If statism is progress, why is history full of statism

[Tehon]

Conservatives typically want more military funding, that's statism too, no?

I think statist policies would be those that separate people from their own self determination and self reliance and make them more dependent on the Government. I think that would be a generalization anyway and I don't believe that simply funding military does that.

This makes sense. Statist policies would be those actions that seek to remove we the people from our liberty.

 

[Tehon]

S

The question is, does the constitution prohibit it?

The Constitution states what government can do. The government is limited to doing only what is specifically stated. Of course, this means nothing today in the age of unlimited government.

The constitution is an outline for the separation of powers and it included a Bill of Rights that prohibits government encroachment on natural rights.

It gives the power to tax exclusively to the congress.

Why have you chosen to change the subject?

Read the 10th amendment. It clearly states the federal government is limited by the powers specified in the Constitution. As such, your earlier question whether the Constitution prohibits federal aid, is misguided.

The constitution vested congress with the power.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,

So? This merely makes my point. The government can only do what is specified by the Constitution...well it is supposed to....but today this is ignored.

Where does it specify that the government can provide aid to anyone? Of course, the general welfare clause has been bastardized to mean all sorts of things.

It doesn't make your point. It is given to congress to collect taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare. We the people determine what is our general welfare. It is not concrete.

 

[gipper]

Conservatives typically want more military funding, that's statism too, no?

I think statist policies would be those that separate people from their own self determination and self reliance and make them more dependent on the Government. I think that would be a generalization anyway and I don't believe that simply funding military does that.

This makes sense. Statist policies would be those actions that seek to remove we the people from our liberty.

And...that is what the central government does.

 

[KissMy]

You get a sense from conservatives that they have a utopian view of a perfect government and that somehow if they could just force that model on the population all would be 'great'. There are no perfect governments and never will be because they are not single entities they are made up of fallible corruptible human beings. And the very nature of government, the concentration of vast power and vast wealth draws the very people you don't want to have vast power and vast wealth. The greedy and the authoritarian. That doesn't mean all leaders are greedy or authoritarian it just means the payoff is what undesirable people crave. Hence you have corruption and cheating to gain that wealth and power and the best cheaters and most corrupt(ible), over time, gain those positions in government. Which fucks up the government, just as it does in corporations. Or any gathered group of humans who have no inner compass other than money or power.

Most forms of government would work but all of them are corrupted by the very flies drawn to the honey. The quotes on government are too numerous to list, thankfully they are readily available online.

“The heaviest penalty for declining to rule is to be ruled by someone inferior to yourself.” - Plato -

And of course “Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill -

Government sucks always. When it becomes unlimited, as our government is today, it really sucks.

A better question is why do leftists think government of the elite, by the elite, and for the elite is good and necessary, when all of civilized history clearly SHOUTS government is evil, unjust, and extremely murderous.

History apparently is unknown to leftists. Sadly, many on the right hold the same affliction.

Excuse me, but it's not leftist who support all powerful government police & military complex used to crush & murder the people.

 

[Tehon]

Conservatives typically want more military funding, that's statism too, no?

I think statist policies would be those that separate people from their own self determination and self reliance and make them more dependent on the Government. I think that would be a generalization anyway and I don't believe that simply funding military does that.

This makes sense. Statist policies would be those actions that seek to remove we the people from our liberty.

And...that is what the central government does.

I don't think so. We are not talking about freedom in the natural state. We live in a civil society.

THE natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but to have only the law of nature for his rule. The liberty of man, in society, is to be under no other legislative power, but that established, by consent, in the commonwealth; nor under the dominion of any will, or restraint of any law, but what that legislative shall enact, according to the trust put in it. Freedom then is not what Sir Robert Filmer tells us, Observations, A. 55. a liberty for every one to do what he lists, to live as he pleases, and not to be tied by any laws: but freedom of men under government is, to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power erected in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, where the rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary will of another man: as freedom of nature is, to be under no other restraint but the law of nature.


John Locke
Second Treatise of Civil Government

 

[gipper]

R

You get a sense from conservatives that they have a utopian view of a perfect government and that somehow if they could just force that model on the population all would be 'great'. There are no perfect governments and never will be because they are not single entities they are made up of fallible corruptible human beings. And the very nature of government, the concentration of vast power and vast wealth draws the very people you don't want to have vast power and vast wealth. The greedy and the authoritarian. That doesn't mean all leaders are greedy or authoritarian it just means the payoff is what undesirable people crave. Hence you have corruption and cheating to gain that wealth and power and the best cheaters and most corrupt(ible), over time, gain those positions in government. Which fucks up the government, just as it does in corporations. Or any gathered group of humans who have no inner compass other than money or power.

Most forms of government would work but all of them are corrupted by the very flies drawn to the honey. The quotes on government are too numerous to list, thankfully they are readily available online.

“The heaviest penalty for declining to rule is to be ruled by someone inferior to yourself.” - Plato -

And of course “Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill -

Government sucks always. When it becomes unlimited, as our government is today, it really sucks.

A better question is why do leftists think government of the elite, by the elite, and for the elite is good and necessary, when all of civilized history clearly SHOUTS government is evil, unjust, and extremely murderous.

History apparently is unknown to leftists. Sadly, many on the right hold the same affliction.

Excuse me, but it's not leftist who support all powerful government police & military complex used to crush & murder the people.

Please read the last sentence of my post which you replied to.

That stated, I disagree with you. Obama is the greatest surveillance asshole that ever lived. He certainly is not of the right, yet he pushed for greater government control of about everything. He renewed the Patriot Act and hardened it. He loved intervening militarily around the world. He droned people including American citizens.

You must come to realize there is little difference between Ds and Rs.

 

[gipper]

G

Conservatives typically want more military funding, that's statism too, no?

I think statist policies would be those that separate people from their own self determination and self reliance and make them more dependent on the Government. I think that would be a generalization anyway and I don't believe that simply funding military does that.

This makes sense. Statist policies would be those actions that seek to remove we the people from our liberty.

And...that is what the central government does.

I don't think so. We are not talking about freedom in the natural state. We live in a society.

THE natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but to have only the law of nature for his rule. The liberty of man, in society, is to be under no other legislative power, but that established, by consent, in the commonwealth; nor under the dominion of any will, or restraint of any law, but what that legislative shall enact, according to the trust put in it. Freedom then is not what Sir Robert Filmer tells us, Observations, A. 55. a liberty for every one to do what he lists, to live as he pleases, and not to be tied by any laws: but freedom of men under government is, to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power erected in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, where the rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary will of another man: as freedom of nature is, to be under no other restraint but the law of nature.


John Locke
Second Treatise of Civil Government

Government at it's essence is force.

I don't think we disagree...you just want to be disagreeable and continue to post statements of little relevance to our debate.

 

[jillian]

and it never ended well? Wouldnt PROGRESS be learning from our mistakes?
Do the regressives understand, in this country alone, most of what you bitch about came from the GOVERNMENT?

What's statism?

it's what lowlife Internet trolls call government.

 

[jillian]

and it never ended well? Wouldnt PROGRESS be learning from our mistakes?
Do the regressives understand, in this country alone, most of what you bitch about came from the GOVERNMENT?

You assume progressive morons have a brain.

as opposed to double digit IQ trumptards?

quiet, moron

 

[Tehon]

G

Conservatives typically want more military funding, that's statism too, no?

I think statist policies would be those that separate people from their own self determination and self reliance and make them more dependent on the Government. I think that would be a generalization anyway and I don't believe that simply funding military does that.

This makes sense. Statist policies would be those actions that seek to remove we the people from our liberty.

And...that is what the central government does.

I don't think so. We are not talking about freedom in the natural state. We live in a society.

THE natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but to have only the law of nature for his rule. The liberty of man, in society, is to be under no other legislative power, but that established, by consent, in the commonwealth; nor under the dominion of any will, or restraint of any law, but what that legislative shall enact, according to the trust put in it. Freedom then is not what Sir Robert Filmer tells us, Observations, A. 55. a liberty for every one to do what he lists, to live as he pleases, and not to be tied by any laws: but freedom of men under government is, to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power erected in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, where the rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary will of another man: as freedom of nature is, to be under no other restraint but the law of nature.


John Locke
Second Treatise of Civil Government

Government at it's essence is force.

I don't think we disagree...you just want to be disagreeable and continue to post statements of little relevance to our debate.

We don't necessarily disagree on your first point.

But I'm not being disagreeable without purpose and what I am posting is entirely relevant in that we are governed by consent. Which is the meaning of liberty in a civil society. And enshrined in the document that created our federal government.

If your argument is that the federal government seeks to deny us liberty, then you should demonstrate how.

 

[gipper]

G

I think statist policies would be those that separate people from their own self determination and self reliance and make them more dependent on the Government. I think that would be a generalization anyway and I don't believe that simply funding military does that.

This makes sense. Statist policies would be those actions that seek to remove we the people from our liberty.

And...that is what the central government does.

I don't think so. We are not talking about freedom in the natural state. We live in a society.

THE natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but to have only the law of nature for his rule. The liberty of man, in society, is to be under no other legislative power, but that established, by consent, in the commonwealth; nor under the dominion of any will, or restraint of any law, but what that legislative shall enact, according to the trust put in it. Freedom then is not what Sir Robert Filmer tells us, Observations, A. 55. a liberty for every one to do what he lists, to live as he pleases, and not to be tied by any laws: but freedom of men under government is, to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power erected in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, where the rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary will of another man: as freedom of nature is, to be under no other restraint but the law of nature.


John Locke
Second Treatise of Civil Government

Government at it's essence is force.

I don't think we disagree...you just want to be disagreeable and continue to post statements of little relevance to our debate.

We don't necessarily disagree on your first point.

But I'm not being disagreeable without purpose and what I am posting is entirely relevant in that we are governed by consent. Which is the meaning of liberty in a civil society. And enshrined in the document that created our federal government.

If your argument is that the federal government seeks to deny us liberty, then you should demonstrate how.

That last sentence indicates a terrible lack of understanding. I suspect you merely made a mistake. Right?

The federal government has been denying Americans their liberty for some time now. Where have you been?

What do you think their efforts at gun control and confiscation is all about? They spy on all of us. They impose new laws almost daily. It is said Americans unknowingly break the law as least three times every day.

 

[Tehon]

What do you think their efforts at gun control and confiscation is all about?

They are reacting to the will of the population. That's liberty.

They spy on all of us.

That is a definite infringement on our rights. It's too bad that we consented to the spy agencies. And then the agencies started taking advantage. And when we were informed of that, we remained mostly silent. Is that implied consent? We are still at liberty to demand change.

They impose new laws almost daily.

They do it with the consent of the governed. Liberty.

 

[gipper]

What do you think their efforts at gun control and confiscation is all about?

They are reacting to the will of the population. That's liberty.

They spy on all of us.

That is a definite infringement on our rights. It's too bad that we consented to the spy agencies. And then the agencies started taking advantage. And when we were informed of that, we remained mostly silent. Is that implied consent? We are still at liberty to demand change.

They impose new laws almost daily.

They do it with the consent of the governed. Liberty.

Apparently you can justify anything...but fail to see that it is government who is all about limiting the people's natural rights.

 

[Tehon]

What do you think their efforts at gun control and confiscation is all about?

They are reacting to the will of the population. That's liberty.

They spy on all of us.

That is a definite infringement on our rights. It's too bad that we consented to the spy agencies. And then the agencies started taking advantage. And when we were informed of that, we remained mostly silent. Is that implied consent? We are still at liberty to demand change.

They impose new laws almost daily.

They do it with the consent of the governed. Liberty.

Apparently you can justify anything...but fail to see that it is government who is all about limiting the people's natural rights.

We have the power to alter it. The problem is us. The government isn't going away anytime soon.

 

[gipper]

What do you think their efforts at gun control and confiscation is all about?

They are reacting to the will of the population. That's liberty.

They spy on all of us.

That is a definite infringement on our rights. It's too bad that we consented to the spy agencies. And then the agencies started taking advantage. And when we were informed of that, we remained mostly silent. Is that implied consent? We are still at liberty to demand change.

They impose new laws almost daily.

They do it with the consent of the governed. Liberty.

Apparently you can justify anything...but fail to see that it is government who is all about limiting the people's natural rights.

We have the power to alter it. The problem is us. The government isn't going away anytime soon.

You are dreaming.

 

[Tehon]

What do you think their efforts at gun control and confiscation is all about?

They are reacting to the will of the population. That's liberty.

They spy on all of us.

That is a definite infringement on our rights. It's too bad that we consented to the spy agencies. And then the agencies started taking advantage. And when we were informed of that, we remained mostly silent. Is that implied consent? We are still at liberty to demand change.

They impose new laws almost daily.

They do it with the consent of the governed. Liberty.

Apparently you can justify anything...but fail to see that it is government who is all about limiting the people's natural rights.

We have the power to alter it. The problem is us. The government isn't going away anytime soon.

You are dreaming.

I'm not optimistic. Just trying to shed a little bit of light on reality. There is so much propaganda in our world, people lose sight of it. And the vast majority of propaganda emanates from the private sector.

 

[gipper]

What do you think their efforts at gun control and confiscation is all about?

They are reacting to the will of the population. That's liberty.

They spy on all of us.

That is a definite infringement on our rights. It's too bad that we consented to the spy agencies. And then the agencies started taking advantage. And when we were informed of that, we remained mostly silent. Is that implied consent? We are still at liberty to demand change.

They impose new laws almost daily.

They do it with the consent of the governed. Liberty.

Apparently you can justify anything...but fail to see that it is government who is all about limiting the people's natural rights.

We have the power to alter it. The problem is us. The government isn't going away anytime soon.

You are dreaming.

I'm not optimistic. Just trying to shed a little bit of light on reality. There is so much propaganda in our world, people lose sight of it. And the vast majority of propaganda emanates from the private sector.

I can agree with much of that.

 

[gipper]

and it never ended well? Wouldnt PROGRESS be learning from our mistakes?
Do the regressives understand, in this country alone, most of what you bitch about came from the GOVERNMENT?

You assume progressive morons have a brain.

as opposed to double digit IQ trumptards?

quiet, moron

Silly Jilly stop being so silly. This topic is way over your little silly head.

 

[jillian]

and it never ended well? Wouldnt PROGRESS be learning from our mistakes?
Do the regressives understand, in this country alone, most of what you bitch about came from the GOVERNMENT?

You assume progressive morons have a brain.

as opposed to double digit IQ trumptards?

quiet, moron

Silly Jilly stop being so silly. This topic is way over your little silly head.

I know little boy... you've got nothing so you do the school year thing.

run along little boy... you're not smart enough to tie your own shoes. but again, it's so cute how you try to pretend you aren't a moron.

buh bye

 

[gipper]

and it never ended well? Wouldnt PROGRESS be learning from our mistakes?
Do the regressives understand, in this country alone, most of what you bitch about came from the GOVERNMENT?

You assume progressive morons have a brain.

as opposed to double digit IQ trumptards?

quiet, moron

Silly Jilly stop being so silly. This topic is way over your little silly head.

I know little boy... you've got nothing so you do the school year thing.

run along little boy... you're not smart enough to tie your own shoes. but again, it's so cute how you try to pretend you aren't a moron.

buh bye

Silly...put the gun down. It is not worth it.