Impact Of Illegal Immigration An “exaggeration”

[WillowTree]

I'm for total amnesty, total, and I look forward to 30 million more, and then 30 million more after that, yep illegal immigration is a good good good thing. When are the Chinese coming? I love the Chinese they are hard workers looking for a better life and they are fastidious gardners!

 

[Agnapostate]

Jeez I answered this last night? I'm confused..........

You didn't answer anything. You said that you were against total amnesty, but you don't appear to have stated why.

I'm for total amnesty, total, and I look forward to 30 million more, and then 30 million more after that, yep illegal immigration is a good good good thing. When are the Chinese coming? I love the Chinese they are hard workers looking for a better life and they are fastidious gardners!

What aspect of my ethical perspective suggested that this was a commendable or desirable course of action?

 

[Lita456]

You didn't answer anything. You said that you were against total amnesty, but you don't appear to have stated why.



What aspect of my ethical perspective suggested that this was a commendable or desirable course of action?

Yes I did answer this last night - funny, Svante said some of his posts disappeared as well. I will answer this again later, I'm at work and getting ready to leave..........

 

[Lita456]

I believe the illegal immigrants that have been here a long time, and have made America their home, brought up their family here, work their butts off, pay taxes, and have no other criminal record should be offered a legalization plan without the wait time......

On the other hand, the illegal immigrants who commit crimes, don't care about anything or anyone should be deported ASAP - there needs to be a fine line on who's allowed in here and who isn't.

If you had full amnesty for everyone, it would be a free for all.............

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

This thread is going to hell in a hand basket. Yes, let's import cheap labor at the expense of the culture. Hell yeah, using cheap labor that offsets the work of millions laborers and activist over the last 100 years for the for the benefit of the rich? Oh, me thinks something is a screwy in god's green universe when people condemn racism but give out nothing but praise for rich gobachos using and abusing illegal aliens ( Brown skin folks, in the parlance ravi can relate too). I mean illegal aliens. Why is it OK to import them, and exploit them for money, but it's EVIL vile and RACIST to point that fact out? And that " Classist" crap rears it's ugly head. Is it because most of the unaffected people are white and upper class and /or intellectuals that seem to be most concerned with "class" or racism? What are you afraid of, RAVI? You like to tell me how racist I am, based on ...WHAT? You are the racist here, as far as I can tell. What the hell do you know about it? You like to sit there and second judge the rest of us. Look a little harder at your own motives.

 

[Ravi]

This thread is going to hell in a hand basket. Yes, let's import cheap labor at the expense of the culture. Hell yeah, using cheap labor that offsets the work of millions laborers and activist over the last 100 years for the for the benefit of the rich? Oh, me thinks something is a screwy in god's green universe when people condemn racism but give out nothing but praise for rich gobachos using and abusing illegal aliens ( Brown skin folks, in the parlance ravi can relate too). I mean illegal aliens. Why is it OK to import them, and exploit them for money, but it's EVIL vile and RACIST to point that fact out? And that " Classist" crap rears it's ugly head. Is it because most of the unaffected people are white and upper class and /or intellectuals that seem to be most concerned with "class" or racism? What are you afraid of, RAVI? You like to tell me how racist I am, based on ...WHAT? You are the racist here, as far as I can tell. What the hell do you know about it? You like to sit there and second judge the rest of us. Look a little harder at your own motives.

Honestly? I think it is the way you present it.

I think if you calmed down a bit and had a rational discussion about immigration we'd have a better chance of understanding each other.

If we can start over, I'd like to say that I, like the guy in the OP, have my doubts about the impact these undocumented workers have on the US. Is it an overall good or bad impact? I've no real idea, do you?

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Ravi, nothing would make me happier, perhaps we got off on the wrong foot. I will be back. Like a bad penny? Kidding. Adios.

 

[Agnapostate]

I believe the illegal immigrants that have been here a long time, and have made America their home, brought up their family here, work their butts off, pay taxes, and have no other criminal record should be offered a legalization plan without the wait time......

On the other hand, the illegal immigrants who commit crimes, don't care about anything or anyone should be deported ASAP - there needs to be a fine line on who's allowed in here and who isn't.

If you had full amnesty for everyone, it would be a free for all.............

No society or country has a monopoly on crime...though it favors a utilitarian standpoint rather than a "national sovereignty" one, I'll say that the American criminal justice system can probably deal more effectively with criminals than those of their home countries can, not least due to the U.S.'s greater wealth and greater ability to afford forms of criminal justice. Such criminals would also likely inflict less suffering in an advanced first-world country than they would in their countries of origin, which are likely to have fewer law enforcement personnel and fewer outlets for victims of crime to access.

Moving on to the more pragmatic aspect of illegal immigration and crime, I'd first like to point out that according to a 2005 report by the GAO, “We identified a population of 55,322 aliens that…had entered the country illegally and were still illegally in the country at the time of their incarceration in the country in federal or state prison or local jail during fiscal year 2003.”

Now about half of that number were incarcerated for either drug-related offenses (an authoritarian drug war benefits no one) or for simply being in the country illegally. Now these immigrants are less than 3 percent of the total prison population, which means that legal citizens and legal immigrants comprise 97 percent of the prison population. I’d say that immigrants are actually less likely to commit crimes in some instances. A (Harvard) Kennedy School of Government study of men aged eighteen to forty found that immigrants were about one third less likely than legal citizens to be incarcerated in correctional institutions.

As I've asked previously, does a prohibitive, police state policy towards immigrants reduce crime? If there are severe criminals amongst illegal immigrants, how can the law-abiding among them report the criminals when they would be deported for stepping forward?

I would speculate that the vast majority of the criminal offenses committed by illegal immigrants would be eradicated by three simple steps.

1) Providing amnesty for all illegal immigrants and legalizing all border crossing.

This would obviously empty prisons of the numerous illegal immigrants residing within them merely for the crime of having entered the country illegally, but legalization would also permit immigrants to unionize and demand increased salaries and benefits. At that point, immigrants would no longer exist in the impoverished state that necessitated that they commit crime.

2) Legalizing all drugs and implementing a system of regulation and taxation on them.

This will eliminate drug-related crime, since a black market would no longer hold a monopoly over the sales of drugs, and drug cartels would vanish in the same manner as speakeasies have.

3) Repealing the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Repealing NAFTA will result in the elimination of the unfortunate economic circumstances caused in Mexico by the spread of neoliberalism.

There is also a fourth and unlikely step that might be taken.

4) Providing financial and military aid to the Zapatista rebels in Chiapas.

Were the Zapatistas able to overthrow the Mexican government, they would establish a more humane and free society in Mexico.

Now what precisely is so shocking about me being for amnesty?

 

[catzmeow]

I don't think anyone here necessarily denies that illegal immigrants pose a burden to legal citizens in some instances. In fact, I'll openly say that they in many circumstances, their use of social services exceeds their tax payments.

But there are two factors to consider here. The first is one which only fellow consequentialists and utilitarians will likely care about, and which deontologists will likely scorn, which is the degree of the suffering caused to illegal immigrants through forcible deportation or border closing compared to the suffering caused to American taxpayers through the imposition of higher fees and taxes through the presence of illegal immigrants. I firmly believe that the suffering caused to illegal immigrants by forced residence in an inhumane and utterly destitute environment is more severe than that caused to American taxpayers through the imposition of higher taxes upon them. So, that's approaching the issue from a purely ethical perspective.

From a more "practical" perspective, we need to differentiate between causation and correlation as well as between cause and effect when it comes to analyzing the social and economic costs of illegal immigrants' presence in the U.S.

This is where you and I separate, ideologically. I don't view all humans on this planet in the same way. I don't believe that every human is entitled to settle wherever they wish, whenever they wish. I believe that humans often have the government they wish/deserve, whatever that might be. And when it comes to providing limited resources from THIS country to the world, i favor taking care of Americans first, and then relieving suffering elsewhere.

Illegal immigration negatively impacts poor folks in the U.S. by broadening the labor pool, keeping wages artificially stagnant, and thus, increasing the poverty and desperation of those in the U.S. who are destitute and suffering. And the problem of poverty in the U.S. is one we have not yet begun to solve, so we shouldn't be adding to it.

I believe a case can be made that the problems incurred by illegal immigration can be remedied by amnesty and the granting of legal status to illegal immigrants. Consider this:

Undocumented Immigrants in Georgia: Tax Contribution and Fiscal Concerns

The problem is that illegal immigrants often pay taxes, but are not entitled to services. If you legalize them, you will be increasing the burden on local schools, local services, local roads, local jails, etc., without a concurrent increase in income to those areas. On a national scale, the impact is absorbed. But at a local level, the impact can be catastrophic.

I don't believe that those "increased wages, language skills, and education" can be obtained by immigrants while they retain an illegal status, as this places them into a disenfranchised segment of the population. The wages are probably the most obvious example of this.

I don't believe that these individuals are entitled to these benefits in the first place. Let them apply to move here legally, through the existing system. I do believe in population control. At present, we keep our population growing at a relatively slow pace because the more educated Americans become, the less frequently they breed. However, illegal immigration leads to massive population increases that strain our infrastructure and that pose a threat to our natural environment and resources.

Should illegal immigrants be granted amnesty, they would be able to unionize and demand higher salaries and benefits, at which point they could pay a corresponding amount of taxes.

On the other hand, it is simple economics. Employment does not necessarily increase simply because you flood the labor pool with new, unionized employees. More people in the labor pool = more competition for jobs = detrimental impact particularly on America's working poor who have already been left behind educationally and technologically. Until we fix that problem, i do not believe we should be contributing to their woes.

 

[catzmeow]

Honestly? I think it is the way you present it.

I think if you calmed down a bit and had a rational discussion about immigration we'd have a better chance of understanding each other.

If we can start over, I'd like to say that I, like the guy in the OP, have my doubts about the impact these undocumented workers have on the US. Is it an overall good or bad impact? I've no real idea, do you?

perhaps you should bother to read up the thread where I provided statistics from a study by the CBO on this very subject, along with a study of the impact of illegal immigration on poor black Americans.

 

[Ravi]

perhaps you should bother to read up the thread where I provided statistics from a study by the CBO on this very subject, along with a study of the impact of illegal immigration on poor black Americans.

I saw that. I believe I pre-addressed that report, though it could have been in another thread. The CBO even admits it's numbers and statistics are based on flimsy evidence.

 

[catzmeow]

I saw that. I believe I pre-addressed that report, though it could have been in another thread. The CBO even admits it's numbers and statistics are based on flimsy evidence.

What about the other study?

 

[irie]

Ya can't call em illegal aliens because that is derogitory...the correct term is unauthorized immigrant.....get it right!!!

 

[Agnapostate]

Why didn't I get a notification when this thread was revived? This is odd.

 

[WillowTree]

let them all come, let them all stay, let them bring all their families, when are the Chinese coming? They want a better life and are hard workers and keep fastidious gardens. Open the borders, no holds barred. Yes Yes yes!

 

[sky dancer]

Imagine there's no country.....

John Lennon

 

[WillowTree]

Imagine there's no country.....

John Lennon

yes, just imagine, cause there won't be, and no food, no medicine or any education. we shall be so proud of ourselves.

 

[catzmeow]

yes, just imagine, cause there won't be, and no food, no medicine or any education. we shall be so proud of ourselves.

Maybe the Indians will come to us with those things when WE'RE a third world country.

 

[sky dancer]

What makes you think that people will stop migrating for increased prosperity?

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Si habla Espanol. Remember seeing signs stating that in small type on the bottom? Well, now days, with all the "diversity" and all, I see a plethora of signs ONLY in Spanish. I am made to feel like I am foreigner in my own homeland by people that just got of the bus from Tijuana. I feel like this is some kind of cold war. I get evil stares. I get loud musica set to the torture level. When I arrive home , some of my Hispanic wunderkinds want to take out his Anglo hatred on me. Threats, anger, belligerence because I am not Hispanic. Viva LA Freekin' RAZA. Diversity means just the opposite. Acclimation is now a insult , and diversity means just the opposite. Hispanic hegemony, that's "diversity". I am glad some of you don't understand that. When you figure it out, then it's too late. Governor Ritter hasn't got a bloody clue. Meanwhile some of us bleed and fear for our lives. That is no exaggeration, governor!