If you think taxes should be raised...

[pegwinn]

Oh. There are plenty of callous whoppers that have no problem with giving it to the little guys. Here is a classic:

This is what really irks me. Shouldn’t the powerful decision-making CEOs be the ones to suffer financially if the decisions that they make cause heavy losses and result in bankruptcy? It is sad when the little guy who does not have much of a say in a company gets in trouble when the powers that be make bad decisions. What is your opinion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines#Bankruptcy_and_reorganization

United took advantage of its Chapter 11 status to negotiate hard-to-cut costs with employees, suppliers, and contractors, including cancellation of feeder contracts with United Express Atlantic Coast Airlines (which became Independence Air) and Air Wisconsin (which became a US Airways Express carrier).

Most controversial of all, however, was the 2005 cancellation of its pension plan, the largest such default in U.S. corporate history (yeah, but I can’t default on my promises to pay my credit card debt or my home mortgage). It renegotiated its contracts with the pilots' and mechanics' unions for lower pay; however, the Association of Flight Attendants resisted until the bankruptcy court ruled in United's favor. Criticism was also leveled at the CEO, Glenn Tilton, for demanding pay cuts from employees while receiving the highest salary of any major U.S. airline CEO.

What a creep! How could he get away with that?!

Well you will be happy to know that since the athletes and steroids hearings were so popular, congress has a new series for the spring..... CEO compensation hearings.
I'm sure that the general welfare clause covers this as well.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Actually, if the money we currently paid in taxes was better managed we would not have a problem would we? Would it matter if that money was used for social programs if the amount was not raised?

Of course, the top ten percentile do not pay their fair share in taxes.

The top 10% pay 72% of all taxes paid. The top 5% pay 57% and the top 1% pay 38%. So how much should the top 10% pay? The bottom NINETY PERCENT pay a paltry 28%. BTW the top HALF pay 97% of all taxes in the US. The bottom half pay 3%, which essentially means, the bottom half in this country pay NOTHING.

 

[maineman]

The top 10% pay 72% of all taxes paid. The top 5% pay 57% and the top 1% pay 38%. So how much should the top 10% pay? The bottom NINETY PERCENT pay a paltry 28%. BTW the top HALF pay 97% of all taxes in the US. The bottom half pay 3%, which essentially means, the bottom half in this country pay NOTHING.

and relatively speaking, they live on nothing...so what is your fucking point?

 

[Zoomie1980]

Well you will be happy to know that since the athletes and steroids hearings were so popular, congress has a new series for the spring..... CEO compensation hearings.
I'm sure that the general welfare clause covers this as well.

While I have a MAJOR issue with executive compensation, the notion of a collection of corrupt politicians investigating compensation corruption among executives is comical.

 

[jreeves]

Oh. There are plenty of callous whoppers that have no problem with giving it to the little guys. Here is a classic:

This is what really irks me. Shouldn’t the powerful decision-making CEOs be the ones to suffer financially if the decisions that they make cause heavy losses and result in bankruptcy? It is sad when the little guy who does not have much of a say in a company gets in trouble when the powers that be make bad decisions. What is your opinion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines#Bankruptcy_and_reorganization

United took advantage of its Chapter 11 status to negotiate hard-to-cut costs with employees, suppliers, and contractors, including cancellation of feeder contracts with United Express Atlantic Coast Airlines (which became Independence Air) and Air Wisconsin (which became a US Airways Express carrier).

Most controversial of all, however, was the 2005 cancellation of its pension plan, the largest such default in U.S. corporate history (yeah, but I can’t default on my promises to pay my credit card debt or my home mortgage). It renegotiated its contracts with the pilots' and mechanics' unions for lower pay; however, the Association of Flight Attendants resisted until the bankruptcy court ruled in United's favor. Criticism was also leveled at the CEO, Glenn Tilton, for demanding pay cuts from employees while receiving the highest salary of any major U.S. airline CEO.

What a creep! How could he get away with that?!

Umm....aren't CEO's elected by their shareholders...sounds like its the shareholder's problem not the government's problem or yours for that matter.

 

[Zoomie1980]

and relatively speaking, they live on nothing...so what is your fucking point?

The very poorest of the poor in this country (bottom 20% not 50%) still:

1) Own their own car
2) Have a roof over their head
2) Are NOT starving, in fact are the most OVERWEIGHT segment of our society
3) Have a microwave oven
4) Have a cell phone
5) Have cable TV.

That's an awful lot of stuff for someone making nothing. Now the terrorist victims of Darfur are really poor and live on nothing....

You're are simply an idiot. For I can't explain your reaction any other way.

 

[maineman]

The very poorest of the poor in this country (bottom 20% not 50%) still:

1) Own their own car
2) Have a roof over their head
2) Are NOT starving, in fact are the most OVERWEIGHT segment of our society
3) Have a microwave oven
4) Have a cell phone
5) Have cable TV.

That's an awful lot of stuff for someone making nothing. Now the terrorist victims of Darfur are really poor and live on nothing....

You're are simply an idiot. For I can't explain your reaction any other way.

and the bottom 20% pay a little bit in taxes - if not income taxes, then certainly sales taxes (a regressive tax). the top 10% are so filthy rich they could afford to give the government another 3% of their net income and would not feel a fucking thing.... and the fact that YOU can't explain something does not make ME the idiot.

you fucking moron.

and the reason they are overweight is because of poor nutrition... chitlins cost less than sushi

 

[Zoomie1980]

and the bottom 20% pay a little bit in taxes - if not income taxes, then certainly sales taxes (a regressive tax). the top 10% are so filthy rich they could afford to give the government another 3% of their net income and would not feel a fucking thing.... and the fact that YOU can't explain something does not make ME the idiot.

you fucking moron.

So what annual income would say is "filthy" rich. Do you even have any remote idea what a family income is right on the top 10% even is? Probably not.

I'm sure I pay more in taxes in a year than the vast majority of the people on this forum make in a year, probably as much as many make in three years. And I know for a fact I could do a great deal more social good spending my taxes on social needs than the largely DISFUNCTIONAL Federal government ever could. And what did I fail to explain? Demonstrating your complete idiocy obviously wasn't it....

 

[jreeves]

and the bottom 20% pay a little bit in taxes - if not income taxes, then certainly sales taxes (a regressive tax). the top 10% are so filthy rich they could afford to give the government another 3% of their net income and would not feel a fucking thing.... and the fact that YOU can't explain something does not make ME the idiot.

you fucking moron.

and the reason they are overweight is because of poor nutrition... chitlins cost less than sushi

Dude get a clue taxes shouldn't redistribute income, for one its freaking stealing, also its failed policy. There is no incentative to achieve anything, if you pay 30 percent to the government to support social welfare. Socialism is failed policy...would you like to see some articles???

 

[pegwinn]

Actually, if the money we currently paid in taxes was better managed we would not have a problem would we? Would it matter if that money was used for social programs if the amount was not raised?

Of course, the top ten percentile do not pay their fair share in taxes.

I like how you throw in the last line without any proof. Define "fair share".

and relatively speaking, they live on nothing...so what is your fucking point?

His fucking point is that the current tax system is confiscatory enough. If you don't like it, so what? You could uh, oh I know..... Move to Europe

While I have a MAJOR issue with executive compensation, the notion of a collection of corrupt politicians investigating compensation corruption among executives is comical.

I have no issue with compensation. You should get what you can. It seems hypocritical to me to be upset with CEO's for doing what any normal person would do. I do get upset on a case by case basis. But as a general rule I'd rather not allow Congress to set both a minimum and a maximum wage law.

 

[pegwinn]

and the bottom 20% pay a little bit in taxes - if not income taxes, then certainly sales taxes (a regressive tax). the top 10% are so filthy rich they could afford to give the government another 3% of their net income and would not feel a fucking thing.... and the fact that YOU can't explain something does not make ME the idiot.

you fucking moron.

and the reason they are overweight is because of poor nutrition... chitlins cost less than sushi

You have forgotten that we live in America. You know, the land of unlimited opportunity? By demanding the wealthy pay more, you are advocating theft as well as sending a message that mediocrity is the best way to be. NEither rich nor poor.

Why is a sales tax regressive, and why is "regressive" a dirty word? Assume that I have no college education and that I learn by asking the "stupid" questions until learning occurs.

I work in a poor section of town. Crack houses and fo dollah ho's walking the street and an overcrowded Salvation Army shelter. They aint eating chitluns. They are eating twinkies as they sit inside the house with the AC on watching cable TV chanting "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry"

 

[Annie]

You have forgotten that we live in America. You know, the land of unlimited opportunity? By demanding the wealthy pay more, you are advocating theft as well as sending a message that mediocrity is the best way to be. NEither rich nor poor.

Why is a sales tax regressive, and why is "regressive" a dirty word? Assume that I have no college education and that I learn by asking the "stupid" questions until learning occurs.

I work in a poor section of town. Crack houses and fo dollah ho's walking the street and an overcrowded Salvation Army shelter. They aint eating chitluns. They are eating twinkies as they sit inside the house with the AC on watching cable TV chanting "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry"

speaking of condescending...

 

[JeffWartman]

and the bottom 20% pay a little bit in taxes - if not income taxes, then certainly sales taxes (a regressive tax). the top 10% are so filthy rich they could afford to give the government another 3% of their net income and would not feel a fucking thing.... and the fact that YOU can't explain something does not make ME the idiot.

you fucking moron.

and the reason they are overweight is because of poor nutrition... chitlins cost less than sushi

Yet you conveniently ignore the overall point: the poor in the United States generally are better off than the poor in most other countries.

Besides, this is a moral point. You believe that government has the right to take money out a person's paycheck without consent and distribute it arbitrarily. I believe, however, that no one has the moral right over my labor or the product of my labor. End of story.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yet you conveniently ignore the overall point: the poor in the United States generally are better off than the poor in most other countries.

Besides, this is a moral point. You believe that government has the right to take money out a person's paycheck without consent and distribute it arbitrarily. I believe, however, that no one has the moral right over my labor or the product of my labor. End of story.

Taxes are legal and are a power the people gave the Government. However what the Government can tax FOR and what it can spend ON are the question.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

In section 9 is this gem...

No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html#section8

Clearly taxation is allowed and was authorized to the Federal Government by the States through the people of the States.

Amendment 16 clarifies that Income tax is authorized. Though it was not really needed. It WAS ratified and anyone that claims otherwise needs to actually prove it was not. If I have to I will go get the ratification information.

What does that leave us with?

That leaves us with the fact that the FEDERAL Government has NO AUTHORITY to tax for the purpose of , nor pay out moneys for the purpose of, Social programs to general citizens of the Country. No authority to create the Social Security program or Medicare. No authority to create welfare payments. No authority to pay for school at ANY level for private citizens, neither through loans or grants. No authority to create health insurance nor pay for through any means health coverage for private citizens of the Country.

The Federal Government can do these things as payment incentive or retirement packages for employees of the Government or military and one could argue they could do so for the citizenry that were legal residents of Washington DC. BUT no authority exists for private citizens to receive these payments in anyway.

There is no authority to create and run housing projects or payments to States to run such programs No authority to pay out Federal funds in anyway to the States for these programs or for the Federal Government to tax for nor pay for these as Federal programs.

Every Social Program that involves any Federal Funds or Federal oversight or Federal laws is Unconstitutional. These programs must be authorized by individual amendments or one over riding amendment that the people authorize through the Amendment process to the Constitution.

There are no grounds to complain about Individual taxes , though there are grounds to refuse to pay Medicare and Social Security taxes. We need to fight the Government in the proper places and against the proper Unconstitutional powers they have usurped.

The argument is NOT that the Government can not taxes us. Never has been. Such an argument is rightfully put down in any court.

We need to FORCE the Courts to JUSTIFY the illegal powers the Government has seized so that we can then proclaim the Courts are also the problem. We need to force the people that claim that the "general welfare" of the Country allows these usurptions are wrong and that the courts are wrong if they agree.

Either the Government puts forth an Amendment to allow it the power it has seized or it MUST cease and desist in these practices. Failure to do so should result in an overthrow of an Unconstitutional Government.

The first course is through the courts, if and when that fails the second course is to demand the amendments, if that fails then rebellion is required.

 

[Taomon]

The top 10% pay 72% of all taxes paid. The top 5% pay 57% and the top 1% pay 38%. So how much should the top 10% pay? The bottom NINETY PERCENT pay a paltry 28%. BTW the top HALF pay 97% of all taxes in the US. The bottom half pay 3%, which essentially means, the bottom half in this country pay NOTHING.

And where are you getting your figures from? How do tax shelters and Bush's tax cuts factor into those figures?

 

[Taomon]

I work in a poor section of town. Crack houses and fo dollah ho's walking the street and an overcrowded Salvation Army shelter. They aint eating chitluns. They are eating twinkies as they sit inside the house with the AC on watching cable TV chanting "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry"

You are both right, the poor are obese because of poor nutrition...and junk food costs less and lasts longer than fresh fruits & vegetables.

 

[JeffWartman]

Taxes are legal and are a power the people gave the Government. However what the Government can tax FOR and what it can spend ON are the question.

I think you need better reading comprehension. The legality of taxes has nothing to do with my post. I was discussion the morality of taxes, which isn't even close to the same.

Sheesh. You seem to have serious problems with complex discussions.

 

[Paulie]

You are both right, the poor are obese because of poor nutrition...and junk food costs less and lasts longer than fresh fruits & vegetables.

A bit over-generalized.

People in general are obese for those reasons, but it isn't limited to any specific group of people. This country as a whole is lazy. Laziness contributes to bad diets, and lack of exercise. Those 2 things are the main contributors to weight gain. When those 2 things are in excess, they contribute to obesity.

There aer plenty of poor people who are not fat at all, and still eat like crap. It's also genetic, and relies on the specific metabolism of each individual.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I think you need better reading comprehension. The legality of taxes has nothing to do with my post. I was discussion the morality of taxes, which isn't even close to the same.

Sheesh. You seem to have serious problems with complex discussions.

Governments and taxes do not have morals. You seem to think a Government is a person.

It is simple, you can keep whining and crying you shouldn't pay taxes because it is theft or you can go about ensuring the taxes are spent as required on legal and authorized things. Get rid of the illegal and you get rid of the taxes that were needed to pay for them.

This Country was not created because our ancestors revolted against taxes, they revolted against NO representation on why and how taxes were spent.

 

[Paulie]

Governments and taxes do not have morals. You seem to think a Government is a person.

It is simple, you can keep whining and crying you shouldn't pay taxes because it is theft or you can go about ensuring the taxes are spent as required on legal and authorized things. Get rid of the illegal and you get rid of the taxes that were needed to pay for them.

This Country was not created because our ancestors revolted against taxes, they revolted against NO representation on why and how taxes were spent.

Our taxes are spent paying off interest to the Federal Reserve. Anything else spent, is either borrowed or printed/created on balance sheets.

And I'd say that we have almost no representation as far as that's concerned, because there's really only one person in congress who challenges that, and you know who that is.