Is There Such A Thing As "Right" And "Wrong?"

[Not2BSubjugated]

Recognizing there are consequences to our actions doesn't mean we want people to face those consequences. Quite the opposite. Most of us are inviting people to avoid those consequences through Repentence.

As for San Fran, there are still righteous among them.

Sorry to burst your bubble on this, bud, but when you say that, "If God doesn't give it to this country, he owes an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah", and it's well known that you are a strong Christian and therefore you support the actions of your God, the inescapable implication is that you want God to smite this country. The fact that one would reference Sodom and Gomorrah in particular implies that their wish for the smiting of America is based on the US's perceived propensity for "amoral" (gross) sex.

You can't tell me that the statement in question was anything but vicious, and whoever quoted it is a sadistic, self-righteous motherfucker, just like its originator.

In fact, anybody who believes that a just God would eradicate people for gross sex that is victimless is pretty fuckin sadistic to begin with.

Here's a short list of "things I want" relating to your post:

1) I want everyone to turn to Jesus Christ with a contrite and humble heart; repent of their sins; follow His example; and witness the Kingdom of God.
2) I want God's will to be done in all things.
3) I want to live in a world free of fear, pain, tears, and evil.

But I want these things remembering that what I want is miniscule in comparison to what God wants. His will -- not mine -- be done.

On the one hand, I believe what the Bible says about God. I believe that He's cleansed this earth in the past and that He promises to cleanse it in the future. We shall have a "New Heaven" and a "New Earth" whether anyone likes it or not. So there's no changing that. But I also believe what the Bible says about who the ultimate Judge is and it ain't me. Every person will stand before Him as He reads their entire lives back to them.

All fine and good. If you're not rooting for God to blow people up, then I wasn't talking about you.

Clearly, Mrs. Billy Graham is a different brand of Christian from you, which doesn't surprise me. The fact that you're here, unpaid, spreading your faith, only implies that you wish to share what you believe to be the truth. That fact that you have nothing to gain and that Christians generally believe that spreading their faith is beneficial to those who receive it says to me that your motives are ultimately altruistic. The same seems to be true of Avatar.

As for Mrs. Billy Graham, there appears to be a bloodlust present in her worship that I find highly perturbing, and I'm hoping that Irish Ram wasn't implying by quoting her that there was any philosophical merit to that bloodlust. I find it highly, highly fortunate that Christians like Mrs. Graham are the minority, these days. These are the same kinda pricks that were burning people at the stake back in Spain.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Yep- That's what makes a nut case whacked out lib a lib

They can't tell the difference between right and wrong. For real- It's a disease for which there is often no cure.

-Geaux

What appears to be the general consensus amongst the majority of liberals is that "right and wrong" can morph into whatever they want it to be on any given day. What's right today is wrong tomorrow. It's wrong to kill a 10 month old human life (one month old baby) but it's perfectly fine to kill an 8 month old human life (a month before birth).

It's okay to send drones to kill enemies that Obama doesn't like but it's wrong to put violent, murderous, sadistic murderers to death if they are black.

The hypocrisy abounds within the Liberal community.

As opposed to WHAT, exactly?

Your opinion of right from wrong?!?

​

See how that works?

In 10,000 year old games without winners, played by all who understand death, the Monkey who dies with the most toys still dies, and the world still awaits the first Monkey to prove that their God exists, thus establishing actual 'moral high ground'.

​

 

[The Irish Ram]

Billy Graham and his wife have devoted their lives to the service of Christ. Billy Graham has lead more people to Christ than anyone since Christ. His place at God's table is secure. Any faults either Billy Graham or his wife had, Christ already dealt with on the cross. And throngs of those saved by his good works and have passed on before him will welcome him home with resounding applause.

Mrs. Graham was referring to the rapid moral decay in this country, not hoping for our demise.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Or maybe, just maybe, Monkeys are smart enough in general to understand "right from wrong" based on the simple fact of being able to imagine what it's like to be treated cruelly.

Monkeys being able to imagine what it is like to be treated cruelly, should prevent it don't you think? Does the fact that we imagine it and then act on it tell you we need someone other than monkey to show us a better way to treat each other?

We are assuming that knowing right from wrong leads to acting right, because we know better. Knowledge of good and evil doesn't prevent us from choosing evil.

It's two different things. How many times have you known an act or thought was 'wrong' by some standard and did it or thought it any way?

Correcting bad behavior doesn't require a knowledge of right and wrong, just an understanding of consequences.

Monkeys ARE different. Monkeys can imagine, empathize and relate. Monkeys can also be cruel, greedy and selfish, but Monkeys in 2014 are still pretty close on The Timeline to the bloody, dog-eat-dog soup that spawned us.

To the next thousand years!​

Have you kids reached the stars yet?

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Billy Graham and his wife have devoted their lives to the service of Christ. Billy Graham has lead more people to Christ than anyone since Christ. His place at God's table is secure. Any faults either Billy Graham or his wife had, Christ already dealt with on the cross. And throngs of those saved by his good works and have passed on before him will welcome him home with resounding applause.

Mrs. Graham was referring to the rapid moral decay in this country, not hoping for our demise.

I don't care what Billy Graham did for Christ or what the bible says about whether or not they'll be forgiven by God. That's not what I was discussing at all.

Also, Mrs. Graham -was- in fact implying hope for the demise of USA. Her devotion to the bible implies support of God's will. God's will included the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and support of that will implies support of that destruction.

If you support that destruction, and you feel that America is as corrupt or more so even than those two cities (which she does feel, as implied by saying that God would owe the priors an apology for not dealing with America in the same manner), then you support a will that, in order to be consistent, would smite the US.

This implies that you are hopeful for God to smite the US.

You paint it up any way you want, and excuse the sadism because Christ died to excuse her for it. That doesn't mean the sadism doesn't exist.

That doesn't make her any less sadistic than anyone else who wishes death upon those who live in a way that they deem to be inappropriate.

That doesn't make her any less blood thirsty than a fundamentalist Muslim who doesn't participate, but sympathizes with terrorism.

That doesn't make her any less blood thirsty than the angry atheist who makes impotent statements that the Christians should be eradicated.

It just means she'll eventually be forgiven for being an impotently blood thirsty monstrosity of a human being.

 

[emilynghiem]

Conversely, if we have to create gods in our imagination, that means there are no gods?

No. If you make God's of your own imagination that means they are part of your imagination.

Man created god in his imagination and projected him into the real world, through various depictions, descriptions, etc.

It goes both ways.
There are also universal / natural laws that man did NOT create,
and it is just the systems of representation that are created on man's level.

So this is a reflection of "self-existent" truth or laws of the universe which
"God" represents as the source or the collective body of all things in life.

 

[emilynghiem]

Nice generalizing insults with zero added to the discussion.

Now... define 'right and wrong'.

Whether people are consistent or inconsistent
with their own self-proclaimed principles.

For example in math, once we agree that 1 + 1 = 2
then we can prove that writing 1 + 1 = 3 is inconsistent
with how we defined 1 + 1 to equal 2 instead of 3.

I have found that for any thing deemed to be "wrong"
there is a way to explain it to each person where it
shows a "conflict" with THEIR system so they can see it is relatively wrong from their perspective

most ppl make the mistake of proving things from "their own standards" (which the other person may not even follow)
but failing to explain how this same error is inconsistent with the other person's beliefs which would make sense to them.

(the other common error is "projection", where there is equal
error "wherever this same problem occurs in ANY system,"
but people are too busy blaming "the other person's system"
so the arguments gets sidetracked or derailed over agenda.)

 

[The Irish Ram]

Pure garbage.
Telling someone smoking causes cancer is a warning for them, not a hope that they die of cancer.
Telling a child they'll get burned if they touch a hot burner is imparting understanding of the consequences of flesh on hot burners, so that the child will NOT suffer harm.
Mrs. Graham wasn't the first or only person that has watched the morals in this country plummet. She had the guts to put it in Biblical perspective. And she is right.

Here is what America looked like under God:
The most powerful nation on earth.
The richest nation on earth.
The most enlightened nation on earth.
The most charitable nation on earth.
The most blessed nation on earth.
The most scholastic nation on earth.
The most loved nation on earth.

And then we kicked Him out. Now in order to elevate our selves to our former glory, we need a trampoline......

 

[The Irish Ram]

Nice generalizing insults with zero added to the discussion.

Now... define 'right and wrong'.

Whether people are consistent or inconsistent
with their own self-proclaimed principles.

For example in math, once we agree that 1 + 1 = 2
then we can prove that writing 1 + 1 = 3 is inconsistent
with how we defined 1 + 1 to equal 2 instead of 3.

^
And then we tossed every bit of what you just posted out the window with God, and told our children that:
0 + 0 = 1, and that's what created the universe.
Nothing + nothing = something is our mantra now.

 

[DriftingSand]

Pure garbage.
Telling someone smoking causes cancer is a warning for them, not a hope that they die of cancer.
Telling a child they'll get burned if they touch a hot burner is imparting understanding of the consequences of flesh on hot burners, so that the child will NOT suffer harm.
Mrs. Graham wasn't the first or only person that has watched the morals in this country plummet. She had the guts to put it in Biblical perspective. And she is right.

Here is what America looked like under God:
The most powerful nation on earth.
The richest nation on earth.
The most enlightened nation on earth.
The most charitable nation on earth.
The most blessed nation on earth.
The most scholastic nation on earth.
The most loved nation on earth.

And then we kicked Him out. Now in order to elevate our selves to our former glory, we need a trampoline......

Many folks don't understand the concept of "tough love." My dad had to spank me from time to time to correct poor behavior. Ultimately, he did it for my benefit.

Today's America in no way, shape, or form mirrors the America "under God." It's a sad sight but a caterpillar has to die before giving way to a butterfly. Under Christ, all things will become restored -- better yet -- new.

 

[DriftingSand]

Nice generalizing insults with zero added to the discussion.

Now... define 'right and wrong'.

Whether people are consistent or inconsistent
with their own self-proclaimed principles.

For example in math, once we agree that 1 + 1 = 2
then we can prove that writing 1 + 1 = 3 is inconsistent
with how we defined 1 + 1 to equal 2 instead of 3.

^
And then we tossed every bit of what you just posted out the window with God, and told our children that:
0 + 0 = 1, and that's what created the universe.
Nothing + nothing = something is our mantra now.

Which, of course, makes zero logical or "scientific" sense whatsoever.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Who needs God telling us right from wrong when we can imagine a mile in another Monkeys moccasins?

"Imagine" - John Lennon - YouTube

If we have to imagine there is no God then that means there is a God.

Conversely, if we have to create gods in our imagination, that means there are no gods?

If we created our God, then we are responsible for the prophecy that accompanies our imagination. So that means King David made up crucifixion 1,000 years before it existed. Noah's thoughts produced a world wide flood, and the Jews willed Israel into existence through wishful thinking. And now we are imagining a unification of Europe, all nations coming against Israel, a false peace treaty being forced on Israel, and Soros only thinks he's priming a one world president.

 

[emilynghiem]

And then we tossed every bit of what you just posted out the window with God, and told our children that:
0 + 0 = 1, and that's what created the universe.
Nothing + nothing = something is our mantra now.

I think what went wrong
is instead of sticking with what
symbols we use to express 1 + 1 = 2

We started fighting over WHO invented this math system anyway?

Isn't it excluding other cultures? it is part of a Whitey control game?
and do we judge people unfairly without giving them equal
access to learn the rules and pass the same math tests of others.

Do we acknowledge that our numbers came from the ARABIC system?
etc etc etc.

PS. as for God/Jesus, these can be aligned as variables also.
"God" can mean Wisdom, Love, Life, Universal Laws, Goodwill for all, Collective Truth
"Jesus" means salvation or Justice for All whether projected as restorative or retributive approaches,
where the same spirit of Truth and Justice
fulfills laws by nature or secular govt, or laws by scriptural authority.
"Christian" means of to be of good conscience, to take the laws of Justice to heart by conscience,
and "Christianity" means "equal charity" for all. We can map out the values and decide which variables mean which concepts.

When we stop freaking out over who has more control, influence, or authority over others,
maybe we can sit down and figure out what "variable" stands for what, what we believe,
and how our beliefs align instead of flipping out that we come from different backgrounds.

We should at least be as "neutral" as mathematicians or scientists
who just want the systems of equations to be consistent with each other. What a mess!

 

[emilynghiem]

If we have to imagine there is no God then that means there is a God.

Conversely, if we have to create gods in our imagination, that means there are no gods?

If we created our God, then we are responsible for the prophecy that accompanies our imagination. So that means King David made up crucifiction 1,000 years before it existed. Noah's thoughts produced a world wide flood, and the Jews willed Israel into existence through wishful thinking. And now we are imagining a unification of Europe, all nations coming against Israel, a false peace treaty being forced on Israel, and Soros only thinks He's priming a one world president.

That's a lot of work to create all the things God stands for!

No wonder Buddha smiled and remained silent when first
asked to share this wonderful wisdom he had received.
That's a lot of responsibility to explain how the laws of the universe are interconnected as given,
much less make it all up on the spot!

Amazing how Buddha and Jesus could make up parallel teachings
600 years apart. The two promises in Buddhism (that all other teachings are based)
"to develop perfect Wisdom" and develop "perfect Compassion"
align with the two great commandments in Christianity
about "love of God" and "love of neighbor" that all the laws and prophets are based.

Just lucky that those two must have read each other's minds and
made that up to match so perfectly.

We can't even get our two major parties to sit in the same room
and align using the same Constitution written in the same language.

And these two men were centuries apart, and never met each other!
;-)

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hey Drift, lol at getting spanked. My Dad's rule was if I got spanked at school, expect another one when I got home. I got spanked almost every day, twice! The other was slamming my bedroom door if I was told to go to my room. When I slammed that door, I knew Daddy was going to be in that room in 2 seconds, spanking my butt again for direct defiance and yet I slammed it every single time. He'd look at me like, "Are you nuts?" But when he turned me over his knee, with the first little tap, I'd start to cry and he was done. He'd hug me and tell me to stop doing stupid shit. He was such a wonderful father is all regards, that I can thank him for the insight I have toward my Father in Heaven. The degree of my Dad's love for me was hard to comprehend considering.......
That I have another Daddy that loves me even more makes me dance with joy.

And your post is exactly what my sweet Daddy told me when I lamented the state of this once great country. Thanks for that. :hugs:

 

[DriftingSand]

Hey Drift, lol at getting spanked. My Dad's rule was if I got spanked at school, expect another one when I got home. I got spanked almost every day, twice! The other was slamming my bedroom door if I was told to go to my room. When I slammed that door, I knew Daddy was going to be in that room in 2 seconds, spanking my butt again for direct defiance and yet I slammed it every single time. He'd look at me like, "Are you nuts?" But when he turned me over his knee, with the first little tap, I'd start to cry and he was done. He'd hug me and tell me to stop doing stupid shit. He was such a wonderful father is all regards, that I can thank him for the insight I have toward my Father in Heaven. The degree of my Dad's love for me was hard to comprehend considering.......
That I have a Father that loves me even more makes me dance with joy.

And your post is exactly what my sweet Daddy told me when I lamented the state of this once great country. Thanks for that. :hugs:

I generally followed the rules but had my share of spankings when I had them coming. Especially for teasing or being mean to my sister. I slammed a door a couple of times but learned pretty quick not to do that. I had a tendency to be more defiant when only my mom was home. I got worse as I aged to the point that I was out of control by the time I was 15-18 years old. I moved away at 18 and got into drugs and booze. Then straightened up at 25.

 

[emilynghiem]

Which, of course, makes zero logical or "scientific" sense whatsoever.

I think it is more like arguing
if the whole of God's knowledge is infinite anyway
who is say THEIR number system of assigning 1, 2 and 3 is guaranteed as accurate?

There is no way man can define or count infinite knowledge and laws.

What is missed is the point of the variables
is to express RELATIONSHIPS between them.

We CAN know basic patterns that apply
even though the applications are infinite.

(the other argument is when any religious groups, particular Christians who are more visible and vocal than others, starts JUDGING other people for not following their language.
Instead of explaining it as a neutral system that aligns with Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, etc. Christians have a bad reputation for imposing it using the Bible or ways that "don't make sense" to people and then judging and blaming for not getting the meaning.)

 

[The Irish Ram]

At our very worst we were loved the most. God, bless us all.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hey Drift, lol at getting spanked. My Dad's rule was if I got spanked at school, expect another one when I got home. I got spanked almost every day, twice! The other was slamming my bedroom door if I was told to go to my room. When I slammed that door, I knew Daddy was going to be in that room in 2 seconds, spanking my butt again for direct defiance and yet I slammed it every single time. He'd look at me like, "Are you nuts?" But when he turned me over his knee, with the first little tap, I'd start to cry and he was done. He'd hug me and tell me to stop doing stupid shit. He was such a wonderful father is all regards, that I can thank him for the insight I have toward my Father in Heaven. The degree of my Dad's love for me was hard to comprehend considering.......
That I have a Father that loves me even more makes me dance with joy.

And your post is exactly what my sweet Daddy told me when I lamented the state of this once great country. Thanks for that. :hugs:

I generally followed the rules but had my share of spankings when I had them coming. Especially for teasing or being mean to my sister. I slammed a door a couple of times but learned pretty quick not to do that. I had a tendency to be more defiant when only my mom was home. I got worse as I aged to the point that I was out of control by the time I was 15-18 years old. I moved away at 18 and got into drugs and booze. Then straightened up at 25.

I remember traumatizing incidents where I got punished at home, and at school,
for not watching my "free speech" in the classroom.

Despite having the best mentors and friends, I still haven't learned my lesson,
though I am constantly being "schooled."

Just have to learn the hard way, by going too far and finding out what works or doesn't.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I'm sorry you were traumatized Em. I had a youth group and the only time those kids were ever touched by their parents was to be beaten. I told them they had a Father in Heaven, and they would actually clench their fists. No child should be traumatized. Christ held children on His lap. He holds us in the palm of His scarred hand.