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no...you are not going to pull that switch on me.
you have equated "islam" (as in "islam's historic connection with the nazis") with arab exiles and you have further said that this minescule number of arab exiles have pervertedd islam (as in "islam's histoyic connection to the nazis") to their own ends.
furthermore, you have stated that this minescule amount of arab exciles were not successful in their attempts.
you have, rather successfully, proved exactly the opposite of what you set out to prove.
You are insane.
Because to think that just because this collaboration between Nazis and these high ranking Arab exiles didn't bear fruit, does not mean that the collaboration and the effort didn't exist.
There is no logic whatsoever in that. The collaboration existed. Thousands of broadcasts and thousands and thousands of pamphlets and leaflets.
Radio broadcasts wiki source
From wiki:
Matthias Küntzel has suggested that the decisive transfer of Jewish conspiracy theory took place between 1937 and 1945 under the impact of Nazi propaganda targeted at the Arab world.
According to Kuntzel, the Nazi Arabic radio service had a staff of 80 and broadcast every day in Arabic, stressing the similarities between Islam and Nazism and supported by the activities of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni (who broadcast pro-Nazi propaganda from Berlin).
The Nazi regime also provided funding to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which began calling for boycotts of Jewish businesses in 1936.
Bernard Lewis also describes Nazi influence in the Arab world, including its impact on Michel Aflaq (a Christian), the principal founder of ba'athist thought (which later dominated Syria and Iraq).
After the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws, Hitler received telegrams of congratulation from all over the Arab and Muslim world, especially from Morocco and Palestine, where the Nazi propaganda had been most active... ...
Before long political parties of the Nazi and Fascist type began to appear, complete with paramilitary youth organizations, colored shirts, strict discipline and more or less charismatic leaders
Antisemitism in the Arab world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
from the same source...
For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.[3]
While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has increased dramatically as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, and Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 were a severe humiliation to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Jews in the Middle East worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from most Arab and Muslim countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.[5]
the sword also means clean-ness+death. (el aurens. beidh ar la linn.)
you seem to be encountering some difficulty differentiating between the islamic faith and the arab thbicity
I would like to take a short break now Connery; when I return at 9pm I will begin to document the Nazi - Arab propaganda machinery.
you continue to cut the islamic world in half.
sixty seven percent, give or take, of christians believe in, or support, papal infallibility. the reason i asked that question is to get some sort of threshold as to what you consider support when the time comes, or has long past, for you to begin to quantify things.
Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
while we are here and as to your claim that you are only trying to show "islam's historical connection with hitler and the nazis" and your denials that you are not trying to show islam's support of the nazis...
"If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
we are in agreement at least with the "Good grief" portion of this discussion.
are you some sort of octopus? i mean, how many feet do you have left to shoot?
you are not proving a point. you are pursuing an agenda.
You are insane.
Because to think that just because this collaboration between Nazis and these high ranking Arab exiles didn't bear fruit, does not mean that the collaboration and the effort didn't exist.
There is no logic whatsoever in that. The collaboration existed. Thousands of broadcasts and thousands and thousands of pamphlets and leaflets.
Radio broadcasts wiki source
From wiki:
Matthias Küntzel has suggested that the decisive transfer of Jewish conspiracy theory took place between 1937 and 1945 under the impact of Nazi propaganda targeted at the Arab world.
According to Kuntzel, the Nazi Arabic radio service had a staff of 80 and broadcast every day in Arabic, stressing the similarities between Islam and Nazism and supported by the activities of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni (who broadcast pro-Nazi propaganda from Berlin).
The Nazi regime also provided funding to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which began calling for boycotts of Jewish businesses in 1936.
Bernard Lewis also describes Nazi influence in the Arab world, including its impact on Michel Aflaq (a Christian), the principal founder of ba'athist thought (which later dominated Syria and Iraq).
After the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws, Hitler received telegrams of congratulation from all over the Arab and Muslim world, especially from Morocco and Palestine, where the Nazi propaganda had been most active... ...
Before long political parties of the Nazi and Fascist type began to appear, complete with paramilitary youth organizations, colored shirts, strict discipline and more or less charismatic leaders
Antisemitism in the Arab world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
from the same source...
For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.[3]
While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has increased dramatically as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, and Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 were a severe humiliation to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Jews in the Middle East worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from most Arab and Muslim countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.[5]
the sword also means clean-ness+death. (el aurens. beidh ar la linn.)
you seem to be encountering some difficulty differentiating between the islamic faith and the arab thbicity
Not at all. I prefaced that link with Radio broadcasts. Remember? I'm laying the groundwork for the massive propaganda campaign?
The debate is not about antisemitism or where it comes from We know that it exists. And that both the Nazis and the Grand Mufti had anti jew sentiments.
That's just a fact.
from the same source...
For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.[3]
While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has increased dramatically as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, and Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 were a severe humiliation to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Jews in the Middle East worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from most Arab and Muslim countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.[5]
the sword also means clean-ness+death. (el aurens. beidh ar la linn.)
you seem to be encountering some difficulty differentiating between the islamic faith and the arab thbicity
Not at all. I prefaced that link with Radio broadcasts. Remember? I'm laying the groundwork for the massive propaganda campaign?
The debate is not about antisemitism or where it comes from We know that it exists. And that both the Nazis and the Grand Mufti had anti jew sentiments.
That's just a fact.
what you need to show me is that islam (50% + 1) supported the nazis. you are not even close.
what you have shown me is that a muslim cleric in cooperation with the nazis, failed to generate support in the muslim world for the nazis.
we are quantifying things now. do it.
and...it is your friggin' link on anti-semitism.
I would like to take a short break now Connery; when I return at 9pm I will begin to document the Nazi - Arab propaganda machinery.
you continue to cut the islamic world in half.
sixty seven percent, give or take, of christians believe in, or support, papal infallibility. the reason i asked that question is to get some sort of threshold as to what you consider support when the time comes, or has long past, for you to begin to quantify things.
Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
while we are here and as to your claim that you are only trying to show "islam's historical connection with hitler and the nazis" and your denials that you are not trying to show islam's support of the nazis...
"If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
we are in agreement at least with the "Good grief" portion of this discussion.
are you some sort of octopus? i mean, how many feet do you have left to shoot?
you are not proving a point. you are pursuing an agenda.
Accusing me of pursuing an agenda and now you have me working with Connery as my team member...
May I suggest you ask your therapist to up the voltage on your next visit.
You're nuts.
But I'll continue laying out the propaganda machine in my next post.
you continue to cut the islamic world in half.
sixty seven percent, give or take, of christians believe in, or support, papal infallibility. the reason i asked that question is to get some sort of threshold as to what you consider support when the time comes, or has long past, for you to begin to quantify things.
Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
while we are here and as to your claim that you are only trying to show "islam's historical connection with hitler and the nazis" and your denials that you are not trying to show islam's support of the nazis...
"If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
we are in agreement at least with the "Good grief" portion of this discussion.
are you some sort of octopus? i mean, how many feet do you have left to shoot?
you are not proving a point. you are pursuing an agenda.
Accusing me of pursuing an agenda and now you have me working with Connery as my team member...
May I suggest you ask your therapist to up the voltage on your next visit.
You're nuts.
But I'll continue laying out the propaganda machine in my next post.
aw yes. i would think an indication of nuttiness is when you tell connery on this thread that you are going to take a break.
you can lay out what you want. i want evidence that the muslim world supported the nazis, and not evidence that some muslims attempted unsucessfully to indocrinate othe muslims.
i need munbers now, not anacdotal and obscure tidbits.
50% + 1...and i am being extraordinarily generous given the fact that you do not think that 67% of christians does not constitute a a christian belief (support) of papal infallibillity.
Accusing me of pursuing an agenda and now you have me working with Connery as my team member...
May I suggest you ask your therapist to up the voltage on your next visit.
You're nuts.
But I'll continue laying out the propaganda machine in my next post.
aw yes. i would think an indication of nuttiness is when you tell connery on this thread that you are going to take a break.
you can lay out what you want. i want evidence that the muslim world supported the nazis, and not evidence that some muslims attempted unsucessfully to indocrinate othe muslims.
i need munbers now, not anacdotal and obscure tidbits.
50% + 1...and i am being extraordinarily generous given the fact that you do not think that 67% of christians does not constitute a a christian belief (support) of papal infallibillity.
One last time. I don't believe that the Muslim world supported the Nazis. You get nothing from me.
No matter how many times you repeat yourself you can't make it true.
what i will do is explain that al-husseini is a man who had fought for for arab/palestinian nationalism and against european colonialism since long before hitler rose to power and i will point out further that in al-husseini's "relationship" with hitler was based upon, as stated in his memoirs, the concept that "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" and that, as he conveyed to hitler when they met in 1941, that "'The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies... namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists'.[ it should be noted that "the Jews" he to whom he was referring were the recent european immigrants who were migrating to the region since the balfour letter. i will then suggest you not confuse what you seem to think as some sort of enthsiastic support with a pragmatic indifference.
aw yes. i would think an indication of nuttiness is when you tell connery on this thread that you are going to take a break.
you can lay out what you want. i want evidence that the muslim world supported the nazis, and not evidence that some muslims attempted unsucessfully to indocrinate othe muslims.
i need munbers now, not anacdotal and obscure tidbits.
50% + 1...and i am being extraordinarily generous given the fact that you do not think that 67% of christians does not constitute a a christian belief (support) of papal infallibillity.
One last time. I don't believe that the Muslim world supported the Nazis. You get nothing from me.
No matter how many times you repeat yourself you can't make it true.
you havee managed to not respond to hardly anything i have said, and that incudes the one about your "support" quote.
i cannot believe, at this point, that anyone is actually stupid enough to believe this "islam's historic connection to hitler and the nazis" is anything but a euphemism for "is;am's support of hitler and the nazis."
the only question you have answered is a question about papal infallibillity, a question i asked to establish some sort of threshold point becaause you have refused to quantify anything.
you have gone so far as to dismiss any analogy or refutation of anything i put forth as poppycock and meaningless, when many of those arguments are exact parrallels of yours.
i am beginning to think you do not even read my posts. you discuss/debate nothing at all. you lecture and are delivering an agenda.
One of the key things about this alliance between the Nazis and the exiled high ranking Arabs was of course the mutual hatred of the Allies and of Jews.
The common ground was there. Just needed to come together.
At the beginning of the war despite the imperial intent on the part of Italy in the middle east, the Nazis were sort of making a feeble effort to use propaganda to win the hearts and minds of the Arab community.
But nothing really took off in the propaganda division regarding the ME until the successes started mounting with the North African campaigns.
At the same time, you've got all these high ranking anti colonial exiled politicians showing up in Berlin after al Kilani's coup failure in Iraq.
The perfect propaganda storm was about to break loose. And on the Arab side of the propaganda machinery was Husseini. He was a gift to Hitler.
One of the best sources that I've come across is this fabulous book by Jeffrey Herf. Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World.
It's so well researched.
From a review:
In chapters 4 and 5 Herf charts the takeoff in Nazi-Arab cooperation that occurred with the expansion of Nazi military efforts to North Africa and the emigration to Nazi-dominated Europe of anti-colonial Arab politicians in the aftermath of Rashid Ali al-Kilani's failed coup in Iraq in the spring of 1941.
Of these émigrés, Haj Amin el-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to play a key role in facilitating a Nazi-Arab meeting of hearts and minds that resulted in an enormous German investment in constructing an Arab-exile/Nazi propaganda machine.
For the next four years, this propaganda machine conducted daily broadcasts and printed millions of leaflets to popularize a hybrid Nazi/Islamist vision of the course and meaning of the war as part of an elaborate conspiracy of "international Jewry" and expound upon the anti-Jewish, anti-Allied political tasks facing the Arab world (p. 170).
In the following chapters, Herf notes how propaganda and Muslim outreach was a weapon that a dying German imperialism continued to grasp and deploy with increasing ferocity (and even less effect) from 1943 until the end of the war.
Furthermore, el-Husseini and other Arab exiles stepped up their collaboration with the Nazis by aiding in the creation of SS (Schutzstaffel) units among Balkan Muslims and (less successfully) Allied Muslim POWs (prisoners of war).
Although Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, unsupported by the aura of Nazi military invincibility, had even less of a direct impact from 1943 onwards, it still alarmed official Anglo-American commentators in the Middle East, who reported on and attempted to track its effects while seeking to develop effective counter-propaganda.
These Anglo-American efforts both to fathom and influence "the Arab" and his (apparently undifferentiated) responses to Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, particularly its antisemitic virulence, are quite revealing (p. 76).
H-Net Reviews
Jeffrey Herf.
Jeffrey Herf.
i read a lot of irish history. the most objective irish history book i have ever read, in observation and opinion, was written by an italian.
when people write about their own histories, there is usually an inherent bias.
One of the key things about this alliance between the Nazis and the exiled high ranking Arabs was of course the mutual hatred of the Allies and of Jews.
The common ground was there. Just needed to come together.
At the beginning of the war despite the imperial intent on the part of Italy in the middle east, the Nazis were sort of making a feeble effort to use propaganda to win the hearts and minds of the Arab community.
But nothing really took off in the propaganda division regarding the ME until the successes started mounting with the North African campaigns.
At the same time, you've got all these high ranking anti colonial exiled politicians showing up in Berlin after al Kilani's coup failure in Iraq.
The perfect propaganda storm was about to break loose. And on the Arab side of the propaganda machinery was Husseini. He was a gift to Hitler.
One of the best sources that I've come across is this fabulous book by Jeffrey Herf. Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World.
It's so well researched.
From a review:
In chapters 4 and 5 Herf charts the takeoff in Nazi-Arab cooperation that occurred with the expansion of Nazi military efforts to North Africa and the emigration to Nazi-dominated Europe of anti-colonial Arab politicians in the aftermath of Rashid Ali al-Kilani's failed coup in Iraq in the spring of 1941.
Of these émigrés, Haj Amin el-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to play a key role in facilitating a Nazi-Arab meeting of hearts and minds that resulted in an enormous German investment in constructing an Arab-exile/Nazi propaganda machine.
For the next four years, this propaganda machine conducted daily broadcasts and printed millions of leaflets to popularize a hybrid Nazi/Islamist vision of the course and meaning of the war as part of an elaborate conspiracy of "international Jewry" and expound upon the anti-Jewish, anti-Allied political tasks facing the Arab world (p. 170).
In the following chapters, Herf notes how propaganda and Muslim outreach was a weapon that a dying German imperialism continued to grasp and deploy with increasing ferocity (and even less effect) from 1943 until the end of the war.
Furthermore, el-Husseini and other Arab exiles stepped up their collaboration with the Nazis by aiding in the creation of SS (Schutzstaffel) units among Balkan Muslims and (less successfully) Allied Muslim POWs (prisoners of war).
Although Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, unsupported by the aura of Nazi military invincibility, had even less of a direct impact from 1943 onwards, it still alarmed official Anglo-American commentators in the Middle East, who reported on and attempted to track its effects while seeking to develop effective counter-propaganda.
These Anglo-American efforts both to fathom and influence "the Arab" and his (apparently undifferentiated) responses to Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, particularly its antisemitic virulence, are quite revealing (p. 76).
H-Net Reviews
islam is more than arabs.
i want to know, with numbers, what percentage of the islamic world supported the nazis.
to claim that your "historical connection" does not equate to support is a blatant, bald faced lie as you have not mentioned any positive things muslims had done to protect the jews from the nazis...not to mention you have admitted it...
AGAIN!!!
"If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
fine though. i concede your argument that some small group of muslims under the direction of the nazi propaganda machine, waged a minimal, unsuccessul, and insignificant campaign in an attempt to sway muslims to hitler's side.
and by the same token,lets use lord haw-haw as evidence of britains historical connection (aka support) with the nazis.
Its a line from good morning vietnam.
