Is it time to pull out?

[rtwngAvngr]

So what, exactly, do you invision us doing when we "take the gloves off"?

Leaflet the sunni triangle saying you have 72 hours to get out, then we're carpet bombing the whole thing into dust. The terrorists will either be caught while leaving or they will be turned into dust.

 

[Gunny]

But will accidently killing innocent civilians due to a change of rules which allow him more leeway in fighting terrorists help him win and help him come home alive?

There's a point of diminishing returns when fighting an insurgency when it comes to brutalism. And, yes, the guy fighting over there doesn't have the luxury I have to spend time philosophizing about it. At what point is the balance even between killing terrorists and the colateral damage of accidently killing civilians? We can look at previous wars including our own Revolution for instances where excessively brutality (for lack of a better word) caused a fervor unteneble by the those who were brutal. Heck, Tarleton's main disaster was against soldiers and he still raised such a ruckus that we were able to raise three armies to fight Cornwallis in the south.

I don't where the point of diminishing returns is reached. Honestly, I don't know. But, somebody should probably figure it out... soon.

I have not suggested that killing more civilians, accidentally or otherwise, as a solution to anything. Civilians living in a war zone get killed. Misfotunes of war. As you point out, civilian casualties turn the civilian populace against us.

And isn't it odd that even though the terrorists/insurgents/what have you TARGET civilians as a practice, it causes nothing but an occasional ripple within the populace? But if a US troop so much as bends a prisoner's eyelash, the wolfpack descends.

I could not tell you what the point of diminishing return is, but don't think there isn't some pencil-necked geek in DC with a calculator and slide-rule who has it all figured out.

 

[Gunny]

So what, exactly, do you invision us doing when we "take the gloves off"?

I don't "envision" doing anything. I'm all for getting their government on line, and miltary and police trained up as soon as possible and getting us the Hell out of what has become another Nation's internal struggle.

I think we are there for the right reasons, and have gone about it the wrong way, starting with politicians making decisions based on political idealism and political correctness instead of the reality of who and what they are dealing with.

 

[jasendorf]

I have not suggested that killing more civilians, accidentally or otherwise, as a solution to anything. Civilians living in a war zone get killed. Misfotunes of war. As you point out, civilian casualties turn the civilian populace against us.

It's that collateral damage that hurts us, our image (which, no matter what anyone wants to believe, is imperative in winning against an insurgency) and ultimately the mission. I fully understand that collateral damage is a result of war. And, I accept that. Maybe where we're not communicating well here is what the definition of "taking off the gloves" is. I mean, is there anyone here who thinks that troops have been told not to kill terrorists and insurgents?

And isn't it odd that even though the terrorists/insurgents/what have you TARGET civilians as a practice, it causes nothing but an occasional ripple within the populace? But if a US troop so much as bends a prisoner's eyelash, the wolfpack descends.

I find it odd. But, I don't find it particularly surprising. History is rife with examples of insurgencies where the insurgents were brutal with a portion of their own populations and continued to gain strength due to it. The trick is to kill those who are **just enough** different that your supporters don't think of it as killing "their own." One example is the scapegoating of German Jews by the Nazis. Another would be the murder of "collaborators" by the Viet Cong during Vietnam. Hell, even we killed those labelled as loyalists during our own Revolution.

I could not tell you what the point of diminishing return is, but don't think there isn't some pencil-necked geek in DC with a calculator and slide-rule who has it all figured out.

I wish he'd start using a computer because he sure is missing the calculations I think.

 

[shepherdboy]

In essence gunny you want to stoop to their level. I disagree, our values are what in my opinion makes us better than them. If we stoop to their level we lose who we are and we in turn become no better than them. Do you want us to recruit suicide bombers as well who will blow themselves up to take out some iraqis ?

Why oh why are we fighting a war with political correctness in mind? Do people forget what the neighborhoods of Germany and Japan looked like after a battle? The current U.S. Military is one of the very few Nations that puts its political correctness ahead of its Military personal well being. How can we fight a war with such restrictions and look for a easy victory? Just read this clip-FORT MEADE, Maryland - A military jury sentenced an Army dog handler to 90 days hard labor and a reduction in rank Friday for allowing his Belgian shepherd to bark within inches of an Iraqi detainee's face at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. People! What in the hell are we doing to our soldiers? The press attacks them daily. The leadership in Government is leaderless. The average Joe on the street has no clue to what really is going on in Iraq. People go about their lives like we are not fighting anyone. Gone are the days of WW2 and most of the people who fought and won those battles. That generation understood warfare and how hard and bloody it is to achieve victory. I wish my Dad was still around.

 

[NATO AIR]

Here's the problem.

We went into Iraq ignoring the lessons of war that have been written in rivers of blood for centuries. We showcased a general ignorance of basic geography, history and religion. We failed EVERY single litmus test there was for effective, competent administration as an occupying authority; not enough security, not enough support, not enough infastructure restoration, not enough popular diversion (i.e. useful busy work to keep idling young men from organizing into militias and gangs). We botched this whole deal, from Day One. The military, the politicians, the Iraqis....... everybody. No one has clean hands, everyone is responsible.

Critics of critics of the war say we have no patience, that "these things take time". What these people, who are often the same ones in the above paragraph (lacking a reasonable grasp of Iraqi politics, geography, history and religion) ignore is that things are much different in the 21st century. Whereas in the 20th century of WW2 you could have had ten-fifteen years to rebuild Iraq, you only have 2-3 years now.

Why?

The peril of high expectations. Iraqis can watch on their satellites and talk on their cellphones with people who live in Turkey, Britain, Germany or America, where life is normally long and prosperous, whereas theirs is nasty and short. You see the same peril of unrealistic, high expectations in East Timor right now. The third world sees how the first world is living and they think they can jump from ashy to classy in no time, which is just not feasible.

Add in this the utterly short-sighted decision not to kill Al-Sadr, who has been and will remain a bigger enemy to the US's interests than Zarqawi ever could be.

We lost. We lost not now, but in 2004. A Pres. Gore or Clinton could not have won the war, nor could a Pres. Reagan or Pres. Eisenhower. Our government, our military, was not at the time set up (is still not now) for this kind of work. Neither is anyone else in the world. Obviously the UN isn't. The Arab League certainly isn't.

We have to go back to the drawing board, we have to look at the lessons learned, we have to institute true, meaningful reforms, i.e. abolish the CIA & Homeland Security, create a "President's Sgt. Major" post, create a domestic intelligence agency ala MI5 & Shinbet, and do our best to prepare ourselves for the aftershocks of our disaster in Iraq.

What does this say about Haditha? We're giving our honorable Marines an impossible mission that is poorly backed by the USG and the gen. population, and expecting not a one of them to crack in anyway.
Marines are heroic, damn near superhuman to the degree of endurance and patience they have, but there will always be a few in every service who are weak links. If they did what they're accused of doing, this is your weak link, and unfortunately, this weakest link screwed the pooch in the worst possible way.

 

[Gunny]

I wish he'd start using a computer because he sure is missing the calculations I think.

"Taking the gloves off" = fighting guerillas by adopting their tacts rather than having a conventional army "on display."

 

[jasendorf]

"Taking the gloves off" = fighting guerillas by adopting their tacts rather than having a conventional army "on display."

How is Congress preventing this? What tactics that you would like to see are they not being allowed to use? I guess I'm still a bit fuzzy on precisely what you want the military to be allowed to do that it can't right now.

I'm not being facetious here... and, I'm not trying to spill our other conversation into here. I'm truly interested.

I think I can safely assume you ARE NOT talking about tactics like blowing up school buses with IEDs or cutting the heads of non-combatants off (which are the tactics of scumbag terrorists)... so you must be talking about something else that I just don't know about. I'd like to learn.

 

[dmp]

How is Congress preventing this? What tactics that you would like to see are they not being allowed to use? I guess I'm still a bit fuzzy on precisely what you want the military to be allowed to do that it can't right now.

I'm not being facetious here... and, I'm not trying to spill our other conversation into here. I'm truly interested.

I think I can safely assume you ARE NOT talking about tactics like blowing up school buses with IEDs or cutting the heads of non-combatants off (which are the tactics of scumbag terrorists)... so you must be talking about something else that I just don't know about. I'd like to learn.

Do you HONESTLY think you're smarter than Congress? or Military Commanders? Or SecDef? Do you REALLY think you could do a better job?

 

[jasendorf]

Do you HONESTLY think you're smarter than Congress? or Military Commanders? Or SecDef? Do you REALLY think you could do a better job?

What are you talking about dmp? Did you mean to quote me or someone else?

 

[dmp]

What are you talking about dmp? Did you mean to quote me or someone else?

Just requires a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Simple.

 

[jimnyc]

Leaflet the sunni triangle saying you have 72 hours to get out, then we're carpet bombing the whole thing into dust. The terrorists will either be caught while leaving or they will be turned into dust.

I suggested this way before we even entered Iraq. They should obliterate the entire area and let them start over at some date in the future. In the mean time, I'll be able to fill my tank for less than the $60 it costs me now. And no, I won't lose a wink of sleep, in fact I would go as far as to say I would sleep better.

 

[jasendorf]

Just requires a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Simple.

Do you still beat your wife?

 

[jasendorf]

Do you HONESTLY think you're smarter than Congress? or Military Commanders? Or SecDef? Do you REALLY think you could do a better job?

But, come to think of it, I will answer your questions.

No. No. No. And, uh, no.

But, I'm not the one who is proposing we "let the military take off the kid gloves."

Now, will you answer those same questions you posed to me?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I suggested this way before we even entered Iraq. They should obliterate the entire area and let them start over at some date in the future. In the mean time, I'll be able to fill my tank for less than the $60 it costs me now. And no, I won't lose a wink of sleep, in fact I would go as far as to say I would sleep better.

Yep.

I want to go back to the old days to where conquered lands benefitted the whole nation. This helping the world crap is getting old.

 

[dmp]

But, come to think of it, I will answer your questions.

No. No. No. And, uh, no.

But, I'm not the one who is proposing we "let the military take off the kid gloves."

Now, will you answer those same questions you posed to me?

Right - You are NOT smarter. You have NO IDEA what it takes to run an Army or a Nation, yet you sit back and throw darts at those men and woman 500000 times more capable than you. You are SO quick to criticize without offering ANY original thought about the very subject you 'discuss'. This isn't about this thread - this is about you in general and your "I'm smarter than these focker running things" attitude. It's pathetic.

Grow enough balls to be able to hand it to those whose Job-importance FAR outweighs your own. You sit smugly upon your computer chair typing away at a keyboard denouncing the government and elected officials to whom you have GIVEN AN OATH of obedience and protection of the values and documents which make our country great.

You have learned NOTHING from your years in the Army Reserve.

 

[dilloduck]

Yep.

I want to go back to the old days to where conquered lands benefitted the whole nation. This helping the world crap is getting old.

You're going to have to sit back and watch, RW. All these decisions are way above your pay grade.

 

[jasendorf]

Right - You are NOT smarter. You have NO IDEA what it takes to run an Army or a Nation, yet you sit back and throw darts at those men and woman 500000 times more capable than you. You are SO quick to criticize without offering ANY original thought about the very subject you 'discuss'. This isn't about this thread - this is about you in general and your "I'm smarter than these focker running things" attitude. It's pathetic.

Grow enough balls to be able to hand it to those whose Job-importance FAR outweighs your own. You sit smugly upon your computer chair typing away at a keyboard denouncing the government and elected officials to whom you have GIVEN AN OATH of obedience and protection of the values and documents which make our country great.

You have learned NOTHING from your years in the Army Reserve.

Screw off. Maybe you sould go back and read my posts instead of accusing me of things I haven't done.

I don't believe we should pull out. And, I don't think carpet bombing the Sunni Triangle is a good idea either. And, guess what... that's our government's position as well. And, I haven't heard the SecDef suggesting anything other than that either. My position is the exact same position of the same people you're accusing me of "denouncing" and "being smarter than." If you're looking for someone to go off on... find someone who fits your accusations first.

Never once did I criticize any original thought at all. I did ask for a clarification... of what fellow posters were suggesting but didn't dismiss nor denounce them for their suggestions. If "taking off the kid gloves" means carpet bombing the Sunni Triangle... I'm opposed to "taking off the kid gloves." If it means using guerilla tactics which help us target terrorists, AQI and insurgents better without the brutality and evilness of the terrorists' tactics of killing civilians... I'm all for that.

I still want to know where this tirade came from anyways...

Our government's policy is to stay until the job is done (which I fully agree with)... not "get out." If you want to talk to people who are opposing the government's strategy... your anger is poorly aimed.

 

[dmp]

Screw off. Maybe you sould go back and read my posts instead of accusing me of things I haven't done.

I don't believe we should pull out. And, I don't think carpet bombing the Sunni Triangle is a good idea either. And, guess what... that's our government's position as well. And, I haven't heard the SecDef suggesting anything other than that either. My position is the exact same position of the same people you're accusing me of "denouncing" and "being smarter than." If you're looking for someone to go off on... find someone who fits your accusations first.

Never once did I criticize any original thought at all. I did ask for a clarification... of what fellow posters were suggesting but didn't dismiss nor denounce them for their suggestions. If "taking off the kid gloves" means carpet bombing the Sunni Triangle... I'm opposed to "taking off the kid gloves." If it means using guerilla tactics which help us target terrorists, AQI and insurgents better without the brutality and evilness of the terrorists' tactics of killing civilians... I'm all for that.

I still want to know where this tirade came from anyways...

Our government's policy is to stay until the job is done (which I fully agree with)... not "get out." If you want to talk to people who are opposing the government's strategy... your anger is poorly aimed.

www.hop.com

This isn't about this thread - this is about you in general...

 

[Annie]

Screw off. Maybe you sould go back and read my posts instead of accusing me of things I haven't done.

I don't believe we should pull out. And, I don't think carpet bombing the Sunni Triangle is a good idea either. And, guess what... that's our government's position as well. And, I haven't heard the SecDef suggesting anything other than that either. My position is the exact same position of the same people you're accusing me of "denouncing" and "being smarter than." If you're looking for someone to go off on... find someone who fits your accusations first.

Never once did I criticize any original thought at all. I did ask for a clarification... of what fellow posters were suggesting but didn't dismiss nor denounce them for their suggestions. If "taking off the kid gloves" means carpet bombing the Sunni Triangle... I'm opposed to "taking off the kid gloves." If it means using guerilla tactics which help us target terrorists, AQI and insurgents better without the brutality and evilness of the terrorists' tactics of killing civilians... I'm all for that.

I still want to know where this tirade came from anyways...

Our government's policy is to stay until the job is done (which I fully agree with)... not "get out." If you want to talk to people who are opposing the government's strategy... your anger is poorly aimed.

So you agree with the administration's handling of the Iraqi war. :shocked: I truly misunderstood your position.