was the Battle of Bunker Hill. It’s a pity the Confederate States did not send the federal government the first paragraph in the Declaration of Independence before Sumpter:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

The Declaration of Independence lists the causes for separation. I have selected a few that apply today if you substitute the federal government, or the president, for the King:

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

Does anyone doubt that federal courts are there to do the president’s bidding.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

That one is so obvious, I need not say more.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

Think Hussein’s ready reserve Corps in the Affordable Care Act when it is up and running.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

THE UNITED NATIONS —— specifically THE EPA.

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

The Affordable Care Act opposed by an overwhelming majority. Chief Justice Roberts even justified it by calling it a tax.

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

The Patriot Act.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

Protection has long since gone out the window. The federal government now punishes.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

Think open-borders and Islam’s jihad.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Today, those petitions are petitions to secede from the federal government.

 

[regent]

My neighborhood is getting signatures to secede from the state and the city. We have decided the state and city are lousy governments and once our neighborhood is out and free the better. Just think no more income tax, no more property tax, no school tax, we won't even have to license our cars, we have utopia on the horizon.
I haven't told anyone yet but once our neighborhood has seceeded from city and state, I'm thinking of seceeding from the neighborhood, that will truly be freedom.

 

[Flanders]

My neighborhood is getting signatures to secede from the state and the city. We have decided the state and city are lousy governments and once our neighborhood is out and free the better. Just think no more income tax, no more property tax, no school tax, we won't even have to license our cars, we have utopia on the horizon.
I haven't told anyone yet but once our neighborhood has seceeded from city and state, I'm thinking of seceeding from the neighborhood, that will truly be freedom.

To regent: My advice to you is too keep quiet about it. You might attract Senator Schumer’s attention. See #17 permalink.

 

[George Costanza]

The Secession Movement is not getting much coverage in the MSM, but it is alive and well. I’ve read a bunch of articles about secession written by knowledgeable people.

Articles about secession written by knowledgeable people seems an oxymoron to me.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Secession IS Constitutional because the Gov't is created by the States, not the other way around.

When you enter into a Contract and the the other Party has not honored it's part of the deal, you have every right to Sue to have the agreement enforced or have the deal declared Null and Void.

This Secessionist movement is not to start a new country, it's to re-establish Constitutional Law.

Now I know you Race Baiters out there will say "You just want Black people to be Slaves again". Wrong.

The 13th Amendment is part of the Constitution.

That’s more idiotic than the OP.

 

[jillian]

Secession IS Constitutional because the Gov't is created by the States, not the other way around.

When you enter into a Contract and the the other Party has not honored it's part of the deal, you have every right to Sue to have the agreement enforced or have the deal declared Null and Void.

This Secessionist movement is not to start a new country, it's to re-establish Constitutional Law.

Now I know you Race Baiters out there will say "You just want Black people to be Slaves again". Wrong.

The 13th Amendment is part of the Constitution.

not even a little accurate... not even slightly

antonin scalia on the subject of secession:

To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/2010/02/scalia-there-is-no-right-to-secede.html

 

[Grandma]

I have to wonder how that fringe will react when they're told "No."

To Grandma: Better you should wonder how government butchers will react should a state(s) secede. ...

There aren't enough secessionists in the country to populate Rhode Island, so you can lose the hard-on.

And for government butchers, aren't you jumping to conclusions just a little too quickly?

Here's a tip: Secede, let the fighting start, THEN mutilate a couple of bodies and post a video with "government butcher" propaganda. It's all in the timing.

 

[L.K.Eder]

damn, there are some stupid people walking around loose.

someone should do something about that.

 

[Flanders]

antonin scalia on the subject of secession:

To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/2010/02/scalia-there-is-no-right-to-secede.html

To jillian: Do you really think secessionists did not know where the Supreme Court stood before they signed petitions? You and everyone else who support tyranny continue to talk about the Supreme Court as though nine douche bag lawyers are the final word on this issue. Of course you and your kind would just love it if secessionists accepted the SCOTUS as the final word.

Unfortunately for you the Secession Movement began because of oppressive government. Supreme Court decisions like the ACA, Roe v. Wade, and so on. Those decisions are very much a part of the reason secessionists will not waste time, or put any hope, in the Supreme Court —— this court more so than previous courts: Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor, Breyer, Roberts, Kennedy, and now Scalia. I do not trust Alito either. The jury is still out on Clarence Thomas.

Here's a tip: Secede, let the fighting start, THEN mutilate a couple of bodies and post a video with "government butcher" propaganda. It's all in the timing.

To Grandma: Be careful what you wish for. Big government advocates could always rely upon one thing: Foreign governments knew that nothing would unite —— or reunite —— Americans faster than foreign intervention. Lincoln understood this better than anyone.

Lincoln also knew this: There were no foreign enemies capable of invading this country at the time of the Civil War:

All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. Abraham Lincoln

Had there been an enemy strong enough to get to the Ohio River neither Lincoln nor Congress would have resorted to force to prevent secession.

Learn this if you learn nothing else from the Secession Movement: Pre-Civil War conditions no longer exist; so you might examine your own beliefs in depth before deciding which side you are on.

Finally, American Socialists/Communists; i.e., the parasite class, never had any qualms about tearing down this country by violent revolution in order to achieve their aims. They preached and practiced violence right from the beginning (the Labor Movement). They were exactly like the Communists in czarist Russia. The country meant nothing to them so long as they got their way through violent revolution, or a believed threat of violence.

Now, totalitarian government advocates are running scared because many Americans, not only secessionists, believe that the federal government is not worth saving even if it means tearing the country apart as the Left has always done. That reality is the biggest shock wave running through the Democrat party today.

Bottom line: Socialists never played by the rules, while demanding that everyone else obey the laws they wrote. Now that freedom-loving Americans no longer have any say in their laws, or in their government, the time has come to attack Socialists just as they have attacked the country for more than a century. You might say that secession is a non-violent attack for openers.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

My neighborhood is getting signatures to secede from the state and the city. We have decided the state and city are lousy governments and once our neighborhood is out and free the better. Just think no more income tax, no more property tax, no school tax, we won't even have to license our cars, we have utopia on the horizon.
I haven't told anyone yet but once our neighborhood has seceeded from city and state, I'm thinking of seceeding from the neighborhood, that will truly be freedom.

No more city sewer or garbage or road maintenance either.

 

[Toro]

antonin scalia on the subject of secession:

To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/2010/02/scalia-there-is-no-right-to-secede.html

To jillian: Do you really think secessionists did not know where the Supreme Court stood before they signed petitions? You and everyone else who support tyranny continue to talk about the Supreme Court as though nine douche bag lawyers are the final word on this issue. Of course you and your kind would just love it if secessionists accepted the SCOTUS as the final word.

Unfortunately for you the Secession Movement began because of oppressive government. Supreme Court decisions like the ACA, Roe v. Wade, and so on. Those decisions are very much a part of the reason secessionists will not waste time, or put any hope, in the Supreme Court —— this court more so than previous courts: Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor, Breyer, Roberts, Kennedy, and now Scalia. I do not trust Alito either. The jury is still out on Clarence Thomas.

Here's a tip: Secede, let the fighting start, THEN mutilate a couple of bodies and post a video with "government butcher" propaganda. It's all in the timing.

To Grandma: Be careful what you wish for. Big government advocates could always rely upon one thing: Foreign governments knew that nothing would unite —— or reunite —— Americans faster than foreign intervention. Lincoln understood this better than anyone.

Lincoln also knew this: There were no foreign enemies capable of invading this country at the time of the Civil War:

All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. Abraham Lincoln

Had there been an enemy strong enough to get to the Ohio River neither Lincoln nor Congress would have resorted to force to prevent secession.

Learn this if you learn nothing else from the Secession Movement: Pre-Civil War conditions no longer exist; so you might examine your own beliefs in depth before deciding which side you are on.

Finally, American Socialists/Communists; i.e., the parasite class, never had any qualms about tearing down this country by violent revolution in order to achieve their aims. They preached and practiced violence right from the beginning (the Labor Movement). They were exactly like the Communists in czarist Russia. The country meant nothing to them so long as they got their way through violent revolution, or a believed threat of violence.

Now, totalitarian government advocates are running scared because many Americans, not only secessionists, believe that the federal government is not worth saving even if it means tearing the country apart as the Left has always done. That reality is the biggest shock wave running through the Democrat party today.

Bottom line: Socialists never played by the rules, while demanding that everyone else obey the laws they wrote. Now that freedom-loving Americans no longer have any say in their laws, or in their government, the time has come to attack Socialists just as they have attacked the country for more than a century. You might say that secession is a non-violent attack for openers.

Maybe you can reestablish your slaveocracy.

lol

 

[Toro]

My neighborhood is getting signatures to secede from the state and the city. We have decided the state and city are lousy governments and once our neighborhood is out and free the better. Just think no more income tax, no more property tax, no school tax, we won't even have to license our cars, we have utopia on the horizon.
I haven't told anyone yet but once our neighborhood has seceeded from city and state, I'm thinking of seceeding from the neighborhood, that will truly be freedom.

No more city sewer or garbage or road maintenance either.

Those things are the province of totalitarians.

 

[Old Rocks]

I think Flanders and those like him take themselves far to seriously. Really, acting like a spoiled adolescent, and having a fit because you lost an election is going to get you respect?

No, there will be no seccession. The fruitloops signing that drivel hardly capable of organizing a Cub Scout Den, let alone another government.