Is it immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

[TheGreatGatsby]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

 

[Agit8r]

Typically a voter will not agree with everything said by every politician that the voter votes for.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Typically a voter will not agree with everything said by every politician that the voter votes for.

Tis true. But the question remains, is this issue so fundamental that voting for a terrorist ideology sympathizer to be rather egregious?

Let me put it this way; say you agreed with everything a candidate said, except he advocated robbing people at gunpoint. Would that one single issue make it immoral for you to vote for him? Perhaps, this question is on that level_ or otherwise approaches it.

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

Shhh...we need their oil. Furthermore, since when has morality had anything to do with politics?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Shhh...we need their oil. Furthermore, since when has morality had anything to do with politics?

Is it about the oil or the votes?

 

[Two Thumbs]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

no, but that pol (a leftist no doubt) has made it clear from the jump that he has no problem telling absurd lies

 

[Agit8r]

Typically a voter will not agree with everything said by every politician that the voter votes for.

Tis true. But the question remains, is this issue so fundamental that voting for a terrorist ideology sympathizer to be rather egregious?

Let me put it this way; say you agreed with everything a candidate said, except he advocated robbing people at gunpoint. Would that one single issue make it immoral for you to vote for him? Perhaps, this question is on that level_ or otherwise approaches it.

depends on the what the opponent advocated

 

[Statistikhengst]

The OP makes a good, solid argument. I am actually very glad that TheGreatGatsby brought this up. Don't faint, Gatsby, sometimes we agree on stuff and you don't even know it.

The real "crux" (let's see who gets that one...) of this issue is how the word "Salaam" (usually translated from Arabic to English to mean "peace") is actually defined in Islam. I believe that many westerners assume quite erroneously that the word "peace" has the same meaning across the world. And that the word has no strings attached to it.

But in the Kuran, Salaam also means to 'subject one-self to Allah' - according to the dictates of Islam, of course, since Islam claims to be the one truth faith and all others are therefore false. In fact, a second dictionary definiton of "Salaam", even published in the western world is:

a very low bow or obeisance, especially with the palm of the right hand placed on the forehead.

So, sure, the word means "peace", but with strings attached. It means "peace" as long as one subjugates himself to "Allah" - of course, according to the dictates of Islam. Not very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

It should also be noted that the word Salaam (Salaami) can also mean safety or security from blemishes or defects, because one of the descriptors for G-d in Arabic is "As-Salaam" , which means: ‘May you not be void of goodness and blessing, and may you be safe from detestable and harmful things.' Notice that the word "peace" is no where in there. Of course, some could say that that definition fullfills exactly their personal definition of peace.

Here an islamic source to back that up:

The Meaning of Salaat and Salaam on the Prophet Shaikh 8216 Abdul-Muhsin Hamad Al- 8216 Abbaad

So, the word "Salaam" can mean a lot of things. Just as the Arabic word for "innocents" (برئ ) - "vuriah" - has a number of meanings and also comes with strings attached. And yes, I mean "innocents" ("innocent", plural) and not "innocence".

Here is a book about this topic, from the Christian perspective, I believe:

WORLD Is Islam a religion of peace Darrow Miller Oct. 25 2014

So, no, I don't think it's immoral to vote for a politician who goes around saying that Islam is a religion of Peace, because he is either ignorant and has no idea of the different meanings of the actual word for "peace", of he knows EXACTLY what it means and is trying to get a point across.

It's how we respond as a unified, freedom-loving people to Islamic terrorism that counts much more to me than the words, probably the campaign trail words, of a politician.

-Stat

 

[Jantje_Smit]

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Shouldn't you first prove that Islam is a great evil, there are almost 2 billion muslims on this planet after all?

Yes I know, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al quada etc. are evil jihadi psychopaths who want to take over the world and install sharia law everywhere but they're still a small minority of all muslim believers no matter what the fearmongering MSM tells you.

Besides that, you think it's more moral to vote for politicians who think it's ok to "torture some folk", bomb wedding parties and liberate oil fields, eh.. people with shock & awe all over the world?

 

[JoeB131]

Shhh...we need their oil. Furthermore, since when has morality had anything to do with politics?

Is it about the oil or the votes?

Actually, its more about not pissing off 1/6 of the worlds population to appease religious bigots.

If Muslims were what you said they were, we wouldn't be dealing with a few thousand crazy people, we'd be dealing with suicidal hoards.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Is any religion a religion of peace? I don't think so.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

t very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Shouldn't you first prove that Islam is a great evil, there are almost 2 billion muslims on this planet after all?

I guess the whole you believe in Islam or you die thing was not enough proof of evil for you? Give me a break, girl.

Here's some Islamic fruit though, lest you forgotten:

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Is any religion a religion of peace? I don't think so.

Damn, I should have called In b4 some idiot posted a lame faux moral equivalency item.... Ah well.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Yes I know, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al quada etc. are evil jihadi psychopaths who want to take over the world and install sharia law everywhere but they're still a small minority of all muslim believers no matter what the fearmongering MSM tells you.

Your point is face value one at best. I've read plenty of Quran passages. These so-called radicals are living what their book tells them to do. And this is why such a high percent of Muslims actually support all the suicide bombing and view Westerners as inherent enemies. The Quran is clear that the infidels (all non-muslims) are deserving of dieing at the hands of their so-called great allah. That is not a religion of peace, dude.

Also, the mainstream media is very sympathetic to Muslims. Don't give me that crap.

Besides that, you think it's more moral to vote for politicians who think it's ok to "torture some folk", bomb wedding parties and liberate oil fields, eh.. people with shock & awe all over the world?

This is a tangent; and I haven't made these points in this thread.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Shouldn't you first prove that Islam is a great evil, there are almost 2 billion muslims on this planet after all?

Yes I know, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al quada etc. are evil jihadi psychopaths who want to take over the world and install sharia law everywhere but they're still a small minority of all muslim believers no matter what the fearmongering MSM tells you.

Besides that, you think it's more moral to vote for politicians who think it's ok to "torture some folk", bomb wedding parties and liberate oil fields, eh.. people with shock & awe all over the world?

A "small" minority that has committed almost 25,000 terror attacks all over the planet since 911 and which receive a hell of a lot of support in polling conducted in Islamic lands.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

The OP makes a good, solid argument. I am actually very glad that TheGreatGatsby brought this up. Don't faint, Gatsby, sometimes we agree on stuff and you don't even know it.

The real "crux" (let's see who gets that one...) of this issue is how the word "Salaam" (usually translated from Arabic to English to mean "peace") is actually defined in Islam. I believe that many westerners assume quite erroneously that the word "peace" has the same meaning across the world. And that the word has no strings attached to it.

But in the Kuran, Salaam also means to 'subject one-self to Allah' - according to the dictates of Islam, of course, since Islam claims to be the one truth faith and all others are therefore false. In fact, a second dictionary definiton of "Salaam", even published in the western world is:

a very low bow or obeisance, especially with the palm of the right hand placed on the forehead.

So, sure, the word means "peace", but with strings attached. It means "peace" as long as one subjugates himself to "Allah" - of course, according to the dictates of Islam. Not very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

It should also be noted that the word Salaam (Salaami) can also mean safety or security from blemishes or defects, because one of the descriptors for G-d in Arabic is "As-Salaam" , which means: ‘May you not be void of goodness and blessing, and may you be safe from detestable and harmful things.' Notice that the word "peace" is no where in there. Of course, some could say that that definition fullfills exactly their personal definition of peace.

Here an islamic source to back that up:

The Meaning of Salaat and Salaam on the Prophet Shaikh 8216 Abdul-Muhsin Hamad Al- 8216 Abbaad

So, the word "Salaam" can mean a lot of things. Just as the Arabic word for "innocents" (برئ ) - "vuriah" - has a number of meanings and also comes with strings attached. And yes, I mean "innocents" ("innocent", plural) and not "innocence".

Here is a book about this topic, from the Christian perspective, I believe:

WORLD Is Islam a religion of peace Darrow Miller Oct. 25 2014

So, no, I don't think it's immoral to vote for a politician who goes around saying that Islam is a religion of Peace, because he is either ignorant and has no idea of the different meanings of the actual word for "peace", of he knows EXACTLY what it means and is trying to get a point across.

It's how we respond as a unified, freedom-loving people to Islamic terrorism that counts much more to me than the words, probably the campaign trail words, of a politician.

-Stat

Okay, I thanked your post for the perspective. But I'll say I'm always weary of academic this is what the word meant centuries ago type stuff. All too often, context gets to stripped. I've seen academia make false claims about Bible meanings with regularity for instance. Granted, I do believe that what you say may true.

However, you're trying to apply their meaning of peace with our meaning of peace; and that's where your logic falls apart. Our politicians aren't calling Islam a religion of peace based upon technical caveats. They are making a case that the religion itself is not a problem and even a great value; and that is clearly false.

 

[Statistikhengst]

The OP makes a good, solid argument. I am actually very glad that TheGreatGatsby brought this up. Don't faint, Gatsby, sometimes we agree on stuff and you don't even know it.

The real "crux" (let's see who gets that one...) of this issue is how the word "Salaam" (usually translated from Arabic to English to mean "peace") is actually defined in Islam. I believe that many westerners assume quite erroneously that the word "peace" has the same meaning across the world. And that the word has no strings attached to it.

But in the Kuran, Salaam also means to 'subject one-self to Allah' - according to the dictates of Islam, of course, since Islam claims to be the one truth faith and all others are therefore false. In fact, a second dictionary definiton of "Salaam", even published in the western world is:

a very low bow or obeisance, especially with the palm of the right hand placed on the forehead.

So, sure, the word means "peace", but with strings attached. It means "peace" as long as one subjugates himself to "Allah" - of course, according to the dictates of Islam. Not very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

It should also be noted that the word Salaam (Salaami) can also mean safety or security from blemishes or defects, because one of the descriptors for G-d in Arabic is "As-Salaam" , which means: ‘May you not be void of goodness and blessing, and may you be safe from detestable and harmful things.' Notice that the word "peace" is no where in there. Of course, some could say that that definition fullfills exactly their personal definition of peace.

Here an islamic source to back that up:

The Meaning of Salaat and Salaam on the Prophet Shaikh 8216 Abdul-Muhsin Hamad Al- 8216 Abbaad

So, the word "Salaam" can mean a lot of things. Just as the Arabic word for "innocents" (برئ ) - "vuriah" - has a number of meanings and also comes with strings attached. And yes, I mean "innocents" ("innocent", plural) and not "innocence".

Here is a book about this topic, from the Christian perspective, I believe:

WORLD Is Islam a religion of peace Darrow Miller Oct. 25 2014

So, no, I don't think it's immoral to vote for a politician who goes around saying that Islam is a religion of Peace, because he is either ignorant and has no idea of the different meanings of the actual word for "peace", of he knows EXACTLY what it means and is trying to get a point across.

It's how we respond as a unified, freedom-loving people to Islamic terrorism that counts much more to me than the words, probably the campaign trail words, of a politician.

-Stat

Okay, I thanked your post for the perspective. But I'll say I'm always weary of academic this is what the word meant centuries ago type stuff. All too often, context gets to stripped. I've seen academia make false claims about Bible meanings with regularity for instance. Granted, I do believe that what you say may true.

However, you're trying to apply their meaning of peace with our meaning of peace; and that's where your logic falls apart. Our politicians aren't calling Islam a religion of peace based upon technical caveats. They are making a case that the religion itself is not a problem and even a great value; and that is clearly false.

Actually, it has as much to do with the present as the past. Words have meaning and not understanding their meaning can lead to catastrophe.

Islam claims that "Salaam" means "peace" - only, it defines very differently than westerners would.

And the two definitions are not reconcilable in any culture that values democracy.

"Peace" with a knive around your neck is not "peace".

I said that our politicians who say it either say it out of ignorance or perhaps because they know EXACTLY what the deal is. There are some, prolly, who say it just to be PC. And that is a shame.

I think you and I agree more on this than you realize.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Shhh...we need their oil. Furthermore, since when has morality had anything to do with politics?

Is it about the oil or the votes?

Actually, its more about not pissing off 1/6 of the worlds population to appease religious bigots.

If Muslims were what you said they were, we wouldn't be dealing with a few thousand crazy people, we'd be dealing with suicidal hoards.

Taking your warped judgements out of it, you have a point of being workable with a billion or so people. Though, this is about walking a line with power sharks (their dictators) who would seek to preserve their power / oil money__ as they are walking their own fine line.

Much as you'd like to chalk this up to relgious bigotry, that's just a reach. A dude writes a murder manual, I'm not going to support it. SImple as that. I don't have go to church to have that moral stance.

BTW, we are dealing with blood thirsty hoards. What do you think ISIS is?

 

[JoeMoma]

The OP makes a good, solid argument. I am actually very glad that TheGreatGatsby brought this up. Don't faint, Gatsby, sometimes we agree on stuff and you don't even know it.

The real "crux" (let's see who gets that one...) of this issue is how the word "Salaam" (usually translated from Arabic to English to mean "peace") is actually defined in Islam. I believe that many westerners assume quite erroneously that the word "peace" has the same meaning across the world. And that the word has no strings attached to it.

But in the Kuran, Salaam also means to 'subject one-self to Allah' - according to the dictates of Islam, of course, since Islam claims to be the one truth faith and all others are therefore false. In fact, a second dictionary definiton of "Salaam", even published in the western world is:

a very low bow or obeisance, especially with the palm of the right hand placed on the forehead.

So, sure, the word means "peace", but with strings attached. It means "peace" as long as one subjugates himself to "Allah" - of course, according to the dictates of Islam. Not very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

It should also be noted that the word Salaam (Salaami) can also mean safety or security from blemishes or defects, because one of the descriptors for G-d in Arabic is "As-Salaam" , which means: ‘May you not be void of goodness and blessing, and may you be safe from detestable and harmful things.' Notice that the word "peace" is no where in there. Of course, some could say that that definition fullfills exactly their personal definition of peace.

Here an islamic source to back that up:

The Meaning of Salaat and Salaam on the Prophet Shaikh 8216 Abdul-Muhsin Hamad Al- 8216 Abbaad

So, the word "Salaam" can mean a lot of things. Just as the Arabic word for "innocents" (برئ ) - "vuriah" - has a number of meanings and also comes with strings attached. And yes, I mean "innocents" ("innocent", plural) and not "innocence".

Here is a book about this topic, from the Christian perspective, I believe:

WORLD Is Islam a religion of peace Darrow Miller Oct. 25 2014

So, no, I don't think it's immoral to vote for a politician who goes around saying that Islam is a religion of Peace, because he is either ignorant and has no idea of the different meanings of the actual word for "peace", of he knows EXACTLY what it means and is trying to get a point across.

It's how we respond as a unified, freedom-loving people to Islamic terrorism that counts much more to me than the words, probably the campaign trail words, of a politician.

-Stat

Okay, I thanked your post for the perspective. But I'll say I'm always weary of academic this is what the word meant centuries ago type stuff. All too often, context gets to stripped. I've seen academia make false claims about Bible meanings with regularity for instance. Granted, I do believe that what you say may true.

However, you're trying to apply their meaning of peace with our meaning of peace; and that's where your logic falls apart. Our politicians aren't calling Islam a religion of peace based upon technical caveats. They are making a case that the religion itself is not a problem and even a great value; and that is clearly false.

Actually, it has as much to do with the present as the past. Words have meaning and not understanding their meaning can lead to catastrophe.

Islam claims that "Salaam" means "peace" - only, it defines very differently than westerners would.

And the two definitions are not reconcilable in any culture that values democracy.

"Peace" with a knive around your neck is not "peace".

I said that our politicians who say it either say it out of ignorance or perhaps because they know EXACTLY what the deal is. There are some, prolly, who say it just to be PC. And that is a shame.

I think you and I agree more on this than you realize.

Which type of politician in this regard is Obama? Does he say Islam is a religion of peace out of ignorance or does he know Exactly what the deal is?

 

[Statistikhengst]

The OP makes a good, solid argument. I am actually very glad that TheGreatGatsby brought this up. Don't faint, Gatsby, sometimes we agree on stuff and you don't even know it.

The real "crux" (let's see who gets that one...) of this issue is how the word "Salaam" (usually translated from Arabic to English to mean "peace") is actually defined in Islam. I believe that many westerners assume quite erroneously that the word "peace" has the same meaning across the world. And that the word has no strings attached to it.

But in the Kuran, Salaam also means to 'subject one-self to Allah' - according to the dictates of Islam, of course, since Islam claims to be the one truth faith and all others are therefore false. In fact, a second dictionary definiton of "Salaam", even published in the western world is:

a very low bow or obeisance, especially with the palm of the right hand placed on the forehead.

So, sure, the word means "peace", but with strings attached. It means "peace" as long as one subjugates himself to "Allah" - of course, according to the dictates of Islam. Not very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

It should also be noted that the word Salaam (Salaami) can also mean safety or security from blemishes or defects, because one of the descriptors for G-d in Arabic is "As-Salaam" , which means: ‘May you not be void of goodness and blessing, and may you be safe from detestable and harmful things.' Notice that the word "peace" is no where in there. Of course, some could say that that definition fullfills exactly their personal definition of peace.

Here an islamic source to back that up:

The Meaning of Salaat and Salaam on the Prophet Shaikh 8216 Abdul-Muhsin Hamad Al- 8216 Abbaad

So, the word "Salaam" can mean a lot of things. Just as the Arabic word for "innocents" (برئ ) - "vuriah" - has a number of meanings and also comes with strings attached. And yes, I mean "innocents" ("innocent", plural) and not "innocence".

Here is a book about this topic, from the Christian perspective, I believe:

WORLD Is Islam a religion of peace Darrow Miller Oct. 25 2014

So, no, I don't think it's immoral to vote for a politician who goes around saying that Islam is a religion of Peace, because he is either ignorant and has no idea of the different meanings of the actual word for "peace", of he knows EXACTLY what it means and is trying to get a point across.

It's how we respond as a unified, freedom-loving people to Islamic terrorism that counts much more to me than the words, probably the campaign trail words, of a politician.

-Stat

Okay, I thanked your post for the perspective. But I'll say I'm always weary of academic this is what the word meant centuries ago type stuff. All too often, context gets to stripped. I've seen academia make false claims about Bible meanings with regularity for instance. Granted, I do believe that what you say may true.

However, you're trying to apply their meaning of peace with our meaning of peace; and that's where your logic falls apart. Our politicians aren't calling Islam a religion of peace based upon technical caveats. They are making a case that the religion itself is not a problem and even a great value; and that is clearly false.

Actually, it has as much to do with the present as the past. Words have meaning and not understanding their meaning can lead to catastrophe.

Islam claims that "Salaam" means "peace" - only, it defines very differently than westerners would.

And the two definitions are not reconcilable in any culture that values democracy.

"Peace" with a knive around your neck is not "peace".

I said that our politicians who say it either say it out of ignorance or perhaps because they know EXACTLY what the deal is. There are some, prolly, who say it just to be PC. And that is a shame.

I think you and I agree more on this than you realize.

Which type of politician in this regard is Obama? Does he say Islam is a religion of peace out of ignorance or does he know Exactly what the deal is?

I don't know. But either way, on this point, he is wrong. Since he is not a Muslim, I doubt he would like the other definition of SALAAM.