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People that are legal non citizen residents have the proper paperwork because they have followed the law. Those that are here illegally do not have the proper paperwork. No conviction is necessary to deny those here illegally citizenship because if they are here, they need to show that they are here legally to proceed with the naturalization process.Losing citizenship is not the same as being denied citizenship. A person who is not a citizen can be denied a route to citizenship if he does follow proper procedure (the law) in entering the country."I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "
This isn't consistent.
One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.
On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.
A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.
Ah, but first, he has to be convicted in a court of law for being in the USA illegally. And, law enforcement is not allowed to demand proof of his citizenship without probable cause. And, being a latino, speaking Spanish, and having the name of Juan is NOT probable cause. Please send my regrets to Donald Trump about that.
People that are legal non citizen residents have the proper paperwork because they have followed the law. Those that are here illegally do not have the proper paperwork. No conviction is necessary to deny those here illegally citizenship because if they are here, they need to show that they are here legally to proceed with the naturalization process.Losing citizenship is not the same as being denied citizenship. A person who is not a citizen can be denied a route to citizenship if he does follow proper procedure (the law) in entering the country."I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "
This isn't consistent.
One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.
On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.
A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.
Ah, but first, he has to be convicted in a court of law for being in the USA illegally. And, law enforcement is not allowed to demand proof of his citizenship without probable cause. And, being a latino, speaking Spanish, and having the name of Juan is NOT probable cause. Please send my regrets to Donald Trump about that.
And if they are not accused of a crime, there is still a legal process for becoming a citizen. If they are not here legally, then they will not have the proper paper trail for the naturalization process.People that are legal non citizen residents have the proper paperwork because they have followed the law. Those that are here illegally do not have the proper paperwork. No conviction is necessary to deny those here illegally citizenship because if they are here, they need to show that they are here legally to proceed with the naturalization process.Losing citizenship is not the same as being denied citizenship. A person who is not a citizen can be denied a route to citizenship if he does follow proper procedure (the law) in entering the country.On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.
A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.
Ah, but first, he has to be convicted in a court of law for being in the USA illegally. And, law enforcement is not allowed to demand proof of his citizenship without probable cause. And, being a latino, speaking Spanish, and having the name of Juan is NOT probable cause. Please send my regrets to Donald Trump about that.
Totally false, Joe. Everyone in America accused of a crime has the right to their day in court. See the link below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/us/split-second-justice-as-us-cracks-down-on-border-crossers.html
Immigrants, where here legally or illegally do not have the right to become US citizens except thought the naturalization process. If they don't follow the process, then they don't become citizens. And if they are here illegally, then they are not following the process.
If they do come forward, then part of the penalty could be, if such legislation is passed, that they could pay a fine and have legal residence, but not qualify for the naturalization process.Immigrants, where here legally or illegally do not have the right to become US citizens except thought the naturalization process. If they don't follow the process, then they don't become citizens. And if they are here illegally, then they are not following the process.
I agree with that. My issue is that it is virtually impossible to track down an undocumented immigrant and bring him to trial for deportation unless he is caught committing a crime. I suspect that many would not come forward for naturalization, unless the penalty is not too steep.
What? Answer the question. How do you propose we find those who do not register?What incentive do they have to "come out of the shadows", if they have to face "punishment? What ever tactic we use, short of amnesty, we will have to go find them. How do you propose we do that?And we just forgive them for breaking our laws by coming here outside the established process?
And what do we do about those who cannot/will not "prove" self-support?
1. Ten years of paying taxes without eligibility for any benefits (e.g., accrued Social Security) is a huge penalty for them and an added revenue source to support these programs.
2. Self-support is also a condition for legal immigration. If they can't prove it through tax filings, they should be deported.
Using your logic in point one, I could go into YOUR house and do whatever I want, then simply pay you a "fee" and it's all good. Right? No jail, no criminal record... Just pay a pre-determined amount, regardless of how much I may have cost you, and go about my life.
Those who fail to register would be subject to immediate deportation. Please stop inserting your own terminology and then arguing against it.
So... What is approriate, in your opinion? A small fine? A little jail time? Maybe something else?"And we just forgive them for breaking our laws by coming here outside the established process?"
No.
Again, in the context of immigration reform, those undocumented will be subject to punitive measures for having entered the country absent authorization.
The 14th Amendment guarantees the right of due process to all persons in the United States, including those undocumented.
Punitive measures consistent with immigration reform would satisfy that requirement, subject those undocumented to appropriate penalties and fines, and once those penalties are discharged, allow immigration offenders to enter society, as is the case with all other ex-offenders.
Maybe so. However, a shoplifter CAN, and often times IS, banned from the store they where stealing from. I don't think anyone is saying that they would have to go home and stay there, they can go to another country if they choose. What would be wrong with saying, "...go where you like, you're just not welcome here anymore."? Would that not be the same as a store owner saying to a theif, "You where caught stealing from me. You are not welcome here anymore."?Is a shoplifter prohibited from ever again entering a store, handling merchandise, or purchasing goods and services – of course not; to do so would be just as ridiculous as disallowing undocumented immigrants who have been subject to punitive measures to become citizens, where deportation is the sole 'appropriate' punishment.Should the punishment fit the crime? Yes! Does a shoplifter get to keep the loot after being caught shoplifting? I don't think so? Should those that enter the country illegally be granted citizenship? See answer the shoplifter question!
"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "
This isn't consistent.
One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.
On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.
A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.
"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "
This isn't consistent.
One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.
On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.
A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.
The difference being, I'm already a citizen with certain rights. How does a person who broke our laws coming here have the same rights as me? No other country allows this insanity, and Mexico certainly doesn't. Why do you think that mass illegal immigration from the third world does us any good, especially with our unemployment problems and problems funding our safety nets the way it is?
"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "
This isn't consistent.
One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.
On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.
A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.
The difference being, I'm already a citizen with certain rights. How does a person who broke our laws coming here have the same rights as me? No other country allows this insanity, and Mexico certainly doesn't. Why do you think that mass illegal immigration from the third world does us any good, especially with our unemployment problems and problems funding our safety nets the way it is?
Have you ever had a speeding ticket? Well, then, you are guilty of a misdemeanor, and I am not. Being in the USA illegally on a first offense is also a misdemeanor. Getting back to your crime, why do you have the same rights as me?
How do you propose we find those who do not register?
How do you propose we find those who do not register?
Anyone who comes in contact with law enforcement should be run through a data base. Non-US Citizens who have failed to register would be deported. If they return after deportation, they go to jail for one year (preferably in their own country). Subsequent returns would get them successive sentences 5, 10, 15, etc. years
