CDZ Israel and Palestine

[Billo_Really]

I gotta go, the Walking Dead is starting.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No one, I repeat, no one leaves a home they have been living in for generations, just because someone (they haven't met) comes in and
"asks them to"!

They had to be driven out. And they were driven out by Zionist aggression.

“Before the end of the mandate and...before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.”
- British author, Henry Cattan, “Palestine, The Arabs and Israel.”

Henry Cattan sat on the same committee with Emil(e) Ghoury, whom I quoted earlier, so either A) Ghoury is lying or B) Cattan is lying:

"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the actions of the Arab states, in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed to this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem."

-Emile Ghoury, an Arab commander and Palestine High Committee secretary, the Beirut Daily Telegraph 1948.

Ghoury was given command of the Army of the Holy War after the previous commander Abd al-Qadir al-Husseini died in April 1948, by none other than the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem at the time, Haj-Amin al Hussieni, who conspired with Nazi Germany to carry out extermination of the Jewish people.

April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state.
So no, it was not a lie.

Those attacks were most likely in retaliation for the Hadassah Convoy Massacre which occurred on April 13, 1948. The attacks you mention were mainly carried out by the Haganah Militia, whom happened to be escorting that convoy at the time.

Since the UNPP (UN Partition Plan) was never implemented, because the Arabs fully rejected it, the Arab territory that would have been given to the Arabs... no longer belonged to them or rather, it was never given to them. The didn't want it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I gotta go, the Walking Dead is starting.

Well, just be reminded, that's what your argument right now is.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Billo, you're misusing the word "apartheid."

You only need to read the Israeli Declaration of Independence in order to squash any idea that Israel ever intended to implement some sort of apartheid regime there. In it, Israel vows to:

"ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants regardless of religion, race, or sex."

Today, Arabs and Israelis live side by side in Israel. This is nothing but you being extremely cynical.

That's what they said, it's not what they did.

The millions of Arabs living in Israel says otherwise.

 

[TemplarKormac]

That shows there were over 1 million Arabs living there in 1947. There are currently over 700,000 refugees being denied the right of return by Israel.

Where do they want to return to?

But then again, there would have been no refugees if the Arabs had accepted the Partition Plan. It was that easy. When the resolution was announced, Arabs began fleeing. A leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib recounted how Arab soldiers began mistreating the residents there, he said and I quote:

“They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many [Arab] residents to leave the city under the protection of British tanks.”

Moreover John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan’s Arab Legion stated that villages and towns were being abandoned before the threat of war reached those areas:

“Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war.”

It doesn't matter who was living where, the Arabs were responsible for dispossessing Arabs and driving them out of their villages.

When the Jews did seize Tiberias, the Jewish Community Council is quoted by the New York Times issuing a statement saying:

"We did not dispossess them; they themselves chose this course. . . . Let no citizen touch their property.”

New York Times, (April 23, 1948)

Be reminded, that the cities the Zionists took (Haifa, Tiberias and Jaffa) were theirs according to the UN Partition Scheme:

Now, if you want to cite UN General Assembly Resolution 194, which Palestinians, and their supporters, cite as granting them a right of return...you'll be displeased to know that it never addressed the rights of the 700,000 Palestinians being "denied" entry into Israel.

1) In the first 15 paragraphs of Resolution 194, the first six sections dealt with ways to achieve a truce.

2) The next four paragraphs dealt with the way Jerusalem and accompanying areas could be demilitarized.

3) In so doing, the resolution called on all parties to allow for and protect the free access of holy sites by refugees, Arab or Jew.

4) On Paragraph 11 it mentions "that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors, should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property." It instructed the Coalition Commission to "facilitate the repatriation, resettlement repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation."

5) It is a misconception that the "refugee clause" refers only to the Arabs. It never granted an "unconditional right of return" to Palestinian Arabs. It instead addressed all of the refugees affected by the war.

You also flatly ignore the roughly 800,000 Jewish refugees who were expelled or forced out of their homes in by the Arabs. Funny how that never gets mentioned.

 

[Searcher44]

The IP conflict has gone on unresolved for a long time. What solutions are realistically possible?

Right now the situation in the Middle East is, to say the least, "unstable". There are issues of Islamic Extremism (through ISIS and associated groups), failed states (Iraq, Syria, Libya) and more players than can be counted. All of that effects a solution to a long standing conflict that fuels a lot of flames and, at it's heart, involves both fundamental justice for a people who have long been denied that and fundamental survival for a people who's very existance was at risk.

In my opinion - self determination, citizenship, freedom, equality and human rights are very important. We don't see that much in most of the Middle East. Yet. And that includes Israel. While it is better than it's neighbors, that isn't saying a whole lot incomparison with other western countries. On the other hand, self determination also includes the having the ability to govern it's citizens, provide security, and not allow out of control factions to send rockets into neighboring states. My personal opinon is - give them a state, then it's up to them to keep it. If they act as a rogue state, they suffer the consequences.

But there are additional complications, those of the ME in general. Several points have been raised that are a valid concern: an unstable, ununified state is a potential point for ISIS to infiltrate.

So what is a realistic and reasonable and just solution for the IP conflict at this time?

Hate to say it but there is no "realistic and reasonable and just solution for the IP conflict at this time". And there won't be until the U.S. stops being a pawn of the Israeli lobby and uses it's influence to enforce a fair two state solution. And I mean fair, I am not anti-Israel or pro-Palestine, I'm a humanist wishing peace and freedom and a livable environment for all peoples.

 

[Judicial review]

The palistinians will never be given a state and Israel will never give up its land. It's in the bible. Israel is protected by the highest power. God. Christians and jews both know this. Muslims will go to hell fighting this unwinnable war.

Better to just accept it. Move on.

 

[Coyote]

Let's get back to the topic and not derail the thread into the history of Israel and Palestine (which frequently happens with these threads) - there are multiple, and probably equally accurate versions of history depending on one's perspective. Nothing is going to change that so we have to look at what we have now.

One group of people with a nation, who's security is threatened.
Another group of people with no nation and a second class status.
A third group residing in refugee camps.

 

[Coyote]

The palistinians will never be given a state and Israel will never give up its land. It's in the bible. Israel is protected by the highest power. God. Christians and jews both know this. Muslims will go to hell fighting this unwinnable war.

Better to just accept it. Move on.

I don't tend to agree simply because I don't think rights should be based on religion (it's the cause of too many conflicts) - but...assuming that is true, what are you going to do with all these people involved in this?

 

[Judicial review]

The palistinians will never be given a state and Israel will never give up its land. It's in the bible. Israel is protected by the highest power. God. Christians and jews both know this. Muslims will go to hell fighting this unwinnable war.

Better to just accept it. Move on.

I don't tend to agree simply because I don't think rights should be based on religion (it's the cause of too many conflicts) - but...assuming that is true, what are you going to do with all these people involved in this?

It's not what I'll do its what God will do. Many will parish. Life's not meant to be easy in fact it can be down right scary.

 

[irosie91]

Let's get back to the topic and not derail the thread into the history of Israel and Palestine (which frequently happens with these threads) - there are multiple, and probably equally accurate versions of history depending on one's perspective. Nothing is going to change that so we have to look at what we have now.

One group of people with a nation, who's security is threatened.
Another group of people with no nation and a second class status.
A third group residing in refugee camps.

not at all a unique situation in the history of mankind. What happened to the
tens of millions of displaced persons that resulted from the Russian revolution? ---
from world war I ? from world war II ? ----from all sorts of natural disasters
like tidal waves, volcanos, etc etc? from plague and other pandemics?
from famines? The people who lately call themselves "Palestinians" are like
displaced persons. When they got originally displaced there were less of them
than there are now displaced syrians

 

[Fishlore]

The palistinians will never be given a state and Israel will never give up its land. It's in the bible. Israel is protected by the highest power. God. Christians and jews both know this. Muslims will go to hell fighting this unwinnable war.

Better to just accept it. Move on.

What is in the Bible is that God destroyed the Kingdom of the Jews several times, sentencing them to exile and death for breaking the Covenant and the Law. The Old Testament is quite explicit about Nebuchadnezzar as agent of the wrath of Yahweh and the Babylonian Captivity as punishment for the sins of the rulers of Israel.

So firmly is this meme embedded in the books of the Bible that the next great defeat and expulsion of the Jews from the Promised Land, in 72 CE was immediately interpreted by the followers of Jesus as God's punishment of His people for their treatment of their Messiah.

Go forward almost two millennia and we find Jewish scholars describing the Nazi Final Solution as a Holocaust, the sacrificial destruction of an innocent (animal) victim as a burnt offering in expiation to God for the sins of His people.

BOTTOM LINE: The Bible supported by 2,000 years of Jewish history has a central theme of the destruction of Israel and the diaspora of the Jews as God's punishment for their failure to keep the law.

Interestingly enough, the return from exile in Babylon was marked by a great renewal and reform of Jewish practice and the construction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, the only site on which mandatory ritual sacrifice may be carried out. That temple was pulled down by the Romans in 72 CE. It's remaining stones constitute the Wailing Wall, the most sacred site on Earth for Jews.

Naturally enough, when the site of the temple was recovered in 1967, there was wide expectation that the temple would again be rebuilt and ritual sacrifice resumed according to the mandates of Torah. This did not happen and has not happened, a fact taken by a number of Orthodox Jewish thinkers as proof that the UN establishment of the secular state of Israel is a violation of the will of God and an act of blasphemy whose only result must be the eventual overthrow of the Jewish State and the scattering of its people.

The Iranian ayatollahs are not the only ones who want to wipe Israel off the map; a number of widely respected rabbis hold similar views.

 

[Skylar]

One that isn't often discussed....is the annexation by Israel of Palestinian territory. Making the Palestinians Israelis, a country that already has a large Arab Israeli population.

Polls of palestinians in the west bank have shown surprisingly strong support for such a proposal. It would also eliminate any claims of 'occupation'. As the territory would belong to Israel.

 

[Indeependent]

One that isn't often discussed....is the annexation by Israel of Palestinian territory. Making the Palestinians Israelis, a country that already has a large Arab Israeli population.

Polls of palestinians in the west bank have shown surprisingly strong support for such a proposal. It would also eliminate any claims of 'occupation'. As the territory would belong to Israel.

Cool...Mod-Edit: This is the CDZ

 

[Skylar]

One that isn't often discussed....is the annexation by Israel of Palestinian territory. Making the Palestinians Israelis, a country that already has a large Arab Israeli population.

Polls of palestinians in the west bank have shown surprisingly strong support for such a proposal. It would also eliminate any claims of 'occupation'. As the territory would belong to Israel.

Cool...so much bullshit without referencing one verse.
Ignoramous.

So other than the insults, do you have anything constructive to say? Any point you even disagree with?

If that's it.....might I recommend you try some place other than the 'clean debate zone'. As you're clearly not well suited for the degree of conversation here.

 

[Coyote]

Remember this is the CDZ. Stick to the topic. No flaming, no putdowns.

 

[Coyote]

Is annexation and one state truly workable?

 

[Coyote]

The palistinians will never be given a state and Israel will never give up its land. It's in the bible. Israel is protected by the highest power. God. Christians and jews both know this. Muslims will go to hell fighting this unwinnable war.

Better to just accept it. Move on.

I don't tend to agree simply because I don't think rights should be based on religion (it's the cause of too many conflicts) - but...assuming that is true, what are you going to do with all these people involved in this?

It's not what I'll do its what God will do. Many will parish. Life's not meant to be easy in fact it can be down right scary.

Any God that is into genocide is not one I will follow. There's been enough genocide over religious differences. The ME is a mess.

 

[Coyote]

One that isn't often discussed....is the annexation by Israel of Palestinian territory. Making the Palestinians Israelis, a country that already has a large Arab Israeli population.

Polls of palestinians in the west bank have shown surprisingly strong support for such a proposal. It would also eliminate any claims of 'occupation'. As the territory would belong to Israel.

Do you have any links? And how do they envision such a state?

 

[Skylar]

Is annexation and one state truly workable?

Its problematic....but then so is every other idea. It is however an approach that hasn't been as fully explored as others. I think on the West Bank front its more viable. On Gaza? Not so much.

Gaza tends to be more militant, the West Bank less so. Any two state solution is going to run into major problems because of Israel's insistence of making Jerusalem its capital, despite the fact that it sits in the center of territory that isn't its own. It would be like the US making Ottawa its capital. And canada saying otherwise.

Such an arrangement necessitates constant conflict as unless everyone visiting is airdropped, they would have to pass through non-israeli territory to get to their own capital. Tel Aviv makes more sense logistically. But the israeli's want Jerusalem.

Well, annex it. The territory and the entire west bank then becomes Israeli territory.Israel would love the territory. Its the source of most of the water used in the lower lands to the west. It includes Jerusalem and restores Israel to much of its Torah era boundaries.

The main issue is the people. Israel wants to maintain a 'uniquely Jewish character'. By annexing the territory they'd also have to annex the people. And that means many, many more Arab Israelis.

However......Arab Israelies are generally pretty peaceful. And Israel is going to have to do something about the people eventually. The longer it waits the more severe the issues will become. And have become.

By making them Arab Israelies with most rights, they remove much of the impetus of rebellion. You might even be able to get Arab financial support for Arab Israeli economic initiatives to improve the employment and education situation of west bank arabs.

Gaza....is a whole different ball of wax. But with Gaza they can literally quarantine it. Not so much with the West Bank.