Is it time to pull out?

Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by CSM, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. CSM
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    CSM Senior Member

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    New York Times
    June 2, 2006
    Pg. 1

    Iraqi Accuses U.S. Of 'Daily' Attacks Against Civilians

    By Richard A. Oppel Jr.

    BAGHDAD, Iraq, June 1 — Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki lashed out at the American military on Thursday, denouncing what he characterized as habitual attacks by troops against Iraqi civilians.

    As outrage over reports that American marines killed 24 Iraqis in the town of Haditha last year continued to shake the new government, the country's senior leaders said that they would demand that American officials turn over their investigative files on the killings and that the Iraqi government would conduct its own inquiry.

    In his comments, Mr. Maliki said violence against civilians had become a "daily phenomenon" by many troops in the American-led coalition who "do not respect the Iraqi people."

    "They crush them with their vehicles and kill them just on suspicion," he said. "This is completely unacceptable." Attacks on civilians will play a role in future decisions on how long to ask American forces to remain in Iraq, the prime minister added.

    The denunciation was an unusual declaration for a government that remains desperately dependent on American forces to keep some form of order in the country amid a resilient Sunni Arab insurgency in the west, widespread sectarian violence in Baghdad, and deadly feuding among Shiite militias that increasingly control the south.

    It was also a sign of the growing pressure on Mr. Maliki, whose governing coalition includes Sunni Arabs who were enraged by news of the killings in Haditha, a city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province. At the same time, he is being pushed by the Americans to resolve the quarreling within his fragile coalition that has left him unable to fill cabinet posts for the Ministries of Defense and the Interior, the two top security jobs in the country.

    Military and Congressional officials have said they believe that an investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis in Haditha on Nov. 19 will show that a group of marines shot and killed civilians without justification or provocation. Survivors in Haditha say the troops shot men, women and children in the head and chest at close range.

    For the second day in a row, President Bush spoke directly about the furor surrounding the case. "Obviously, the allegations are very troubling for me and equally troubling for our military, especially the Marine Corps," President Bush said Thursday, in response to a question from a reporter after a meeting of his cabinet. Referring to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Peter Pace, he added, "I've spoken to General Pace about this issue quite a few times."

    Investigators are examining the role of senior commanders in the aftermath of the Haditha killings, and trying to determine how high up the chain of command culpability may rest.

    Marine officials said Thursday that Maj. Gen. Stephen T. Johnson, who was the top Marine Corps commander in Iraq during the Haditha killings, had been set to be promoted to become the service's senior officer in charge of personnel, a three-star position.

    General Johnson is widely respected by the Marine Corps' senior leadership, yet officials said it was unlikely that the Pentagon would put him up for promotion until the Haditha investigations were concluded.

    The Washington Post reported Thursday that a parallel investigation into whether the killings were covered up has concluded that some officers reported false information and that superiors failed to adequately scrutinize the reports about the two dozen deaths.

    The newspaper said that the inquiry had determined that Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, a squad leader present at Haditha, made a false statement when he reported that a roadside bombing had killed 15 civilians. The inquiry also said that an intelligence unit that later visited the site failed to highlight that civilians had gunshot wounds.

    In Baghdad, senior Iraqi officials demanded an apology and explanation about Haditha from the United States and vowed their own inquiry.

    "We in the ministers' cabinet condemned this crime and demanded that coalition forces show the reasons behind this massacre," Deputy Prime Minister Salam al-Zubaie, one of the most powerful Sunni Arabs in the new government, said in an interview.

    "As you know, this is not the only massacre, and there are a lot," he said. "The coalition forces must change their behavior. Human blood should be sacred regardless of religion, party and nationality."

    Mr. Zubaie, also the acting defense minister, acknowledged that Iraqi officials would probably not be able to force the extradition of any troops suspected of culpability in the Haditha killings. But he said a committee of five ministers, including defense, interior and finance, would investigate the killings with the expectation that American officials would turn over their files. "We do not have the security file because it is in the hands of the coalition forces," he said. "We hope there will not be obstacles ahead."

    The crisis over Haditha and other disputed killings in Sunni areas comes just as it appears that military operations may be needed to retake some Sunni areas at risk of falling to the insurgency.

    This week American forces ordered 1,500 troops from Kuwait into Anbar Province, a stronghold of the Sunni insurgency, in the latest sign that insurgents and terrorist groups including those led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi control much of the sprawling desert region.

    In interviews on Thursday, two senior Republicans — Senator John W. Warner of Virginia, the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and Senator John McCain of Arizona, who is next in line to be committee chairman — both said it was too soon to tell whether the episode would undermine support for the war. Still, both expressed concern.

    Senator Warner, who has promised to hold hearings as soon as the military completes its investigation, said he had been urging Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to wrap up the inquiry as swiftly as possible.

    "In the interim, frankly, the public opinion on this matter is being influenced by misinformation, leaks and undocumented and uncorroborated facts," he said.

    Mr. McCain, who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for more than five years, said the incident harked back to the My Lai massacre during the war in Vietnam. He added, "It certainly is harmful, but I can't assess the extent of the damage."

    Neither he nor Mr. McCain would say whether Mr. Rumsfeld should be called as a witness.

    "I think it depends on what we find out," Mr. McCain said. "I can't say until we really know what happened. There are allegations, and I emphasize allegations, that there was a cover-up. If so, then obviously more senior people would have to be the subject of hearings."

    On Wednesday, American troops near the restive city of Samarra shot and killed two Iraqi women, including one who might have been pregnant and on her way to a hospital, after their car did not heed what the American military command said were repeated warnings to stop.

    At a news conference in Baghdad, a senior American military spokesman, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, said that "about three or four, at least," allegations of wrongdoing by American troops were being investigated and that anyone found guilty of offenses in those incidents or in the Haditha case would be punished. "This tragic incident is in no way representative of how coalition forces treat Iraqi civilians," he said.

    In Baghdad, the top American ground commander in Iraq ordered that all 150,000 American and allied troops in the country receive mandatory refresher training on "legal, moral and ethical standards on the battlefield."

    In a statement, the officer, Lt. Gen. Peter W. Chiarelli, did not specifically cite the civilian deaths in Haditha as the reason for the unusual order.

    But he said commanders would be provided with training materials and sample vignettes to use to instruct on professional military values and conduct in combat, as well as Iraqi cultural sensitivities.


    Is it time to gt the hell out? Are the Iraqis now going to start blaming the US military presence there for all their problems? I think they are. Instead of exposing our troops to (evil as they are) more charges of murder, should we get them the hell out of that environment?
     
  2. insein
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    insein Senior Member

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    Yes and no. By now, it would be time to pull out with a REAL Mission accomplished. Since we've had to fight a media war though for the past 4 years, the insurgency gathers enough strength to continue onward. They are interviewed and say that they lose tons of people daily and moral is low but they continue to fight on because they know that they can sway the American Media to show their story in a positive light. Therefore, this mission has taken much longer then neccassary.
     
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  3. CSM
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    CSM Senior Member

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    I think that is certainly true, but that is not the only reason I ask the question. It has gotten to the point where our military is fast becoming the scapegoat for every ill found in Iraq: the media doesn't support military operations and in some cases does their best to undermine them, the Iraqiis themselves won't help alleviate their own misery (they wont even turn in people they KNOW are terrorists), a large portion of the US citizenry doesn't support the troops or the operations in Iraq (proving that the terrorists are right...the US is soft and has no stomach for war and no will to see the mission through) and even Congress second guesses, criticizes and even convicts the military at every turn (mostly without knowing ANY of the facts).

    It seems to me the troops are the ones who end up bearing the brunt of of all the above. Putting troops in harms way is one thing, then pulling the rug out from under them is another.
     
  4. jasendorf
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    jasendorf Senior Member

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    And as the country devolves into a safe haven for terrorists and militant extremist Muslims, what does one tell the families of those who have already died in the liberation of Iraq? Or, are we suggesting that we'd rather just not have to tell any MORE families that their loved ones have been killed over there?

    I'm all for getting our troops out of Iraq as soon as is humanly possible. But, I don't think we honor the sacrifices of those who have died there by pulling out now.

    For only the right reasons do I stand with the President on this one. What's a better option? Stand outside the White House shouting, "hey hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"
     
  5. Gunny
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    Gunny Gold Member

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    YOur points have merit, but are irrelevant. If the situation is untenable, one does what is best for the living, not sacrifice even more fo them to honor the dead.

    That is not to say I favor pulling out. I favor getting off this moral high horse we tie ourselves to and fighting fire with fire. When we adhere to an arbitrary set of rules the enemy does not, it just ties our tropps' hands behind their backs.
     
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  6. insein
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    insein Senior Member

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    Exactly. People keep crying that the terrorists arent fighting fair. War isn't fair. We need to do what it takes to eliminate the enemy as fast as possible. This, IMO, would have been accomplished faster with a media that reports the news as it is without a bias. If they simply reported on Abu Gharib after all the facts were known and treated it as the anomoly that it is, then alot of innocent civilian lives COULD have been spared from terrorists needing the excuse of the day to kill people. More then likely they would have found another excuse to kill people, but the media didnt help by fanning the flames. Same thing with this Haditha story. They are reporting the mass murder of civilians by soldiers without all the facts being known. If it turns out (which is growing more and more likely from the evidence being released) that this isnt a cold-blooded mass murder, the media has intentional hurt the military in that the American people have already convicted these men in their minds based on what the media has told them. So if and when its proven that this wasnt what they portrayed, will the media correct itself or will they stand by the story as they see it (Memogate, Dan Rather)?
     
  7. T-Bor
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    T-Bor Active Member

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    In essence gunny you want to stoop to their level. I disagree, our values are what in my opinion makes us better than them. If we stoop to their level we lose who we are and we in turn become no better than them. Do you want us to recruit suicide bombers as well who will blow themselves up to take out some iraqis ?

     
  8. T-Bor
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    T-Bor Active Member

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    Yeah, your right, the media has caused the war to go on longer than expected. Its all the medias fault. </Saracasm> Get a grip.

     
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  9. Hobbit
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    Hobbit Senior Member

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    Doesn't the NYT know that pulling out isn't an effective form of contraception.
     
  10. Gunny
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    Gunny Gold Member

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    "Stoop to their level?" You need to get off your idealistic cloud, bud. That "no better than them" crap is old and irrelevant when it comes to conducting war.

    Our morals do not vanish because we apply reality to warfighting. The reality is, we hold our armed forces to a set of arbitrary rules based on our Judeo-Christian morality that the enemy not only has no notion of adhering to, but exploits as often as possible.

    Setting oneself up to lose and/or die because you can't get in the mud and wrestle with a pig for fear of getting dirty is suicidal, and stupid.
     

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