Is the MARXIST PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM we use immoral?

[Natural Citizen]

Yes. The Income Tax is immoral because it is based on the assumption that the government owns you, controls you, owns 100% of your income, and provides the conditions on which they allow you to keep a certain percentage.

Now. The real unconstitutionality of it is the way that they collect it. The Individual is presumed guilty by the IRS until proven innocent and you have to prove your innocence before the IRS. This assumption patently disregards the 6th Amendment.

 

[ColonelAngus]

In common law, a progressive income tax predates Karl Marx's birth by a hundred years.

The US had a progressive income tax in place decades before the Communist Manifesto was printed.

Yes, and Karl marx agrees.

Why does Marx need to predate the law to be Marxist.

I am not sure how the TIMELINE makes it fair..

There were "DRACONIAN" laws before the existence of "DRACO".

What you are arguing is, "WELL, OUR LAWS ARE NOT DRACONIAN BECAUSE THEY EXISTED BEFORE DRACO!!!"


Allow me to repeat because it bears repeating:

THE PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM WE USE IN AMERICA IS MARXIST AND IS COMMUNIST.

 

[boedicca]

With the exception of Russia

Almost every industrialized country uses a progressive tax structure

A lot of countries still practice slavery, too.

 

[ColonelAngus]

Yes. The Income Tax is immoral because it is based on the assumption that the government owns you, controls you, owns 100% of your income, and provides the conditions on which they allow you to keep a certain percentage.

Now. The real unconstitutionality of it is the way that they collect it. The Individual is presumed guilty by the IRS until proven innocent and you have to prove your innocence before the IRS. This assumption patently disregards the 6th Amendment.

This is exactly correct.

The PARADIGM of the government is that it's THEIR MONEY and they ALLOW you to keep some of it.

If you don't believe me....try not paying the MINIMUM amount of taxes the government tells you to....see what happens.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

In common law, a progressive income tax predates Karl Marx's birth by a hundred years.

The US had a progressive income tax in place decades before the Communist Manifesto was printed.

Yes, and Karl marx agrees.

Why does Marx need to predate the law to be Marxist.

I am not sure how the TIMELINE makes it fair..

There were "DRACONIAN" laws before the existence of "DRACO".

What you are arguing is, "WELL, OUR LAWS ARE NOT DRACONIAN BECAUSE THEY EXISTED BEFORE DRACO!!!"


Allow me to repeat because it bears repeating:

THE PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM WE USE IN AMERICA IS MARXIST AND IS COMMUNIST.

Hitler loved the Boy Scouts so much that he modeled the Hitler Youth on them.

By your logic, does that make the Boy Scouts Nazis?

 

[Tehon]

Is it moral to force people who earn more money to pay progressively higher RATES of taxes?

Should the "WEALTHY" also pay higher sales tax? Would that also be moral?

if you are a millionaire, should you pay $100 for a loaf of bread? Would that be fair and moral?

KARL MARX wrote our tax code, essentially.

Let's look at the 10 planks of MARXISM...doesn't this sound like every Prog you hear crying.... "THE RICH SHOULD PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE!!!"

The Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx

1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.

The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Managementproperty taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..




2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.




3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .




4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.




5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.




6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.

In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industiral complex.




7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

While the U.S. does not have vast "collective farms" (which failed so miserably in the Soviet Union), we nevertheless do have a significant degree of government involvement in agriculture in the form of price support subsidies and acreage alotments and land-use controls. The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.




8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.




9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.




10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" .

Thomas Jefferson was a Marxist, roughly 60 years before Marx.

Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise.
To James Madison Fontainebleau, Oct. 28, 1785 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

 

[ColonelAngus]

Is it moral to force people who earn more money to pay progressively higher RATES of taxes?

Should the "WEALTHY" also pay higher sales tax? Would that also be moral?

if you are a millionaire, should you pay $100 for a loaf of bread? Would that be fair and moral?

KARL MARX wrote our tax code, essentially.

Let's look at the 10 planks of MARXISM...doesn't this sound like every Prog you hear crying.... "THE RICH SHOULD PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE!!!"

The Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx

1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.

The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Managementproperty taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..




2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.




3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .




4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.




5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.




6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.

In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industiral complex.




7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

While the U.S. does not have vast "collective farms" (which failed so miserably in the Soviet Union), we nevertheless do have a significant degree of government involvement in agriculture in the form of price support subsidies and acreage alotments and land-use controls. The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.




8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.




9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.




10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" .

Thomas Jefferson was a Marxist.

Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise.
To James Madison Fontainebleau, Oct. 28, 1785 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

How is that possible? TJ was alive before MARX.

You are contradicting your previous argument.

I liked somethings TJ did, there are things I might not agree with.

If he advocated for the progressive tax plan, I don't agree with him. it's immoral.

Should "THE RICH" pay more for everything, just to be fair?

 

[BlackSand]

.​

I don't know about immoral ... But suggesting it is somehow fair is fricken laughable ... ​

.​

 

[Tehon]

How is that possible?

It's not. That's the point. Not everyone that believes in a progressive tax system is a Marxist. Thread fail.

Should "THE RICH" pay more for everything, just to be fair?

No, not everything. Higher taxes, yes.

 

[rightwinger]

The Progressive Tax system is inherently immoral. By taxing a higher ratio of the labor of some more than others, it basically says that some people own less of their own lives.

Everyone is taxed the same

Every dollar is not taxed the same

B'loney. If one person turns over 10% of his time to the government in taxes, and someone else has to work 50% to pay his tax bill, that is not THE SAME.

Each person pays the same tax rate

The first $20,000 a billionaire makes is taxed at the same rate as a poor person

 

[rightwinger]

.​

I don't know about immoral ... But suggesting it is somehow fair is fricken laughable ... ​

.​

Of course it is fair
The wealthy benefit so much more from our society

 

[boedicca]

The Progressive Tax system is inherently immoral. By taxing a higher ratio of the labor of some more than others, it basically says that some people own less of their own lives.

Everyone is taxed the same

Every dollar is not taxed the same

B'loney. If one person turns over 10% of his time to the government in taxes, and someone else has to work 50% to pay his tax bill, that is not THE SAME.

Each person pays the same tax rate

The first $20,000 a billionaire makes is taxed at the same rate as a poor person

Money is a construct invented by humans. Each person only has 24 hours in the day. Progressive taxation takes more time away from some people than it does from others. That is a form of slavery.

 

[DGS49]

The ultimate question for "fairness" in tax is this: Is there some finite amount of money that one could pay in Federal Income tax that, in your view, would be ENOUGH?

Is it $100,000? A million? A billion?

A leftist cannot provide the number. A leftist cannot acknowledge that the obligation to financially support the government can have a limit.

Thus, rational discussion is impossible, and efforts to "argue" the issue of tax fairness are pointless.

 

[g5000]

Is it moral to force people who earn more money to pay progressively higher RATES of taxes?

Gosh, I don't know! Let's ask an American conservative hero:

Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.

Equality: Thomas Jefferson to James Madison

 

[Tehon]

The ultimate question for "fairness" in tax is this: Is there some finite amount of money that one could pay in Federal Income tax that, in your view, would be ENOUGH?

Is it $100,000? A million? A billion?

A leftist cannot provide the number. A leftist cannot acknowledge that the obligation to financially support the government can have a limit.

Thus, rational discussion is impossible, and efforts to "argue" the issue of tax fairness are pointless.

Why would there need to be a finite amount of money one could be taxed unless there was also a finite amount of money one could acquire?

 

[g5000]

The property of this country is absolutely concentered in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards. These employ the flower of the country as servants, some of them having as many as 200 domestics, not labouring. They employ also a great number of manufacturers, and tradesmen, and lastly the class of labouring husbandmen. But after all these comes the most numerous of all the classes, that is, the poor who cannot find work. I asked myself what could be the reason that so many should be permitted to beg who are willing to work, in a country where there is a very considerable proportion of uncultivated lands? These lands are kept idle mostly for the aske of game. It should seem then that it must be because of the enormous wealth of the proprietors which places them above attention to the increase of their revenues by permitting these lands to be laboured. I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. - Thomas Jefferson

 

[rightwinger]

The Progressive Tax system is inherently immoral. By taxing a higher ratio of the labor of some more than others, it basically says that some people own less of their own lives.

Everyone is taxed the same

Every dollar is not taxed the same

B'loney. If one person turns over 10% of his time to the government in taxes, and someone else has to work 50% to pay his tax bill, that is not THE SAME.

Each person pays the same tax rate

The first $20,000 a billionaire makes is taxed at the same rate as a poor person

Money is a construct invented by humans. Each person only has 24 hours in the day. Progressive taxation takes more time away from some people than it does from others. That is a form of slavery.

Most absurd argument I have ever heard

 

[ColonelAngus]

I don't care if Jefferson wanted a progressive tax plan.

Isn't he a POS slave owner who should have all of his statues removed?

Why would I want to follow the tax plan of a RACIST!!

Does ANYONE remember CHARLOTTESVILLE?

Thomas Jefferson fucked his slaves. His tax plan must be bad and racist.

 

[boedicca]

The Progressive Tax system is inherently immoral. By taxing a higher ratio of the labor of some more than others, it basically says that some people own less of their own lives.

Everyone is taxed the same

Every dollar is not taxed the same

B'loney. If one person turns over 10% of his time to the government in taxes, and someone else has to work 50% to pay his tax bill, that is not THE SAME.

Each person pays the same tax rate

The first $20,000 a billionaire makes is taxed at the same rate as a poor person

Money is a construct invented by humans. Each person only has 24 hours in the day. Progressive taxation takes more time away from some people than it does from others. That is a form of slavery.

Most absurd argument I have ever heard

That's because you don't value individual rights and autonomy.

 

[rightwinger]

The ultimate question for "fairness" in tax is this: Is there some finite amount of money that one could pay in Federal Income tax that, in your view, would be ENOUGH?

Is it $100,000? A million? A billion?

A leftist cannot provide the number. A leftist cannot acknowledge that the obligation to financially support the government can have a limit.

Thus, rational discussion is impossible, and efforts to "argue" the issue of tax fairness are pointless.

Of course it can't have a limit

Why should it?
Only if we limit how much you can earn