Islam and WWII

[tinydancer]

opinions are not facts. exactly what legacy lives on today? you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on. he was fighting for arab nationalism and against european colonialism. i think that is a legacy that lives on...and it is not a legacy of islam. it is a legacy of a people who have fought for their independence, primarily against the british, long beore hitler came along.

you mentioned haj amin al-husseini and that is one muslim. that was to whom i was responding in YOUR post.

shall we discuss france's historical ties to hitler or shall we think of degaulle and the free french forces helping to liberate paris.

there is no historical connection between islam and the NAZIs and you cannot seem to understand that. islam is a non centralised religion not unlie judaism organisationally. neither religion has a central authority.

With all due respect, you are missing the point I am making.

The Grand Mufti and other exiles and the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated on a major propaganda effort using selective portions of the Koran and Islamic traditions to poison the Arab world against Jews and against the west.
I have to address this. I gave you early on in the thread his activities before 1940. He was appointed Grand Mufti by the First High Commissioner to Palestine strangely enough by a British Jew.

His greatest talent was not as a freedom fighter, but whipping others into a frenzy. A demagogue if you will. He ran in the middle of the Arab Revolt. 1937. He always let others do the fighting.

so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal? mali, turkey. he did not represent islam.

right now, we have a rabbi on the west bank, a very well respected talmudic(interpretation.of jewish law) scholar, preaching that it is alright to kill arab children...it is a mitzvah.

so ok...if islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs, then judaism has a historic connection with the infanticide of gentile babies?

all we are doing now is going in circles by the way. is their any reason to prpolong this? you have not proved that islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs. you have proved that small, isolated factions of islam, or muslim individuals used the NAZIs to further their own ends of nationalism.

or pwrhaps you actually think that hitler, in his desire for a genetically pure german race, actually thought muslim peoples, some as black as the ace of spades, would fit in nicely with the genetic purity he was trying to achieve.

He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet.

The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.

 

[tinydancer]

so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal? mali, turkey. he did not represent islam.

It doesn't matter to this debate if it didn't work out as fabulously as they had hoped. The issue is the use of Islam in recruitment and propaganda.

You say you don't believe he represented Islam. But it doesn't matter what you think or I think. I'm not saying that in a mean way, but it's the truth. We don't count.

The Nazis believed he represented Islam. Mussolini believed he represented Islam.

And just as importantly, al Banna believed he represented Islam.

 

[tinydancer]

Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.

I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.

I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.

 

[sealadaigh]

With all due respect, you are missing the point I am making.

The Grand Mufti and other exiles and the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated on a major propaganda effort using selective portions of the Koran and Islamic traditions to poison the Arab world against Jews and against the west.
I have to address this. I gave you early on in the thread his activities before 1940. He was appointed Grand Mufti by the First High Commissioner to Palestine strangely enough by a British Jew.

His greatest talent was not as a freedom fighter, but whipping others into a frenzy. A demagogue if you will. He ran in the middle of the Arab Revolt. 1937. He always let others do the fighting.

so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal? mali, turkey. he did not represent islam.

right now, we have a rabbi on the west bank, a very well respected talmudic(interpretation.of jewish law) scholar, preaching that it is alright to kill arab children...it is a mitzvah.

so ok...if islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs, then judaism has a historic connection with the infanticide of gentile babies?

all we are doing now is going in circles by the way. is their any reason to prpolong this? you have not proved that islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs. you have proved that small, isolated factions of islam, or muslim individuals used the NAZIs to further their own ends of nationalism.

or pwrhaps you actually think that hitler, in his desire for a genetically pure german race, actually thought muslim peoples, some as black as the ace of spades, would fit in nicely with the genetic purity he was trying to achieve.

He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet.

The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.

and the KKK uses christianity.

look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.

also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.

so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.

but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.

 

[sealadaigh]

Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.

I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.

I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.

don't waste your time. the fact that the NAZIs used islam has nothing to do with anything. seriously, stop wasting our time. i want numbers.

 

[sealadaigh]

Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.

I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.

I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.

also, the fact that the NAZIs used the islamic faith for whateer purposes does not in anyway prove islams historic connection to the NAZIs. it shows that the NAZIs tried to use the islamic faith to their own ends.

 

[tinydancer]

so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal? mali, turkey. he did not represent islam.

right now, we have a rabbi on the west bank, a very well respected talmudic(interpretation.of jewish law) scholar, preaching that it is alright to kill arab children...it is a mitzvah.

so ok...if islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs, then judaism has a historic connection with the infanticide of gentile babies?

all we are doing now is going in circles by the way. is their any reason to prpolong this? you have not proved that islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs. you have proved that small, isolated factions of islam, or muslim individuals used the NAZIs to further their own ends of nationalism.

or pwrhaps you actually think that hitler, in his desire for a genetically pure german race, actually thought muslim peoples, some as black as the ace of spades, would fit in nicely with the genetic purity he was trying to achieve.

He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet.

The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.

and the KKK uses christianity.

look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.

also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.

so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.

but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.

You've given me the stories. You've given me no links.

 

[tinydancer]

Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.

I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.

I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.

also, the fact that the NAZIs used the islamic faith for whateer purposes does not in anyway prove islams historic connection to the NAZIs. it shows that the NAZIs tried to use the islamic faith to their own ends.

Aye carumba!

Islam was used. Therefore there is a historic connection. And I will be putting out data with links to the propaganda.

What next, Mussolini didn't win so it's not part of history?

Japan lost so it's not part of history?

The Nazis lost so it's not part of history?

Just because the use of Islam was not as successful as everybody hoped does not mean that it's not part of the historic account of the Nazi - Arab propaganda machine.

Good grief.

 

[tinydancer]

Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.

I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.

I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.

don't waste your time. the fact that the NAZIs used islam has nothing to do with anything. seriously, stop wasting our time. i want numbers.

All you have done is offered bizarre analogies, opinions, and comments on issues that have nothing to do the debate.

On the other hand I am offering evidence that everyone involved in the upper echelons of the Axis believed that the Islamic connection would assist in the war effort.

Just because the effort was not successful does not mean that it didn't happen. That's not how one judges history.

 

[tinydancer]

Looking forward to meeting you in here again tomorrow. I'm going to go have some fun in music now.

yours,
td

 

[sealadaigh]

He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet.

The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.

and the KKK uses christianity.

look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.

also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.

so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.

but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.

You've given me the stories. You've given me no links.

Palestine's Population During The Ottoman And The British Mandate Periods, 559

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers

Muslim Population Statistics

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.180.3753&rep=rep1&type=pdf

i hope you have an adding machine and graph paper for the world muslim population because ithey nwere not keen on demographics at the time. i got a low of 300,000,000 and a high of about 550,000,000 ...

or you can just do it the easy way, with a world population of 7 billion today and 2.3 billion in 1940 and do the rough but much easier math of 1.5 billion muslims today which, reduced correspondingly, would equal about 500,000,000 in 1940.

or, if you have better data, i will take it but reaally, 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 are pretty acceptable figures for between 1940 and 1972.

oh p,s, just so ya don't think i am a total weirdo, i needed that info once and wrote it down and extrapolated stuff. i used to be a fire direction computer in a division level artillery unit (9th divarty) and it ain't that easy to put a round on target five miles away, what with the world turning and the air getting thicker and 5 slide rules that ya had to mark adjustments on and stuff like time on targets and airbursts and do it all in 2 minutes or less.

i will try to find you some more easily understandable sites for the world muslim population then. the others should be pretty self evident as to numbers. those were old ones i had.

 

[sealadaigh]

and the KKK uses christianity.

look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.

also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.

so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.

but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.

You've given me the stories. You've given me no links.

Palestine's Population During The Ottoman And The British Mandate Periods, 559

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers

Muslim Population Statistics

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.180.3753&rep=rep1&type=pdf

i hope you have an adding machine and graph paper for the world muslim population because ithey nwere not keen on demographics at the time. i got a low of 300,000,000 and a high of about 550,000,000 ...

or you can just do it the easy way, with a world population of 7 billion today and 2.3 billion in 1940 and do the rough but much easier math of 1.5 billion muslims today which, reduced correspondingly, would equal about 500,000,000 in 1940.

or, if you have better data, i will take it but reaally, 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 are pretty acceptable figures for between 1940 and 1972.

oh p,s, just so ya don't think i am a total weirdo, i needed that info once and wrote it down and extrapolated stuff. i used to be a fire direction computer in a division level artillery unit (9th divarty) and it ain't that easy to put a round on target five miles away, what with the world turning and the air getting thicker and 5 slide rules that ya had to mark adjustments on and stuff like time on targets and airbursts and do it all in 2 minutes or less.

i will try to find you some more easily understandable sites for the world muslim population then. the others should be pretty self evident as to numbers. those were old ones i had.

actually, i don't need to provide links or anything. feel free to disregard any numbers for now. my links are valid and at the time i was arguing more on the basis of interest and not position. it is you, however, who made the allegation. i tried to be fair and use the figure that would most benefit your argument if there was a variance.

all you have given me is haj amin al-husseini to establish some sort of historical connection between hitler and islam or nazis and islam. i am not sure what you mean. when i brought up islam's "support" you backed off from that word. i suppose that we could also demonstrate islam's historical connection with the nazis by discussing the king of morocco's defiance of nai and the hitlers as proof also.

i, of course, assumed that your "connection with the nazis" meant there was support from islam of the nazis, particularly since you have only provided examples of muslims cooperating and collaborating with the nazis.

now, you have not answered one single question i have asked and, in fact, you have dismissed them rudely. if thaat is how you debate/discuss, than there is no reason at all for me to even be here. you may as well talk to yourself. i did ask a number of questions.

here is the most simple, reequiring only a yes or no answer. "while i am not speaking of catholics specifically, do you agree that most CHRISTIANS believe in the infallibility of the pope?" all i want is a "yes, i agree that most christians believe in papal infallibility" ot "no, most christians do not believe in papal infallibility."

stupid question, perhaps, but i ask questions like that actuaally in an attempt to understand exactly what you mean by proving that "islam's historical connection with the nazis." you also may want to explain that, as you really have not answered any direct or indirect queries on that matter.

so where are we this morning. well, i am a night owl but i went out of my way to accomodate you yesterday. no bigs. you said you would prove islam's historical commection with the nazis. you have merely served up the head of haj amin al-husseini a dozen or times and a point i had already conceded. so we really aren't arguing anything and you really haven't proven anything. all we have done is waste out time.

if you want to continue, you will need to answer some of the questions i ask or point out the errors in some of my analogy because i really do not have the time to waste.

help me out. here is another question. do you interpret islam's historical connection with the nazis the same, at least for the purpose of this argument, as islams's historical support of the nazis.

 

[tinydancer]

Well good morning. I too am a night hawk; if you would prefer to move our actual debating time today from 7pm to midnight, I'd be more than happy to engage you in that time period.

 

[tinydancer]

Now lets clear some things up. We are engaging in a debate. Factual accuracy is a key part of debating.
For me to accept your assertions, you have to back them up with links.

I have given links. And of course will continue to do so.

Debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Debate is a method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than deductive reasoning, which only examines whether a conclusion is a consequence of premisses, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case, or rhetoric, which is a technique of persuasion.

Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.

 

[sealadaigh]

Well good morning. I too am a night hawk; if you would prefer to move our actual debating time today from 7pm to midnight, I'd be more than happy to engage you in that time period.

night owl to me generally means midnight to about 6:00 AM. doesn't matter. just post when you can and i will respond when i can. my schedule is all up in the air anyway.

what i also need to know is what your definition of islam is? if you mean it is a religion not unlike judaism or christianity (other than theological beliefs, of course)?

and i need to know what you mean by "historical connection" because i thought you meant support...i.e. that islam supported the nazis? i mean, i can make a historical connection between newgrange, the incan pyramids, and solomon's temple.

it is time for you to be specific and define your terms.

also, you may want to realise, again, that opinion is not proof. facts are proof.

and again, if you do not start answering my questions, this is nothing but a lecture, and a rather monotonous one at this point, i might add. answer my few questions when i ask them or i am done. i am not asking superfluous questions like "was ted williams the greatesy hitter in baseball?"

keep blowing me off and i am out of here. i have told you to answer them at least three times. you ust blew by another one, and all it needed was a "yes" or "no" answer.

 

[tinydancer]

i, of course, assumed that your "connection with the nazis" meant there was support from islam of the nazis, particularly since you have only provided examples of muslims cooperating and collaborating with the nazis.

You assumed incorrectly. I do not believe that Islam embraced Nazism. I have stated this repeatedly. My contention and my premise for this debate is to prove the historical connection between the Nazis and the use of Islam during WWII.

Now why on earth would I provide examples of "mohammed six pack" not collaborating with the Nazis?



Instead I am proving and shall continue to prove how Islam was used in WWII as a tool for the Nazis; and how an extraordinarily powerful figure in Islam, the Grand Mufti joyfully collaborated with the Nazis in recruitment missions and in propagandizing.

AND it matters not what scale of success their plan had. Not at all.

The point was that this was part of the Nazi - Pan Arab idealogues' tactics in WWII.

 

[tinydancer]

Well good morning. I too am a night hawk; if you would prefer to move our actual debating time today from 7pm to midnight, I'd be more than happy to engage you in that time period.

night owl to me generally means midnight to about 6:00 AM. doesn't matter. just post when you can and i will respond when i can. my schedule is all up in the air anyway.

what i also need to know is what your definition of islam is? if you mean it is a religion not unlike judaism or christianity (other than theological beliefs, of course)?

and i need to know what you mean by "historical connection" because i thought you meant support...i.e. that islam supported the nazis? i mean, i can make a historical connection between newgrange, the incan pyramids, and solomon's temple.

it is time for you to be specific and define your terms.

also, you may want to realise, again, that opinion is not proof. facts are proof.

and again, if you do not start answering my questions, this is nothing but a lecture, and a rather monotonous one at this point, i might add. answer my few questions when i ask them or i am done. i am not asking superfluous questions like "was ted williams the greatesy hitter in baseball?"

keep blowing me off and i am out of here. i have told you to answer them at least three times. you ust blew by another one, and all it needed was a "yes" or "no" answer.

By no means am I blowing you off. I am trying to dissect your posts and respond to each of your concerns.

Hang in there.

 

[tinydancer]

Going to have brunch. And never fear; I shall address your questions.

 

[sealadaigh]

Now lets clear some things up. We are engaging in a debate. Factual accuracy is a key part of debating.
For me to accept your assertions, you have to back them up with links.

I have given links. And of course will continue to do so.

Debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Debate is a method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than deductive reasoning, which only examines whether a conclusion is a consequence of premisses, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case, or rhetoric, which is a technique of persuasion.

Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.

i have absolutely nothing to prove and yesterday was a courtesy on my part to you...to establish some facts. i provided you links so at least we have a base line. i didn't need to do that. that would be your responsibility. you provide whichever numbers you will. numbers are part of proving.

you made the assertion that you could prove that islam had a historical connection with the NAZIs and hitler.

all i said was that you could not prove that.

the burden of any proof lies entirely on you.

i had, even before you began, laid out your game plan for you, to which you have, for the most part, adhered.

now, i am asking you what you mean and i am telling you to answer my questions, which for some very odd reason, you seem very reluctant to do in the pursuit of your particular agenda.

 

[sealadaigh]

Going to have brunch. And never fear; I shall address your questions.

the particular question i asked earlier today/this morning merely required a "yes" or "no" answer. that is all i waanted. what? are you waiting for some coach, getting more chairs, calling an EMT for me, reading a comic with a DVD of WWE in the background?. what?

simce then i have asked a few more, sure, but start with the one about papal infallibility and christian beliefs.