Is America A Christian Nation?

[YWN666]

I dont really see how we are disagreeing. there is no state religion. That doesnt make us any less a Christian nation.

Actually, it does. Christianity is not our state religion. The End.

No one is claiming it is the state religion.

We are claiming its a Christian nation. There's a difference. It's not really that difficult to understand.

This is a nation mostly of Christians, created by Christians, with the Christian principles of freedom and liberty as the founding principles.

Freedom and liberty are not exclusive christian principles. You think there was no such thing as freedom and liberty before Jesus was born? Stop trying to claim ownership to something in the public domain.

 

[Phate]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

 

[sealybobo]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

 

[ding]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

The data suggests otherwise.

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

 

[Correll]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

 

[sealybobo]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

 

[Correll]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

 

[sealybobo]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

The data suggests otherwise.

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

Nonsense. Only the people who don’t have the materials are sour about materialism.

Ok so it makes a lot of people feel good. Better about themselves. Better about their bad situation. Rather than do something about it they pray

 

[ding]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

The data suggests otherwise.

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

Nonsense. Only the people who don’t have the materials are sour about materialism.

Ok so it makes a lot of people feel good. Better about themselves. Better about their bad situation. Rather than do something about it they pray

uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

You are so desperate for people to be atheists you gave winterborn a hall pass for denying he was a materialist.

 

[sealybobo]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

I’m sure if you examined every other sect you’d find things that you think makes them all not really Christianity.

Pro choice, being baptized as babies, women priests, gays in the pews, worshiping a pope. I hear Christians on here saying Catholics aren’t real Christians. You’re all ridiculous

Gimme a break on your judgement of what is and isn’t a Christian. You’re all Christians. A big bag of nuts.

 

[ding]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

I’m sure if you examined every other sect you’d find things that you think makes them all not really Christianity.

Pro choice, being baptized as babies, women priests, gays in the pews, worshiping a pope. I hear Christians on here saying Catholics aren’t real Christians. You’re all ridiculous

Gimme a break on your judgement of what is and isn’t a Christian. You’re all Christians. A big bag of nuts.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.


Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.


So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.


Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.


If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

 

[sealybobo]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

The data suggests otherwise.

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

Nonsense. Only the people who don’t have the materials are sour about materialism.

Ok so it makes a lot of people feel good. Better about themselves. Better about their bad situation. Rather than do something about it they pray

uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

You are so desperate for people to be atheists you gave winterborn a hall pass for denying he was a materialist.

The only thing that matters is love. If you have people that love you it doesn’t matter if you believe in the man upstairs

 

[ding]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

The data suggests otherwise.

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

Nonsense. Only the people who don’t have the materials are sour about materialism.

Ok so it makes a lot of people feel good. Better about themselves. Better about their bad situation. Rather than do something about it they pray

uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

You are so desperate for people to be atheists you gave winterborn a hall pass for denying he was a materialist.

The only thing that matters is love. If you have people that love you it doesn’t matter if you believe in the man upstairs

Attila the Hun had people that loved him. So did Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

 

[Correll]

America's founding fathers were only Christian in name, if even that. They were secular theists. America was founded by Christians, yes. But religion, including Christianity, is supposed to be seperate from our government. So it doesn't matter if Christians found this country or whether it was Muslims or Hindus.

America is not a Christian Country. It is not a Muslim Country. It is not a Atheist Country. America is a secular country where religion is not supposed to influence our government. Just because the majority of the population is Christian, does not make it a Christian nation because people of many faiths live here.

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

I’m sure if you examined every other sect you’d find things that you think makes them all not really Christianity.

Pro choice, being baptized as babies, women priests, gays in the pews, worshiping a pope. I hear Christians on here saying Catholics aren’t real Christians. You’re all ridiculous

Gimme a break on your judgement of what is and isn’t a Christian. You’re all Christians. A big bag of nuts.

It's been a while since I researched it, but the BLT, is very far off the reservation.

It is more about Marx than Christ.

 

[sealybobo]

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

I’m sure if you examined every other sect you’d find things that you think makes them all not really Christianity.

Pro choice, being baptized as babies, women priests, gays in the pews, worshiping a pope. I hear Christians on here saying Catholics aren’t real Christians. You’re all ridiculous

Gimme a break on your judgement of what is and isn’t a Christian. You’re all Christians. A big bag of nuts.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.


Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.


So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.


Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.


If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

Point one. Look at the Muslim nations. Do you know which citizens in the Middle East have the best chance at having a secular democracy? Iran. Their citizens aren’t very religious the country is just run by religion.

It would be a much better place if it were a secular democracy where people were free to practice or not.

Instead those liberal Iranians are just living underground. They know how to get weed and alcohol.

You root for the Iranian government

 

[ding]

Obama was obviously an atheists. Black Liberation Theology is not Christianity, but Marxism under the cover of the Church.

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

I’m sure if you examined every other sect you’d find things that you think makes them all not really Christianity.

Pro choice, being baptized as babies, women priests, gays in the pews, worshiping a pope. I hear Christians on here saying Catholics aren’t real Christians. You’re all ridiculous

Gimme a break on your judgement of what is and isn’t a Christian. You’re all Christians. A big bag of nuts.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.


Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.


So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.


Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.


If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

Point one. Look at the Muslim nations. Do you know which citizens in the Middle East have the best chance at having a secular democracy? Iran. Their citizens aren’t very religious the country is just run by religion.

It would be a much better place if it were a secular democracy where people were free to practice or not.

Instead those liberal Iranians are just living underground. They know how to get weed and alcohol.

You root for the Iranian government

I don't think you are making a very effective argument for atheism. People everywhere, in every culture throughout the entirety of mankind have believed in a power greater than man.

Why do you believe that is?

 

[sealybobo]

All I can say is who knows how many of us Atheists are out there.

In A Congress Full Of Firsts, Still No Open Atheists | HuffPost

There are certainly some liars in the government. We make up like 30% of the population yet not one openly atheist member of the government?

It's our turn to come out of the closet and I think you will all be surprised how many of us there are.

Ding

The data suggests otherwise.

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

Nonsense. Only the people who don’t have the materials are sour about materialism.

Ok so it makes a lot of people feel good. Better about themselves. Better about their bad situation. Rather than do something about it they pray

uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

You are so desperate for people to be atheists you gave winterborn a hall pass for denying he was a materialist.

The only thing that matters is love. If you have people that love you it doesn’t matter if you believe in the man upstairs

Attila the Hun had people that loved him. So did Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Hitler was very spiritual he would have liked you

 

[sealybobo]

So all those black Baptist churches aren’t Christianity?

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

I’m sure if you examined every other sect you’d find things that you think makes them all not really Christianity.

Pro choice, being baptized as babies, women priests, gays in the pews, worshiping a pope. I hear Christians on here saying Catholics aren’t real Christians. You’re all ridiculous

Gimme a break on your judgement of what is and isn’t a Christian. You’re all Christians. A big bag of nuts.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.


Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.


So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.


Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.


If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

Point one. Look at the Muslim nations. Do you know which citizens in the Middle East have the best chance at having a secular democracy? Iran. Their citizens aren’t very religious the country is just run by religion.

It would be a much better place if it were a secular democracy where people were free to practice or not.

Instead those liberal Iranians are just living underground. They know how to get weed and alcohol.

You root for the Iranian government

I don't think you are making a very effective argument for atheism. People everywhere, in every culture throughout the entirety of mankind have believed in a power greater than man.

Why do you believe that is?

Wishful thinking, not knowing, being brainwashed or maybe feared into it?..

 

[ding]

The data suggests otherwise.

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

Nonsense. Only the people who don’t have the materials are sour about materialism.

Ok so it makes a lot of people feel good. Better about themselves. Better about their bad situation. Rather than do something about it they pray

uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

You are so desperate for people to be atheists you gave winterborn a hall pass for denying he was a materialist.

The only thing that matters is love. If you have people that love you it doesn’t matter if you believe in the man upstairs

Attila the Hun had people that loved him. So did Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Hitler was very spiritual he would have liked you

I doubt it. He was an atheist like you.

 

[ding]

Not if they are practicing Black Liberation Theology, as Rev Wright was.

I’m sure if you examined every other sect you’d find things that you think makes them all not really Christianity.

Pro choice, being baptized as babies, women priests, gays in the pews, worshiping a pope. I hear Christians on here saying Catholics aren’t real Christians. You’re all ridiculous

Gimme a break on your judgement of what is and isn’t a Christian. You’re all Christians. A big bag of nuts.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.


Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.


So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.


Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.


If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

Point one. Look at the Muslim nations. Do you know which citizens in the Middle East have the best chance at having a secular democracy? Iran. Their citizens aren’t very religious the country is just run by religion.

It would be a much better place if it were a secular democracy where people were free to practice or not.

Instead those liberal Iranians are just living underground. They know how to get weed and alcohol.

You root for the Iranian government

I don't think you are making a very effective argument for atheism. People everywhere, in every culture throughout the entirety of mankind have believed in a power greater than man.

Why do you believe that is?

Wishful thinking, not knowing, being brainwashed or maybe feared into it?..

So you DON'T believe in natural selection?