If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[Vidi]

The important difference is that acid rain caused quantifiable damage, CO2, not so much.

Now THAT, sir, is a matter of opinion.

Please quantify the damage.

Well, one in particular "damage" may actually work out to Americas advantage.

The Glacial on the Tibetan plateu is near gone. It feeds the Yellow and Yangtse rivers. The Yellow and Yangtse rivers provide irrigation for the majority of the rice production in China. When the glacier is gone, the rivers will dry up.

China has been working diligently to pioneer dry rice production, but the yields have not been promising, only about 20-30% of normal yield.

How this could be good for us is within 20 years the Chinese are going to be desperate for grains. We simply tell the farmers we currently pay not to grow, to grow wheat and ship it to China to pay our debt 25 cents on the dollar.

Like I said, its a matter of opinion if Global Climate Change is caused by C02 emissions. Theres data that supports both sides.

It comes down to the individual as to whos data you believe.

 

[usmcstinger]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Deception:

Entitlement programs are bringing Europe to it's knees. National Health Care has become unsustainable. If you don't get it Germany, Great Britain and France finally have.
Germany
Chancellor Merkel, something of a political acrobat, was previously allied in coalition with leftist Social Democrats. She's now resisting calls from the Free Democrats to get off the state-pulled health-care train. The FDP's spokesman on health, Daniel Bahr, wants a "shift in direction away from state-run medicine." Why? Because "the current financial figures have showed us that the health-care fund doesn't work."
Germany's Socialized Health-Care System Isn't Working - WSJ.com

Great Britain
In a document, or white paper, outlining the plan, the government admitted that the changes would “cause significant disruption and loss of jobs.” But it said: “The current architecture of the health system has developed piecemeal, involves duplication and is unwieldy. Liberating the N.H.S., and putting power in the hands of patients and clinicians, means we will be able to effect a radical simplification, and remove layers of management.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

France
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

The price a country pays for Health Care per person is not as important as their ability to pay that price, dimwit. Some countries are wealthier than others based on their GNP. Think about that relevance.

Ok Brainless: Below is the updated information that you failed find.

France: 2007-3679 2008-3809 2009-3978 Total Increase = 299
Germany: 3724 3963 4218 494
UK: 3051 3281 3487 436

OECD iLibrary: Statistics / Health: Key Tables from OECD / Total expenditure on health per capita 2011

France's Government is based on the French Constitution of the fifth Republic, UK is a Constitutional Monarchy and Common Wealth Realm, Germany is a Federal Republic and the USA is a Constitutional Republic Governed By The Rule OF LAW.
A Democracy is a different type of Government that is not interchangeable with any of the governments listed above. You need to find out about that information.

You should sue the schools or any Institution of Higher Learning ( if you got that far ) you attended for failing to educate you.

 

[taichiliberal]

.YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Pot, meet kettle....

the chronology of the posts shows that I already kicked this dopey assed "Rabbi" to the curb when he couldn't refute the FACTS I initially responded to him with. Now all he's got is childish retorts with accompanying lies and regurgitation. pathetic.

 

[The Rabbi]

.YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Pot, meet kettle....

the chronology of the posts shows that I already kicked this dopey assed "Rabbi" to the curb when he couldn't refute the FACTS I initially responded to him with. Now all he's got is childish retorts with accompanying lies and regurgitation. pathetic.

You've never presented a fact in all your worthless time here. Why do you think you started now?

 

[starcraftzzz]

You've never presented a fact in all your worthless time here. Why do you think you started now?

Well that is you think that reality is not a fact but worhtless

 

[taichiliberal]

What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....

LOL!

It's economy was ALREADY SHAKY to begin with, you chuckling chowderhead! Having Goldman Sachs cook the books to be admitted to the EU put the nail in the coffin, because the EU banks got screwed win the housing mortgage toxic packages. A matter of fact, a matter of history. But you've already been schooled on this http://www.usmessageboard.com/5008101-post416.html

This is the problem with dumbass neocon/teabagger/libertarian parrots like YOU, Todd...YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Greece was weakened by entering the EU?

As the chronology of the posts shows, folks, Todd doesn't have the stones or the brains to debate an issue once he's presented with information that disproves his beliefs. Note how Todd leaves out parts of sentences and paragraphs that don't jibe with his agenda....a pretty lame tactic on Todd's part when all the reader has to do is click back to the original post and see Todd's dishonest attempt to misrepresent the conclusion of a response.

Pretty lame on your part, Todd. But I expect nothing less from you. You may repeat your toddler BS.

 

[taichiliberal]

YOU FUCKING IDIOT! YOU ALREADY 'PICK UP THE TAB' FOR THE MEDICAL EXPENSIVES OF EVERY UNINSURED PERSON WHO HITS THE LOCAL EMERGENCY ROOM OF A HOSPITAL!

First of all this simply isn't true. When the shouting dies down we see that most uninsured medical expenses are paid - something like two-thirds in the study I read. Granted that does leave a significant portion who default or don't pay all their bills, but these aren't the people who will be buying insurance because of the mandate. These are the people too poor to buy insurance or people who are shut out of the insurance game due to pre-existing conditions. The question is, what should we do about those people?

Let's go ahead and presume government should do something about it ('cause clearly government is there to solve all our problems). If that's the goal, we should take all the money the PPACA shovels into the coffers of the insurance industry and instead give it directly the the people currently shut out of insurance to spend on medical care (not for insurance). We could do a helluva job beefing up the safety net with all the money we're getting ready to flush down the toilet on the ACA. Then, for the rest of us, we can address the other urgent problem, runaway health care inflation, with real market reforms to bring prices down. The point is, they're two different problems that demand different solutions.

But...But...But....That means everyone who doesn't carry insurance isn't an outright deadbeat, which totally puts the lie to the myth perpetrated and furthered by the medical Marxists.

We just can't have that!

dblack is as big a chucklehead as you are, my Odd little man...he likes to treat his personal supposition and conjecture as fact, along with his conservative myopic view of an issue...this is why I have him on IA.

But I have hopes even for willfully ignorand dullards like YOU, Oddball. Here's a little history lesson that should counter-act the right wing bilge dblack just fed you:

Number of uninsured Americans hits record high - Health - Health care - msnbc.com

Number of uninsured climbs to highest figure since passage of Medicare, Medicaid | Physicians for a National Health Program

How Does Growth in Health Care Costs Affect the American Family? | RAND

 

[taichiliberal]

It's economy was ALREADY SHAKY to begin with, you chuckling chowderhead! Having Goldman Sachs cook the books to be admitted to the EU put the nail in the coffin, because the EU banks got screwed win the housing mortgage toxic packages. A matter of fact, a matter of history. But you've already been schooled on this http://www.usmessageboard.com/5008101-post416.html

This is the problem with dumbass neocon/teabagger/libertarian parrots like YOU, Todd...YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Greece was weakened by entering the EU?

It was weak to begin with. Then it hid its debt, with the help of Goldman Sachs, incurring more debt in the process.

Many of the people on my side make the mistake that is was Goldman that "caused" the Greek crisis, it's blatantly untrue. The issue with Holdman is that while Greece was a client, they bet against them and profited from it, which means they weren't serving their clients best interests in the matter. Not sure insider trading would apply in that case either.

But while we may see that as unethical, we don't know what went on behind closed doors and what warnings Goldman may have or not given to the Greek government.

If you backtrack the posts, you'll note that Todd edits out the rest of my response.

Again and again, I never stated that Goldman Sachs was solely responsible for Greece's problems. I've stated time and again that Goldman's book cooking got Greece into the EU WHEN IT SHOULDN'T HAVE DUE TO IT'S ALREADY WEAK ECONOMY. Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake, and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

Follow the chronology of the posts and you'll see the intellectual dishonesty of Todd and his buddies.

 

[taichiliberal]

You've never presented a fact in all your worthless time here. Why do you think you started now?

Well that is you think that reality is not a fact but worhtless

The chronology of the posts shows the "rabbi" to be a rabid liar...but that's all intellectually bankrupt neocon cretins have....constant repetition of their failed ideology and then denying/lying about any facts to the contrary. I pity the synagog that has this dope as their "rabbi".

http://www.usmessageboard.com/5015743-post464.html

 

[Vidi]

Deception:

Entitlement programs are bringing Europe to it's knees. National Health Care has become unsustainable. If you don't get it Germany, Great Britain and France finally have.
Germany
Chancellor Merkel, something of a political acrobat, was previously allied in coalition with leftist Social Democrats. She's now resisting calls from the Free Democrats to get off the state-pulled health-care train. The FDP's spokesman on health, Daniel Bahr, wants a "shift in direction away from state-run medicine." Why? Because "the current financial figures have showed us that the health-care fund doesn't work."
Germany's Socialized Health-Care System Isn't Working - WSJ.com

Great Britain
In a document, or white paper, outlining the plan, the government admitted that the changes would “cause significant disruption and loss of jobs.” But it said: “The current architecture of the health system has developed piecemeal, involves duplication and is unwieldy. Liberating the N.H.S., and putting power in the hands of patients and clinicians, means we will be able to effect a radical simplification, and remove layers of management.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

France
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

The price a country pays for Health Care per person is not as important as their ability to pay that price, dimwit. Some countries are wealthier than others based on their GNP. Think about that relevance.

Ok Brainless: Below is the updated information that you failed find.

France: 2007-3679 2008-3809 2009-3978 Total Increase = 299
Germany: 3724 3963 4218 494
UK: 3051 3281 3487 436

OECD iLibrary: Statistics / Health: Key Tables from OECD / Total expenditure on health per capita 2011

France's Government is based on the French Constitution of the fifth Republic, UK is a Constitutional Monarchy and Common Wealth Realm, Germany is a Federal Republic and the USA is a Constitutional Republic Governed By The Rule OF LAW.
A Democracy is a different type of Government that is not interchangeable with any of the governments listed above. You need to find out about that information.

You should sue the schools or any Institution of Higher Learning ( if you got that far ) you attended for failing to educate you.

Using your own link, the total increase in cost in the US from 2007 to 2009 is nearly $900.

What point are you trying to make?

A little clarification please

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's economy was ALREADY SHAKY to begin with, you chuckling chowderhead! Having Goldman Sachs cook the books to be admitted to the EU put the nail in the coffin, because the EU banks got screwed win the housing mortgage toxic packages. A matter of fact, a matter of history. But you've already been schooled on this http://www.usmessageboard.com/5008101-post416.html

This is the problem with dumbass neocon/teabagger/libertarian parrots like YOU, Todd...YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Greece was weakened by entering the EU?

As the chronology of the posts shows, folks, Todd doesn't have the stones or the brains to debate an issue once he's presented with information that disproves his beliefs. Note how Todd leaves out parts of sentences and paragraphs that don't jibe with his agenda....a pretty lame tactic on Todd's part when all the reader has to do is click back to the original post and see Todd's dishonest attempt to misrepresent the conclusion of a response.

Pretty lame on your part, Todd. But I expect nothing less from you. You may repeat your toddler BS.

If you won't prove your claim, you should run away again.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Greece was weakened by entering the EU?

It was weak to begin with. Then it hid its debt, with the help of Goldman Sachs, incurring more debt in the process.

Many of the people on my side make the mistake that is was Goldman that "caused" the Greek crisis, it's blatantly untrue. The issue with Holdman is that while Greece was a client, they bet against them and profited from it, which means they weren't serving their clients best interests in the matter. Not sure insider trading would apply in that case either.

But while we may see that as unethical, we don't know what went on behind closed doors and what warnings Goldman may have or not given to the Greek government.

If you backtrack the posts, you'll note that Todd edits out the rest of my response.

Again and again, I never stated that Goldman Sachs was solely responsible for Greece's problems. I've stated time and again that Goldman's book cooking got Greece into the EU WHEN IT SHOULDN'T HAVE DUE TO IT'S ALREADY WEAK ECONOMY. Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake, and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

Follow the chronology of the posts and you'll see the intellectual dishonesty of Todd and his buddies.

Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake,

Icing on what cake? Spell it out.

and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

If the EU banks weren't weakened, Greece wouldn't have a crisis?
Another interesting claim with no proof.

 

[Vidi]

It was weak to begin with. Then it hid its debt, with the help of Goldman Sachs, incurring more debt in the process.

Many of the people on my side make the mistake that is was Goldman that "caused" the Greek crisis, it's blatantly untrue. The issue with Holdman is that while Greece was a client, they bet against them and profited from it, which means they weren't serving their clients best interests in the matter. Not sure insider trading would apply in that case either.

But while we may see that as unethical, we don't know what went on behind closed doors and what warnings Goldman may have or not given to the Greek government.

If you backtrack the posts, you'll note that Todd edits out the rest of my response.

Again and again, I never stated that Goldman Sachs was solely responsible for Greece's problems. I've stated time and again that Goldman's book cooking got Greece into the EU WHEN IT SHOULDN'T HAVE DUE TO IT'S ALREADY WEAK ECONOMY. Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake, and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

Follow the chronology of the posts and you'll see the intellectual dishonesty of Todd and his buddies.

Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake,

Icing on what cake? Spell it out.

and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

If the EU banks weren't weakened, Greece wouldn't have a crisis?
Another interesting claim with no proof.

I think he's saying that hiding their debt with the help of Goldman was icing on the cake, but I also think he means straw that broke the camels back.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you backtrack the posts, you'll note that Todd edits out the rest of my response.

Again and again, I never stated that Goldman Sachs was solely responsible for Greece's problems. I've stated time and again that Goldman's book cooking got Greece into the EU WHEN IT SHOULDN'T HAVE DUE TO IT'S ALREADY WEAK ECONOMY. Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake, and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

Follow the chronology of the posts and you'll see the intellectual dishonesty of Todd and his buddies.

Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake,

Icing on what cake? Spell it out.

and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

If the EU banks weren't weakened, Greece wouldn't have a crisis?
Another interesting claim with no proof.

I think he's saying that hiding their debt with the help of Goldman was icing on the cake, but I also think he means straw that broke the camels back.

Hiding your debt doesn't make your debt bigger.
Thanks for trying to help him, he needs it.

 

[Vidi]

Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake,

Icing on what cake? Spell it out.

and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

If the EU banks weren't weakened, Greece wouldn't have a crisis?
Another interesting claim with no proof.

I think he's saying that hiding their debt with the help of Goldman was icing on the cake, but I also think he means straw that broke the camels back.

Hiding your debt doesn't make your debt bigger.
Thanks for trying to help him, he needs it.

Actually, I think the way this deal was structured it did. But thats not saying that the deal was what broke Greece, in fact, it's impact on Greeces overall economic stability was minimal...If anything, entrance into the EU should have given it more stability.

My issue with Goldman Sachs in this matter is that, after getting access to Greeces books, they bet against Greece and profited from it. I do not know if that would be considered insider trading, but it sure ain't cool.

ETA: that and the fact that helping Greece commit fraud on the EU essentially makes them accessories to that fraud.

 

[usmcstinger]

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

The price a country pays for Health Care per person is not as important as their ability to pay that price, dimwit. Some countries are wealthier than others based on their GNP. Think about that relevance.

Ok Brainless: Below is the updated information that you failed find.

France: 2007-3679 2008-3809 2009-3978 Total Increase = 299
Germany: 3724 3963 4218 494
UK: 3051 3281 3487 436

OECD iLibrary: Statistics / Health: Key Tables from OECD / Total expenditure on health per capita 2011

France's Government is based on the French Constitution of the fifth Republic, UK is a Constitutional Monarchy and Common Wealth Realm, Germany is a Federal Republic and the USA is a Constitutional Republic Governed By The Rule OF LAW.
A Democracy is a different type of Government that is not interchangeable with any of the governments listed above. You need to find out about that information.

You should sue the schools or any Institution of Higher Learning ( if you got that far ) you attended for failing to educate you.

Using your own link, the total increase in cost in the US from 2007 to 2009 is nearly $900.

What point are you trying to make?

A little clarification please[/QUOTE

No. I made my points. I am done with both of you.

 

[Vidi]

Both of us? Hmmm were you and I responding to each other, prior to that? If we were I missed it during the other back and firths in the thread.

I'm serious though. I respect the fact that you brought data to the table to back yourself up. But what was the point you were trying to make?

 

[taichiliberal]

It was weak to begin with. Then it hid its debt, with the help of Goldman Sachs, incurring more debt in the process.

Many of the people on my side make the mistake that is was Goldman that "caused" the Greek crisis, it's blatantly untrue. The issue with Holdman is that while Greece was a client, they bet against them and profited from it, which means they weren't serving their clients best interests in the matter. Not sure insider trading would apply in that case either.

But while we may see that as unethical, we don't know what went on behind closed doors and what warnings Goldman may have or not given to the Greek government.

If you backtrack the posts, you'll note that Todd edits out the rest of my response.

Again and again, I never stated that Goldman Sachs was solely responsible for Greece's problems. I've stated time and again that Goldman's book cooking got Greece into the EU WHEN IT SHOULDN'T HAVE DUE TO IT'S ALREADY WEAK ECONOMY. Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake, and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

Follow the chronology of the posts and you'll see the intellectual dishonesty of Todd and his buddies.

Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake,

Icing on what cake? Spell it out.

and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

If the EU banks weren't weakened, Greece wouldn't have a crisis?
Another interesting claim with no proof.

Only Todd would be stupid enough to say, "if there wasn't a problem in the first place, then there wouldn't be a crisis."

No shit sherlock! But alas, it is a matter of fact and history that Greece was in financial troubles prior to it's application to the EU. Goldman Sachs cooked the books, and Greece got it....then the US toxic housing market package got into the international financial market, the EU banks got screwed, and those who were already in trouble got the brunt of it (i.e., GREECE).

As the chronology of the posts shows, I've documented this several times...but Todd REFUSES to acknowledge reality, and with the insipid stubborness of the willfully ignorant, Todd will just dig himself deeper into the hole of stupidity. Carry on.

 

[The Rabbi]

Greece was weakened by entering the EU?

As the chronology of the posts shows, folks, Todd doesn't have the stones or the brains to debate an issue once he's presented with information that disproves his beliefs. Note how Todd leaves out parts of sentences and paragraphs that don't jibe with his agenda....a pretty lame tactic on Todd's part when all the reader has to do is click back to the original post and see Todd's dishonest attempt to misrepresent the conclusion of a response.

Pretty lame on your part, Todd. But I expect nothing less from you. You may repeat your toddler BS.

If you won't prove your claim, you should run away again.

It's easier to project failure on to others. Tooshieliberal doesnt know what he doesn't know.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you backtrack the posts, you'll note that Todd edits out the rest of my response.

Again and again, I never stated that Goldman Sachs was solely responsible for Greece's problems. I've stated time and again that Goldman's book cooking got Greece into the EU WHEN IT SHOULDN'T HAVE DUE TO IT'S ALREADY WEAK ECONOMY. Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake, and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

Follow the chronology of the posts and you'll see the intellectual dishonesty of Todd and his buddies.

Getting into the EU was the icing on the cake,

Icing on what cake? Spell it out.

and when the mortgage toxicity hit the EU banks, Greece (the weakest link) went down for the count.

If the EU banks weren't weakened, Greece wouldn't have a crisis?
Another interesting claim with no proof.

Only Todd would be stupid enough to say, "if there wasn't a problem in the first place, then there wouldn't be a crisis."

No shit sherlock! But alas, it is a matter of fact and history that Greece was in financial troubles prior to it's application to the EU. Goldman Sachs cooked the books, and Greece got it....then the US toxic housing market package got into the international financial market, the EU banks got screwed, and those who were already in trouble got the brunt of it (i.e., GREECE).

As the chronology of the posts shows, I've documented this several times...but Todd REFUSES to acknowledge reality, and with the insipid stubborness of the willfully ignorant, Todd will just dig himself deeper into the hole of stupidity. Carry on.

Excellent! Greece was in trouble before.
Getting into the EU benefitted Greece.
Greece is not bankrupt because of Goldman.
Greece is not bankrupt because of the EU.
Greece is not bankrupt because of the financial crisis.
Greece is bankrupt because too many Greeks get too many benefits and too few Greeks pay into the system.
Obama is trying to put us on the same path. Hopefully he will fail.
Carry on.