CDZ Israel and Palestine

[Coyote]

The IP conflict has gone on unresolved for a long time. What solutions are realistically possible?

Right now the situation in the Middle East is, to say the least, "unstable". There are issues of Islamic Extremism (through ISIS and associated groups), failed states (Iraq, Syria, Libya) and more players than can be counted. All of that effects a solution to a long standing conflict that fuels a lot of flames and, at it's heart, involves both fundamental justice for a people who have long been denied that and fundamental survival for a people who's very existance was at risk.

In my opinion - self determination, citizenship, freedom, equality and human rights are very important. We don't see that much in most of the Middle East. Yet. And that includes Israel. While it is better than it's neighbors, that isn't saying a whole lot incomparison with other western countries. On the other hand, self determination also includes the having the ability to govern it's citizens, provide security, and not allow out of control factions to send rockets into neighboring states. My personal opinon is - give them a state, then it's up to them to keep it. If they act as a rogue state, they suffer the consequences.

But there are additional complications, those of the ME in general. Several points have been raised that are a valid concern: an unstable, ununified state is a potential point for ISIS to infiltrate.

So what is a realistic and reasonable and just solution for the IP conflict at this time?

 

[william the wie]

There isn't one. Yassir Arafat in Kuwait for example was treated as a hired hand. Jordon expelled the Palistinians in 1970 and the West Bank is not desired. Egypt would not take Gaza back. Syria says it would take back the Golan but it would make up excuses if offered the deal.

 

[TheOldSchool]

I agree with William that there is no solution. This is a religious conflict spanning thousands of years. Both Israelis and Palestinians believe the land belongs to them according to mythical stories from thousands of years ago, and they believe it is their duty to fight to the death to control those lands.

It's fun to dream about a 2 state solution, but the only realistic outcome is that one side destroys the other and either gets destroyed itself from the global backlash or somehow manages to survive.

There is no middle ground when it comes to religious extremism.

 

[Billo_Really]

The IP conflict has gone on unresolved for a long time. What solutions are realistically possible?

Right now the situation in the Middle East is, to say the least, "unstable". There are issues of Islamic Extremism (through ISIS and associated groups), failed states (Iraq, Syria, Libya) and more players than can be counted. All of that effects a solution to a long standing conflict that fuels a lot of flames and, at it's heart, involves both fundamental justice for a people who have long been denied that and fundamental survival for a people who's very existance was at risk.

In my opinion - self determination, citizenship, freedom, equality and human rights are very important. We don't see that much in most of the Middle East. Yet. And that includes Israel. While it is better than it's neighbors, that isn't saying a whole lot incomparison with other western countries. On the other hand, self determination also includes the having the ability to govern it's citizens, provide security, and not allow out of control factions to send rockets into neighboring states. My personal opinon is - give them a state, then it's up to them to keep it. If they act as a rogue state, they suffer the consequences.

But there are additional complications, those of the ME in general. Several points have been raised that are a valid concern: an unstable, ununified state is a potential point for ISIS to infiltrate.

So what is a realistic and reasonable and just solution for the IP conflict at this time?

A realistic and reasonable and just solution always starts and ends with the truth. First, we need to stop lying to ourselves, then stop lying to others. As someone who recently (within the last 5 years) became interested in this conflict; someone completely detached from the conflict; not a member of any group in the conflict; and nothing to gain or lose depending on the outcome of the conflict; it stands to reason, I am one of the most objective voices you will hear, weighing in on this conflict.

With that being said, you cannot solve any problem until you break it down to its root causes. This is not a religious war. It is not an unsolvable problem. The problem is a basic and simple one.

The lie:
The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational “terrorists” who have no point of view worth listening to.

The truth:
"...the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice."

Violence did not start between Jewish and Arab residents until the Zionist migration started in 1882. Before that, they got along.

“[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”​

The solution is to speak truth to power. For American's, we must write our Representatives and tell them we will not vote for anyone pledging an allegiance to any country other than the United States. We need to stop protecting Israel with our veto in the UNSC. We must force Israel to answer for the crimes they have committed.

This is not a tit-for-tat conflict. One side is blamed for all the killing, while the other side kills with impunity. That has to end!

 

[TemplarKormac]

The IP conflict has gone on unresolved for a long time. What solutions are realistically possible?

Right now the situation in the Middle East is, to say the least, "unstable". There are issues of Islamic Extremism (through ISIS and associated groups), failed states (Iraq, Syria, Libya) and more players than can be counted. All of that effects a solution to a long standing conflict that fuels a lot of flames and, at it's heart, involves both fundamental justice for a people who have long been denied that and fundamental survival for a people who's very existance was at risk.

In my opinion - self determination, citizenship, freedom, equality and human rights are very important. We don't see that much in most of the Middle East. Yet. And that includes Israel. While it is better than it's neighbors, that isn't saying a whole lot incomparison with other western countries. On the other hand, self determination also includes the having the ability to govern it's citizens, provide security, and not allow out of control factions to send rockets into neighboring states. My personal opinon is - give them a state, then it's up to them to keep it. If they act as a rogue state, they suffer the consequences.

But there are additional complications, those of the ME in general. Several points have been raised that are a valid concern: an unstable, ununified state is a potential point for ISIS to infiltrate.

So what is a realistic and reasonable and just solution for the IP conflict at this time?

A realistic and reasonable and just solution always starts and ends with the truth. First, we need to stop lying to ourselves, then stop lying to others. As someone who recently (within the last 5 years) became interested in this conflict; someone completely detached from the conflict; not a member of any group in the conflict; and nothing to gain or lose depending on the outcome of the conflict; it stands to reason, I am one of the most objective voices you will hear, weighing in on this conflict.

With that being said, you cannot solve any problem until you break it down to its root causes. This is not a religious war. It is not an unsolvable problem. The problem is a basic and simple one.

The lie:
The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational “terrorists” who have no point of view worth listening to.

The truth:
"...the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice."

Violence did not start between Jewish and Arab residents until the Zionist migration started in 1882. Before that, they got along.

“[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”​

The solution is to speak truth to power. For American's, we must write our Representatives and tell them we will not vote for anyone pledging an allegiance to any country other than the United States. We need to stop protecting Israel with our veto in the UNSC. We must force Israel to answer for the crimes they have committed.

This is not a tit-for-tat conflict. One side is blamed for all the killing, while the other side kills with impunity. That has to end!

Billo, you leave out the fact that Arabs were selling their land to the Jews. They didn't just suddenly come barging in.

The land purchases began in the 1840's. The Jews began acquiring so much land, the Arabs got scared and revolted in 1936. It took almost a century, but the Arabs for all intents and purposes started this conflict.

The Arabs essentially displaced themselves. As the preamble of the Palestine Mandate states, they only recognized the Jews historical connection to the land, which goes back a full 3700 years. That's a full millennium before the "Palestinians" got there.

1) The Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

2) Recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country

 

[Fishlore]

The IP conflict has gone on unresolved for a long time. What solutions are realistically possible?

Right now the situation in the Middle East is, to say the least, "unstable". There are issues of Islamic Extremism (through ISIS and associated groups), failed states (Iraq, Syria, Libya) and more players than can be counted. All of that effects a solution to a long standing conflict that fuels a lot of flames and, at it's heart, involves both fundamental justice for a people who have long been denied that and fundamental survival for a people who's very existance was at risk.

In my opinion - self determination, citizenship, freedom, equality and human rights are very important. We don't see that much in most of the Middle East. Yet. And that includes Israel. While it is better than it's neighbors, that isn't saying a whole lot incomparison with other western countries. On the other hand, self determination also includes the having the ability to govern it's citizens, provide security, and not allow out of control factions to send rockets into neighboring states. My personal opinon is - give them a state, then it's up to them to keep it. If they act as a rogue state, they suffer the consequences.

But there are additional complications, those of the ME in general. Several points have been raised that are a valid concern: an unstable, ununified state is a potential point for ISIS to infiltrate.

So what is a realistic and reasonable and just solution for the IP conflict at this time?

The immediate solution is obvious: Essentially, it is the Oslo-Taba solution to which both sides has been essentially in agreement and still are. The holdouts are the political leaders on both sides, understandably skeptical about the two major obstacles to the implementation of the long-standing two-state arrangement: internal and border security and the half-million technically illegal Jewish settlers on the West Bank.

The solution for the first obstacle is, obviously a UN force backed by the American military to control the exterior borders of Israel and Palestine as well as the internal border between the two nations, including the borders of the shared, international city of Jerusalem. This force would include the IDF as well as Arab League troops, US and UN peace keeping elements. Everybody has some skin in the game, nobody gets to break the rules.

The settler issue is based on the concept of dual Israel-Palestine citizenship for Jews remaining in Palestine and Palestinians remaining in Israel. Each group must agree to strict adherence to local laws and each country must adhere to explicitly guaranteed civil rights. Monitoring and enforcement will be done by a two-state commission under the authority of the UN.

This will, of course, be very challenging but by no means impossible. A near century of religiously inflamed political hatred and political manipulation has produced a sorry state of affairs in which, initially at least, neither Israel nor Palestine are able to play their roles without strict supervision. Extremist politicians on both sides will work their best to sabotage implementation despite majority popular support unless iron-clad (read "USA boots") security measures are guaranteed.

Experience has shown that neither side is able to generate the political spark needed to get the process off the ground. Like squabbling schoolboys, Israelis and Palestinians alike are going to have to be led to the peace table whether they like it or not.

 

[irosie91]

the immediate solution is EQUITY. -----the actions of all countries should be
evaluated equally as to the issue of "international" interference

 

[irosie91]

The IP conflict has gone on unresolved for a long time. What solutions are realistically possible?

Right now the situation in the Middle East is, to say the least, "unstable". There are issues of Islamic Extremism (through ISIS and associated groups), failed states (Iraq, Syria, Libya) and more players than can be counted. All of that effects a solution to a long standing conflict that fuels a lot of flames and, at it's heart, involves both fundamental justice for a people who have long been denied that and fundamental survival for a people who's very existance was at risk.

In my opinion - self determination, citizenship, freedom, equality and human rights are very important. We don't see that much in most of the Middle East. Yet. And that includes Israel. While it is better than it's neighbors, that isn't saying a whole lot incomparison with other western countries. On the other hand, self determination also includes the having the ability to govern it's citizens, provide security, and not allow out of control factions to send rockets into neighboring states. My personal opinon is - give them a state, then it's up to them to keep it. If they act as a rogue state, they suffer the consequences.

But there are additional complications, those of the ME in general. Several points have been raised that are a valid concern: an unstable, ununified state is a potential point for ISIS to infiltrate.

So what is a realistic and reasonable and just solution for the IP conflict at this time?

A realistic and reasonable and just solution always starts and ends with the truth. First, we need to stop lying to ourselves, then stop lying to others. As someone who recently (within the last 5 years) became interested in this conflict; someone completely detached from the conflict; not a member of any group in the conflict; and nothing to gain or lose depending on the outcome of the conflict; it stands to reason, I am one of the most objective voices you will hear, weighing in on this conflict.

With that being said, you cannot solve any problem until you break it down to its root causes. This is not a religious war. It is not an unsolvable problem. The problem is a basic and simple one.

The lie:
The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational “terrorists” who have no point of view worth listening to.

The truth:
"...the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice."

Violence did not start between Jewish and Arab residents until the Zionist migration started in 1882. Before that, they got along.

“[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”​

The solution is to speak truth to power. For American's, we must write our Representatives and tell them we will not vote for anyone pledging an allegiance to any country other than the United States. We need to stop protecting Israel with our veto in the UNSC. We must force Israel to answer for the crimes they have committed.

This is not a tit-for-tat conflict. One side is blamed for all the killing, while the other side kills with impunity. That has to end!

Billo, you leave out the fact that Arabs were selling their land to the Jews. They didn't just suddenly come barging in.

The land purchases began in the 1840's. The Jews began acquiring so much land, the Arabs got scared and revolted in 1936. It took almost a century, but the Arabs for all intents and purposes started this conflict.

The Arabs essentially displaced themselves. As the preamble of the Palestine Mandate states, they only recognized the Jews historical connection to the land, which goes back a full 3700 years. That's a full millennium before the "Palestinians" got there.

1) The Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

2) Recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country

unless you know shariah law-----you cannot understand the actual basis for the
conflict. Land ownership by JEWS has been illegal for 1700 years according
to the originator of that which became the Nuremburg laws-----Constantine, of the first reich (speaking of ROOT CAUSES of the conflict) The root cause of the conflict is ATATURK-----he made it legal in those parts of the OTTOMAN empire which were agreeable----for jews to <gasp> OWN LAND. Muslims have cherished the doctrine of "JEWS CANNOT OWN LAND" since the inception of islam and never actually recognized the purchases of land by jews allowed by the OTTOMANS. The catholic church dropped it------in little bubbles and bursts over the centuries. BUT ownership of land by jews ANYWHERE IN THE MUSLIM MIDDLE EAST is an affront to islam. Please note-----ataturk is being progressively
vilified in the "literature"

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo, you leave out the fact that Arabs were selling their land to the Jews. They didn't just suddenly come barging in.

I didn't say they did.

But the land that was bought, there were requirements by the lending authority the land could not be worked by anyone except a Jew. And the land could not be sold to anyone but a Jew. That's apartheid.

The land purchases began in the 1840's. The Jews began acquiring so much land, the Arabs got scared and revolted in 1936.

The Arabs revolted as a result of Zionist terrorist groups like Irgun. Who drove out over 700,000 indigenous residents.

It took almost a century, but the Arabs for all intents and purposes started this conflict.

The conflict started with migrating Zionists treating the local residents like garbage.

"They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.” Zionist writer Ahad Ha’am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”​

What person in their right mind would allow someone to treat them like that without responding?

The Arabs essentially displaced themselves. As the preamble of the Palestine Mandate states, they only recognized the Jews historical connection to the land, which goes back a full 3700 years. That's a full millennium before the "Palestinians" got there.

1) The Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

2) Recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country

This is from your own post...

"...it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."​

But Zionists didn't do that, did they?

 

[irosie91]

no they didn't--------there are facts about the middle east of which you are very ignorant-------there is church owned land there with similar stipulations regarding
jews. APARTHEID--------The land jews owned was bought thru a "TRUST"---
similar to the one that owns the ARMENEAN CHURCH LANDS--------a good thing
in your mind-------a factoid that the writer of "bitter harvest" happily excluded from his
book. The IRGUN was formed in 1931 as a reaction to arab terrorism and the british policy of blocked jewish escape from previously OTTOMAN controlled
"arab" lands and later on escape from German controlled lands

 

[jwoodie]

Four Party Solution

Israel/Palestine governed by four bodies: Israeli Parliament, Palestinian Parliament, Jewish Parliament and Muslim parliament. Israeli Parliament retains authority over national affairs unless overridden by other three bodies. This could empower those who want peace while marginalizing those who do not.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I didn't say they did.

But the land that was bought, there were requirements by the lending authority the land could not be worked by anyone except a Jew. And the land could not be sold to anyone but a Jew. That's apartheid.

How is that "apartheid"? Do you even know what "apartheid" is, Billo?

The Arabs revolted as a result of Zionist terrorist groups like Irgun. Who drove out over 700,000 indigenous residents.

That's a patent lie. They didn't leave because of anything the Zionists did.

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protectt he Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".

-Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

Palestinian journalist describes Arab leaders action in 1948:

"To the [Arab] Kings and Presidents: Poverty is killing us... yet you are still searching for the way to provide aid... like the armies of your predecessors in the year of 1948, who forced us to leave [Israel], on the pretext of clearing the battlefields of civilians... "

-Fuad Abu Higla, columnist official PA daily Al Hayat Al Jadida, in an article before an Arab Summit, critical of Arab leaders for a series of failures. Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, March 19, 2001

"The Arab exodus from other villages were not caused by actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to encourage the other Arab nations to fight the Jews."

-Yunes Ahmed Assad, A survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre, Al Urdun, 1948

"The Jews never intended to hurt the population of the village but were forced to do so after they met hostile fire from the population which killed the Irgun commander."

-Yunes Ahmed Assad a survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre in the Jordan daily Al Urdun (April 9, 1953)

"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the actions of the Arab states, in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed to this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem."

-Emile Ghoury, an Arab commander and Palestine High Committee secretary, the Beirut Daily Telegraph 1948.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The conflict started with migrating Zionists treating the local residents like garbage.

"They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.” Zionist writer Ahad Ha’am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
What person in their right mind would allow someone to treat them like that without responding?

So, the Palestinians don't say a word when one of their own commits an act of terrorism against Israel.

 

[Billo_Really]

How is that "apartheid"? Do you even know what "apartheid" is, Billo?

You won't allow someone to work on your farm because they're Muslim? You cannot sell land to a Muslim, or you'll fined?

How is that "not" apartheid?

That's a patent lie. They didn't leave because of anything the Zionists did.

What are you talking about? Zionists came in with the attitude of dispossessing Arabs from the land they had been living on for generations.

‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’
- Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism

‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’
- David Ben-Gurion
​

So Zionist ideology came in with the goal of driving out the Arab residents.

April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state.​

So no, it was not a lie.

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protectt he Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".

-Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

Palestinian journalist describes Arab leaders action in 1948:

"To the [Arab] Kings and Presidents: Poverty is killing us... yet you are still searching for the way to provide aid... like the armies of your predecessors in the year of 1948, who forced us to leave [Israel], on the pretext of clearing the battlefields of civilians... "

-Fuad Abu Higla, columnist official PA daily Al Hayat Al Jadida, in an article before an Arab Summit, critical of Arab leaders for a series of failures. Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, March 19, 2001

"The Arab exodus from other villages were not caused by actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to encourage the other Arab nations to fight the Jews."

-Yunes Ahmed Assad, A survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre, Al Urdun, 1948

"The Jews never intended to hurt the population of the village but were forced to do so after they met hostile fire from the population which killed the Irgun commander."

-Yunes Ahmed Assad a survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre in the Jordan daily Al Urdun (April 9, 1953)

"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the actions of the Arab states, in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed to this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem."

-Emile Ghoury, an Arab commander and Palestine High Committee secretary, the Beirut Daily Telegraph 1948.

No one, I repeat, no one leaves a home they have been living in for generations, just because someone (they haven't met) comes in and
"asks them to"!

They had to be driven out. And they were driven out by Zionist aggression.

“Before the end of the mandate and...before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.”
- British author, Henry Cattan, “Palestine, The Arabs and Israel.”
​

Before Arab armies had even intervened, Zionist military groups began seizing Arab towns and villages.

‘in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter’
- Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun​

 

[Billo_Really]

So, the Palestinians don't say a word when one of their own commits an act of terrorism against Israel.

I dunno.

 

[TemplarKormac]

How is that "apartheid"? Do you even know what "apartheid" is, Billo?

You won't allow someone to work on your farm because they're Muslim? You cannot sell land to a Muslim, or you'll fined?

How is that "not" apartheid?

That's a patent lie. They didn't leave because of anything the Zionists did.

What are you talking about? Zionists came in with the attitude of dispossessing Arabs from the land they had been living on for generations.

‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’
- Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism

‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’
- David Ben-Gurion
​

So Zionist ideology came in with the goal of driving out the Arab residents.

April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state.​

So no, it was not a lie.

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protectt he Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".

-Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

Palestinian journalist describes Arab leaders action in 1948:

"To the [Arab] Kings and Presidents: Poverty is killing us... yet you are still searching for the way to provide aid... like the armies of your predecessors in the year of 1948, who forced us to leave [Israel], on the pretext of clearing the battlefields of civilians... "

-Fuad Abu Higla, columnist official PA daily Al Hayat Al Jadida, in an article before an Arab Summit, critical of Arab leaders for a series of failures. Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, March 19, 2001

"The Arab exodus from other villages were not caused by actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to encourage the other Arab nations to fight the Jews."

-Yunes Ahmed Assad, A survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre, Al Urdun, 1948

"The Jews never intended to hurt the population of the village but were forced to do so after they met hostile fire from the population which killed the Irgun commander."

-Yunes Ahmed Assad a survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre in the Jordan daily Al Urdun (April 9, 1953)

"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the actions of the Arab states, in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed to this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem."

-Emile Ghoury, an Arab commander and Palestine High Committee secretary, the Beirut Daily Telegraph 1948.

No one, I repeat, no one leaves a home they have been living in for generations, just because someone (they haven't met) comes in and
"asks them to"!

They had to be driven out. And they were driven out by Zionist aggression.

“Before the end of the mandate and...before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.”
- British author, Henry Cattan, “Palestine, The Arabs and Israel.”
​

Before Arab armies had even intervened, Zionist military groups began seizing Arab towns and villages.

‘in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter’
- Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun​

Amazon.com: Alyssa A. Lappen's review of The Claim of Dispossession: Jewish Land-Se...

Looks like you're incorrect. Again.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Billo, you're misusing the word "apartheid."

You only need to read the Israeli Declaration of Independence in order to squash any idea that Israel ever intended to implement some sort of apartheid regime there. In it, Israel vows to:

"ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants regardless of religion, race, or sex."

Today, Arabs and Israelis live side by side in Israel. This is nothing but you being extremely cynical.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You won't allow someone to work on your farm because they're Muslim? You cannot sell land to a Muslim, or you'll fined?

How is that "not" apartheid?

Is it happening in Israel now?

 

[Billo_Really]

Amazon.com: Alyssa A. Lappen's review of The Claim of Dispossession: Jewish Land-Se...

Looks like you're incorrect. Again.

Care to explain what your book review has to do with my post and how "specifically" is it proving I'm "wrong"?

I provided you specific comments from the people who were involved in the conflict and you counter with some book that is based on the "review of records"...

From your link:
"The examination of records from 1830 onward..."
"...records from 1830, 1863, 1878 and 1893 and 1917, among others..."​

What records are they talking about?

And why can't you specifically address the points I made in my post?

I'll use a different source for the numbers of immigrants in Palestine in 1931...

The 1931 census of Palestine ...gave the proportion of persons living in Palestine in 1931 who were born outside Palestine: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%.​

58% of Jews migrated in. Only 2% of Muslims had migrated in.

This is what your book review said...

"The 1931 Mandatory government census counted 693,147 permanent Moslem residents, including 66,553 Bedouins. It also gave the natural increase of the population as 132,211 --- 57,125 less than the absolute increase. Only illegal Arab immigration explains this contradiction, Avneri shows."​

What the hell does that mean?

This is from another source...



That shows there were over 1 million Arabs living there in 1947. There are currently over 700,000 refugees being denied the right of return by Israel.

Where do they want to return to?

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo, you're misusing the word "apartheid."

You only need to read the Israeli Declaration of Independence in order to squash any idea that Israel ever intended to implement some sort of apartheid regime there. In it, Israel vows to:

"ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants regardless of religion, race, or sex."

Today, Arabs and Israelis live side by side in Israel. This is nothing but you being extremely cynical.

That's what they said, it's not what they did.