CDZ Israeli Profile in Courage: The occupation is destroying our own society, too

[Procrustes Stretched]

Israeli Profile in Courage: The occupation is destroying our own society, too
[ A very current event ]


lt's an interesting article written by an Israeli. It's civil and to the point. The rational and reasonable way the Israeli writer makes his case is very unlike what I see in the message board dedicated to issues on the Israeli/Palestinian crisis. So I wondered, Could members of usmb be as civil and to the point, and as rational and reasonable in their arguments as the Israeli writer of the article is? I see this man as a profile in courage because he is speaking what he thinks is truth to power, knowing he will be viewed as a traitor or worse. That is true courage. Courage is not having the mob behind you, or the power of the state behind you. True courage is having truth behind you. Naked, unvarnished truth.

I was an Israel Defense Forces soldier in Gaza 27 years ago, during the first intifada.
...

as an Israeli, I am more concerned with the actions of my own society, which are getting scarier and uglier by the moment.
...

The internal discussion in Israel is more militant, threatening and intolerant than it has ever been. Talk has trended toward fundamentalism ever since the Israeli operation in Gaza in late 2008, but it has recently gone from bad to worse. There seems to be only one acceptable voice, orchestrated by the government and its spokespeople, and beamed to all corners of the country by a clan of loyal media outlets drowning out all the others. Those few dissenters who attempt to contradict it — to ask questions, to protest, to represent a different color from this artificial consensus — are ridiculed and patronized at best, threatened, vilified and physically attacked at worst. Israelis not “supporting our troops” are seen as traitors, and newspapers asking questions about the government’s policies and actions are seen as demoralizing.​

 

[Compost]

Preface this "civil", "rational", "reasonable" article by someone in Omaha with "courage" to speak out, by insulting the audience you are sharing it with. What a classy way to invite discussion.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Preface this "civil", "rational", "reasonable" article by someone in Omaha with "courage" to speak out, by insulting the audience you are sharing it with. What a classy way to invite discussion.

Excuse me? Are you accusing Dante of insulting everybody by posting this article? Isn't that a personal attack?

 

[Compost]

Preface this "civil", "rational", "reasonable" article by someone in Omaha with "courage" to speak out, by insulting the audience you are sharing it with. What a classy way to invite discussion.

Excuse me? Are you accusing Dante of insulting everybody by posting this article? Isn't that a personal attack?

If you choose to call observing that the OP calls his intended audience usually not reasonable a personal attack then surely so is the OP's opening remark a personal attack. Right?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Preface this "civil", "rational", "reasonable" article by someone in Omaha with "courage" to speak out, by insulting the audience you are sharing it with. What a classy way to invite discussion.

Excuse me? Are you accusing Dante of insulting everybody by posting this article? Isn't that a personal attack?

If you choose to call observing that the OP calls his intended audience usually not reasonable a personal attack then surely so is the OP's opening remark a personal attack. Right?

"The rational and reasonable way the Israeli writer makes his case is very unlike what I see in the message board dedicated to issues on the Israeli/Palestinian crisis."

You should probably go back somewhere as you are not part of any intended audience. You are the exact opposite. I apologize for any confusion you may have and how me maybe not being clear enough could have contributed

"So I wondered, Could members of usmb be as civil and to the point, and as rational and reasonable in their arguments as the Israeli writer of the article is?"

You may be civil and to the point. You may even come across as reasonable and rational. But you are hijacking the OP . This back and forth between us is off topic.

I will ask you to pm me instead of continuing this here in the thread

thank you
Dante

 

[Compost]

I'm sorry you aren't open to a remark on your preface. As to pming you, I won't be doing that.

Re: the article, what the author describes is very disturbing but really no new ground is being exposed. Some of the attitudes he describes sound very much like verbiage used here in the US in reference to violence between blacks and whites. I wonder if the author's thoughts on Israelis has been influenced by his experiences on a US college campus.

Dante, I apologize if you continue to feel I've hijacked your thread.

 

[2aguy]

Israeli Profile in Courage: The occupation is destroying our own society, too
[ A very current event ]


lt's an interesting article written by an Israeli. It's civil and to the point. The rational and reasonable way the Israeli writer makes his case is very unlike what I see in the message board dedicated to issues on the Israeli/Palestinian crisis. So I wondered, Could members of usmb be as civil and to the point, and as rational and reasonable in their arguments as the Israeli writer of the article is? I see this man as a profile in courage because he is speaking what he thinks is truth to power, knowing he will be viewed as a traitor or worse. That is true courage. Courage is not having the mob behind you, or the power of the state behind you. True courage is having truth behind you. Naked, unvarnished truth.

I was an Israel Defense Forces soldier in Gaza 27 years ago, during the first intifada.
...

as an Israeli, I am more concerned with the actions of my own society, which are getting scarier and uglier by the moment.
...

The internal discussion in Israel is more militant, threatening and intolerant than it has ever been. Talk has trended toward fundamentalism ever since the Israeli operation in Gaza in late 2008, but it has recently gone from bad to worse. There seems to be only one acceptable voice, orchestrated by the government and its spokespeople, and beamed to all corners of the country by a clan of loyal media outlets drowning out all the others. Those few dissenters who attempt to contradict it — to ask questions, to protest, to represent a different color from this artificial consensus — are ridiculed and patronized at best, threatened, vilified and physically attacked at worst. Israelis not “supporting our troops” are seen as traitors, and newspapers asking questions about the government’s policies and actions are seen as demoralizing.​

So you are saying it is Israelis running around with knives murdering innocent people.....and firing rockets into Israel everyday?

 

[Billo_Really]

So you are saying it is Israelis running around with knives murdering innocent people.....and firing rockets into Israel everyday?

Actually, Israeli's are running around with knives killing innocent people. They were doing it 34 years before the first rocket flew. In fact, according to a famous Zionist humanist almost 100 years ago...

"They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination..."
- Ahad Ha'am​

...they've been doing it ever since they migrated into the area.

The only difference is now, like the Israeli in the OP, there are people (in Israel) starting to oppose this "despicable and dangerous inclination".

 

[Fishlore]

A civil and factual discussion of the Israel-Palestine issue is indeed badly needed. After almost fifty years of occupation, it is clear to pretty much everyone on all sides of the issue that the US-Israel alliance has reached the end of a bloody box canyon. How we got here and what to do about it are interwoven issues which have become hyper-sensitive for Americans because of years of skillful manipulation.

Since World War II, the USA has had a pattern of blundering with good intentions into tough issues without much understanding of the history of the conflict. Korea, Vietnam, and Syria are examples. Israel is a bit different, first because the conflict is much more recent in its origins than those other quagmires, and second because the Israel issue is influenced by a tiny number of immensely rich and influential America Jews with dual loyalties. Their influence on government and on the mass media is unique in our foreign affairs. I don't fault them for what they are doing, but it does make the issue different from all the others that have emerged in the post-colonial years since 1945.

Like most who post on the topic, I too have powerful feelings about the Palestinian tragedy. I will strive as best I can to shed light rather than heat. I hope I can succeed.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Compost

I'm sorry you aren't open to a remark on your preface. As to pming you, I won't be doing that.

Re: the article, what the author describes is very disturbing but really no new ground is being exposed. Some of the attitudes he describes sound very much like verbiage used here in the US in reference to violence between blacks and whites. I wonder if the author's thoughts on Israelis has been influenced by his experiences on a US college campus.

Dante, I apologize if you continue to feel I've hijacked your thread.

you go from dismissing the OP and insulting Dante to dismissing the Israeli man who wrote the article?

"I wonder if the author's thoughts on Israelis has been influenced by his experiences on a US college campus." -- what would that have to do with anything? Everyone's thoughst are influenced by others? The man stated he was influenced by what he ACTUALLY witnessed as an Israeli citizen and soldier.

are you an Israeli who has also served? If not how can you belittle his service so nonchalantly? Does ideology get in the way of listening? From your posts so far it appears it does. Your attitude is what the author described. You are living truth of his message

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

2aguy

So you are saying it is Israelis running around with knives murdering innocent people.....and firing rockets into Israel everyday?

Please, where did you get that from?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The only difference is now, like the Israeli in the OP, there are people (in Israel) starting to oppose this "despicable and dangerous inclination".

Please do NOT attack under the guise of a one-sided history lesson. The Israeli in the OP was civil, reasonable and rational. Emotional attacks like yours here are out of place. Try and argue with reason and in a rational and civil manner. This is NOT the Israeli/Palestinian board.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Fishlore

A civil and factual discussion of the Israel-Palestine issue is indeed badly needed. After almost fifty years of occupation, it is clear to pretty much everyone on all sides of the issue that the US-Israel alliance has reached the end of a bloody box canyon. How we got here and what to do about it are interwoven issues which have become hyper-sensitive for Americans because of years of skillful manipulation.

Since World War II, the USA has had a pattern of blundering with good intentions into tough issues without much understanding of the history of the conflict. Korea, Vietnam, and Syria are examples. Israel is a bit different, first because the conflict is much more recent in its origins than those other quagmires, and second because the Israel issue is influenced by a tiny number of immensely rich and influential America Jews with dual loyalties. Their influence on government and on the mass media is unique in our foreign affairs. I don't fault them for what they are doing, but it does make the issue different from all the others that have emerged in the post-colonial years since 1945.

Like most who post on the topic, I too have powerful feelings about the Palestinian tragedy. I will strive as best I can to shed light rather than heat. I hope I can succeed.

good points, but adding attacks on American Foreign Policy loose me.

Could you try comments on what the Israeli author wrote or on my OP leaving out criticism of the US?

You had some very interesting points at the start but then BOOM Bad USA

 

[Compost]

Compost

I'm sorry you aren't open to a remark on your preface. As to pming you, I won't be doing that.

Re: the article, what the author describes is very disturbing but really no new ground is being exposed. Some of the attitudes he describes sound very much like verbiage used here in the US in reference to violence between blacks and whites. I wonder if the author's thoughts on Israelis has been influenced by his experiences on a US college campus.

Dante, I apologize if you continue to feel I've hijacked your thread.

you go from dismissing the OP and insulting Dante to dismissing the Israeli man who wrote the article?

"I wonder if the author's thoughts on Israelis has been influenced by his experiences on a US college campus." -- what would that have to do with anything? Everyone's thoughst are influenced by others? The man stated he was influenced by what he ACTUALLY witnessed as an Israeli citizen and soldier.

are you an Israeli who has also served? If not how can you belittle his service so nonchalantly? Does ideology get in the way of listening? From your posts so far it appears it does. Your attitude is what the author described. You are living truth of his message

OK. I apologized to you for my initial effrontery. Still, you are obviously unwilling to consider my point of view without making it personal and making personal accusations about my motives in giving an opinion! Since I am determined to obey the rules of CDZ, I will say good-bye to you and your thread.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Compost? What was your point? What is your view? Oh well

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Can members of usmb be as civil and to the point, and as rational and reasonable in their arguments as the Israeli writer of the article is?

 

[jillian]

Israeli Profile in Courage: The occupation is destroying our own society, too
[ A very current event ]


lt's an interesting article written by an Israeli. It's civil and to the point. The rational and reasonable way the Israeli writer makes his case is very unlike what I see in the message board dedicated to issues on the Israeli/Palestinian crisis. So I wondered, Could members of usmb be as civil and to the point, and as rational and reasonable in their arguments as the Israeli writer of the article is? I see this man as a profile in courage because he is speaking what he thinks is truth to power, knowing he will be viewed as a traitor or worse. That is true courage. Courage is not having the mob behind you, or the power of the state behind you. True courage is having truth behind you. Naked, unvarnished truth.

I was an Israel Defense Forces soldier in Gaza 27 years ago, during the first intifada.
...

as an Israeli, I am more concerned with the actions of my own society, which are getting scarier and uglier by the moment.
...

The internal discussion in Israel is more militant, threatening and intolerant than it has ever been. Talk has trended toward fundamentalism ever since the Israeli operation in Gaza in late 2008, but it has recently gone from bad to worse. There seems to be only one acceptable voice, orchestrated by the government and its spokespeople, and beamed to all corners of the country by a clan of loyal media outlets drowning out all the others. Those few dissenters who attempt to contradict it — to ask questions, to protest, to represent a different color from this artificial consensus — are ridiculed and patronized at best, threatened, vilified and physically attacked at worst. Israelis not “supporting our troops” are seen as traitors, and newspapers asking questions about the government’s policies and actions are seen as demoralizing.​

perhaps the discussion in israel is more "militant" because it's they the missiles are being fired at.

i'm pretty sure, as usual, if the pals made peace, israel would, too. i'm equally certain that if israel stopped fighting back, the pals would destroy israel like their charter says they intend to.

finally, there are many people in israel far more moderate than netanyahu... just as baby bush didn't reflect the views of most americans

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

perhaps the discussion in israel is more "militant" because it's they the missiles are being fired at.

i'm pretty sure, as usual, if the pals made peace, israel would, too. i'm equally certain that if israel stopped fighting back, the pals would destroy israel like their charter says they intend to.

finally, there are many people in israel far more moderate than netanyahu... just as baby bush didn't reflect the views of most americans

Both sides claim it is violence or force that make the recent troubles more militant. But the point the author was making was that it was not always that way and the changes trouble him and others deeply. Israelis are increasingly on each other now. And he gives what he considers a few reasons why the believes this to be so.

Dante argued against the above line with Israeli's, in their home in Brookline, MA. Thought the couple were too far left or prematurely alarmist. I might have been correct, but in the end their views panned out.

 

[Billo_Really]

Please do NOT attack under the guise of a one-sided history lesson. The Israeli in the OP was civil, reasonable and rational. Emotional attacks like yours here are out of place. Try and argue with reason and in a rational and civil manner. This is NOT the Israeli/Palestinian board.

That was NOT an emotional attack! Who was I attacking? And what was unreasonable about my post? You are way off base here!

I draw an analogy between the comments of a famous, Zionist humanist, saying how his people are treating the local non-Jewish residents with cruelty and no one is stepping up and confronting these people, with the Israeli in the OP, 100 years later, stating what happens to those that stand up and object to the current status quo in Israel...

Those few dissenters who attempt to contradict it — to ask questions, to protest, to represent a different color from this artificial consensus — are ridiculed and patronized at best, threatened, vilified and physically attacked at worst.​

...and you claim I was attacking someone?

I'm sorry, I find your comments to me to be very uncivil, unreasonable and irrational.

 

[Billo_Really]

Both sides claim it is violence or force that make the recent troubles more militant.

Both sides might claim its the violence, but the violence is not equal on both sides.

One side does 10 times the violence than the other side does.