If rights, whither from?

[antagon]

The determination of one's own acts according to one's own will is free will.
You're arguing that 'a line which is straight' isn't a straight line.

i'm not sure how you've drawn this idea of what i'm arguing.

the philosophy around natural rights dictates that self-determination is a condition. creatures possessing it will have to make the types of actions conditional to it of their own volition. by virtue of that, they cant be made to do anything but through coercion or threat of force, etc. actions are their say, their right, their natural right - by way of the capacity for self-determination. no society need be present to endow an individual natural rights. no math need prove it's existence. societies recognize that we possess these natural rights and project protections of a select few rights among their infinite spectrum and offer certain entitlements in exchange for these rights - either not to use them in the social context, or to actively use specific ones.

a slave is coerced by the relative comfort of food and maintaining the skin on his back, etc to actively use his will to do the work he is asked, and not to use his will to cut and run or revolt. in the end, as you know, it is his say, his natural right to act as he pleases. naive is the master or government which feels they possess the rights of others to this fundamental extent. they must maintain a rich coercive state to maintain control, as well as watching their back for those acting of their natural rights against the will of the master.

 

[antagon]

Here are our unalienable rights (along with life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) which are only mentioned in the DOI.

what about hate, anger, war, etc.... i believe we have natural rights to actions far beyond our feelings alone, and that there are degrees of alienability which can impact all of them to varied extents. i certainly disagree that our rights are all rose-tinted as your list indicates.

 

[JBeukema]

the philosophy around natural rights dictates that self-determination is a condition. creatures possessing it will have to make the types of actions conditional to it of their own volition. by virtue of that, they cant be made to do anything but through coercion or threat of force, etc.

Actually, if self-determination is a condition and creatures possessing it will have to make the types of actions conditional to it of their own volition, then they cannot be forced to act. At all. It's not possible. Else, if they can be forced to act, then they did not act in accordance with their free will, thereby refuting the claim that elf-determination is a condition and creatures possessing it will have to make the types of actions conditional to it of their own volition.

actions are their say, their right, their natural right

To assert that x necessarily does something in accordance with its nature (that such is a trait of x) doesn't demonstrate x's 'right' to do such a thing. It merely means x will do it as a necessary aspect of its character.

X will do what it does because it is necessarily a part of its nature, of what makes it x.

Stars will shine, homicidal maniacs will attempt homicide, and so on.

- by way of the capacity for self-determination. no society need be present to endow an individual natural rights.

Fail. A society can't present natural rights. By definition.

no math need prove it's existence. societies recognize that we possess these natural rights

Really? You sure you want to make such a statement?

Not all societies recognize all persons as having natural rights. Especially those outside of the ingroup.

a slave is coerced by the relative comfort of food and maintaining the skin on his back, etc to actively use his will to do the work he is asked, and not to use his will to cut and run or revolt. in the end, as you know, it is his say, his natural right to act as he pleases.

Nice job highlighting the social contract. But showing that it his decision to accept his lot rather than be shot does not demonstrate his 'natural right' to be a slave or to be or do anything else. You can't just demonstrate the social contract then make broad declarations of the metaphysical any more than one can point at burning wood and declare it proof of antigravity.

The term for what you're going is non sequitur

naive is the master or government which feels they possess the rights of others to this fundamental extent.

Who said anything of 'possessing the rights of others'?

they must maintain a rich coercive state to maintain control, as well as watching their back for those acting of their natural rights against the will of the master.

So it's using guns to coerce others and maintain control and keep things to your liking as opposed to using guns to coerce others and maintain control and keep things to your liking. Or maybe you've forgotten that even under the systems you people craft, there is still the need for coercion and the maintaining of order.

 

[xotoxi]

If rights, whither from?

Either hither or thither.

 

[sparky]

the notion that a human is born with some sort of celestial rights that government is obligated to (or at least fiegns along) is a scream here

how many of your rights fit on the head of a pin?

inquiring minds wanna know....

~S~

 

[Smartt33]

The definition of "inalienable" is:

Main Entry: in·alien·able
Pronunciation: \(&#716i-ˈnāl-yə-nə-bəl, -ˈnā-lē-ə-nə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
Date: circa 1645
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

These rights that are mentioned in the Decloration of Independence fit this definition. They cannot be surrendered, or transferred. They cannot be taken from us. Peace, love, joy, etc are all inalienable, and they are our blessings that allow for a wonderful life, even in the hard times.

I am sure you have seen or met people who just seem to allow everything to just roll by. They don't get all in a pickle when things go wrong. I believe it is faith, and that faith in God that makes these rights possible. While I have not developed these wonderful attributes totally, I do experience them, and have learned to allow them to operate in my life. Now I know that I can experience them willfully, even in the hard times. My life has had it's share of hard times.

BTW, these are not things that you can put to a scientific test, so no need asking for that.

 

[Smartt33]

Here are our unalienable rights (along with life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) which are only mentioned in the DOI.

what about hate, anger, war, etc.... i believe we have natural rights to actions far beyond our feelings alone, and that there are degrees of alienability which can impact all of them to varied extents. i certainly disagree that our rights are all rose-tinted as your list indicates.

I am glad you asked. We do have a right to those things, and we can harbor them in our hearts. However, rather than being rights, and unlike the Fruit of the Spirit, many discover that hate, anger, and the craving for war are more like masters in our life than freedoms. We become slaved to them.

 

[editec]

The definition of "inalienable" is:

Main Entry: in·alien·able
Pronunciation: \(&#716i-&#712;n&#257;l-y&#601;-n&#601;-b&#601;l, -&#712;n&#257;-l&#275;-&#601;-n&#601;-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
Date: circa 1645
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

These rights that are mentioned in the Decloration of Independence fit this definition. They cannot be surrendered, or transferred. They cannot be taken from us. Peace, love, joy, etc are all inalienable, and they are our blessings that allow for a wonderful life, even in the hard times.

I am sure you have seen or met people who just seem to allow everything to just roll by. They don't get all in a pickle when things go wrong. I believe it is faith, and that faith in God that makes these rights possible. While I have not developed these wonderful attributes totally, I do experience them, and have learned to allow them to operate in my life. Now I know that I can experience them willfully, even in the hard times. My life has had it's share of hard times.

BTW, these are not things that you can put to a scientific test, so no need asking for that.

Any idiot with a gun and the will to do so can alienate every right you think you have, Smartt.

The dead have NO rights.

 

[Intense]

When you deny Individual Right, where does that put you in relation to Tyranny, JB.

IDK.. where does laughing at the 'divine right of kings' put me?

You babble on about metaphysics; I focus on liberty and a good society.

I focus on the greatest Liberty of all JB, you focus on denying it's source. Who's babbling???

There are issues between God and Man, Individual Man, that are beyond the boundary and jurisdiction of any society. You are an individual first. It is the foundation of life, not an abstract. All is built on that foundation JB.

 

[Intense]

Is there any non-theological argument for human rights?

I'll take that as a 'no' from Intense.

Cause and effect. Consequence. Design. You reap what you sow. Human Nature Itself demands Justice, Balance, Truth, an Honest scale in the end JB, that is how we are designed. Misinformation, Manipulation, corrupts our judgement temporally, but in the end, balance is restored. Time works against Totalitarianism because of our Nature JB. We will survive it and hold it to account.

 

[Intense]

the notion that a human is born with some sort of celestial rights that government is obligated to (or at least fiegns along) is a scream here

how many of your rights fit on the head of a pin?

inquiring minds wanna know....

~S~

Government may piss on and abuse any and every decency known to man, but not without consequence. Do you really want to go there??? Is that the kind of world you want to live in???

You give vertebrae a bad name.

 

[Intense]

The definition of "inalienable" is:

Main Entry: in·alien·able
Pronunciation: \(&#716i-&#712;n&#257;l-y&#601;-n&#601;-b&#601;l, -&#712;n&#257;-l&#275;-&#601;-n&#601;-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
Date: circa 1645
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

These rights that are mentioned in the Decloration of Independence fit this definition. They cannot be surrendered, or transferred. They cannot be taken from us. Peace, love, joy, etc are all inalienable, and they are our blessings that allow for a wonderful life, even in the hard times.

I am sure you have seen or met people who just seem to allow everything to just roll by. They don't get all in a pickle when things go wrong. I believe it is faith, and that faith in God that makes these rights possible. While I have not developed these wonderful attributes totally, I do experience them, and have learned to allow them to operate in my life. Now I know that I can experience them willfully, even in the hard times. My life has had it's share of hard times.

BTW, these are not things that you can put to a scientific test, so no need asking for that.

Any idiot with a gun and the will to do so can alienate every right you think you have, Smartt.

The dead have NO rights.

Not without consequence, Einstein. As far as what comes after this life, I find your perspective lacking.

 

[Smartt33]

The definition of "inalienable" is:

Main Entry: in·alien·able
Pronunciation: \(&#716i-&#712;n&#257;l-y&#601;-n&#601;-b&#601;l, -&#712;n&#257;-l&#275;-&#601;-n&#601;-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
Date: circa 1645
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

These rights that are mentioned in the Decloration of Independence fit this definition. They cannot be surrendered, or transferred. They cannot be taken from us. Peace, love, joy, etc are all inalienable, and they are our blessings that allow for a wonderful life, even in the hard times.

I am sure you have seen or met people who just seem to allow everything to just roll by. They don't get all in a pickle when things go wrong. I believe it is faith, and that faith in God that makes these rights possible. While I have not developed these wonderful attributes totally, I do experience them, and have learned to allow them to operate in my life. Now I know that I can experience them willfully, even in the hard times. My life has had it's share of hard times.

BTW, these are not things that you can put to a scientific test, so no need asking for that.

Any idiot with a gun and the will to do so can alienate every right you think you have, Smartt.

The dead have NO rights.

Tell me how, if I love someone, they can remove that love from me. How can I transfer it to someone else? Have you seen the movie, "The End of the Spear"? It is a movie about missionaries who dearly loved those to whom they were ministering. The love they had was greater than "brotherly love." It ias "Agape" love. They died at the end of a spear, and by those people they loved, even at the point of their death.

The whole answer, we can relinquish that love by allowing anger and hate take over, however, if we choose, that love cannot be taken from us. The same with peace, joy, and the rest of the fruit of the Spirit. The above story can be multiplied hundreds of times over the world.

 

[Smartt33]

The definition of "inalienable" is:

Main Entry: in·alien·able
Pronunciation: \(&#716i-&#712;n&#257;l-y&#601;-n&#601;-b&#601;l, -&#712;n&#257;-l&#275;-&#601;-n&#601;-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
Date: circa 1645
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

These rights that are mentioned in the Decloration of Independence fit this definition. They cannot be surrendered, or transferred. They cannot be taken from us. Peace, love, joy, etc are all inalienable, and they are our blessings that allow for a wonderful life, even in the hard times.

I am sure you have seen or met people who just seem to allow everything to just roll by. They don't get all in a pickle when things go wrong. I believe it is faith, and that faith in God that makes these rights possible. While I have not developed these wonderful attributes totally, I do experience them, and have learned to allow them to operate in my life. Now I know that I can experience them willfully, even in the hard times. My life has had it's share of hard times.

BTW, these are not things that you can put to a scientific test, so no need asking for that.

Any idiot with a gun and the will to do so can alienate every right you think you have, Smartt.

The dead have NO rights.

Not without consequence, Einstein. As far as what comes after this life, I find your perspective lacking.

I'll not try to convince you, but I am convinced that after this body breathes it's last, eternity will ring in the most awesome life experiance imaginable. So, no, you cannot take my right or abulity to love away from me.

 

[JBeukema]

The definition of "inalienable" is:

Main Entry: in·alien·able
Pronunciation: \(&#716i-&#712;n&#257;l-y&#601;-n&#601;-b&#601;l, -&#712;n&#257;-l&#275;-&#601;-n&#601;-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
Date: circa 1645
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

These rights that are mentioned in the Decloration of Independence fit this definition. They cannot be surrendered, or transferred. They cannot be taken from us.

Life?

Capital punishment.

Liberty?

Imprisonment

Pursuit of Happiness?

Depends on what that entails

 

[JBeukema]

There are issues between God and Man, Individual Man, that are beyond the boundary and jurisdiction of any society.

And we have your answer

Is there any non-theological argument for human rights?

Intense: no

Those who claim 'natural rights' exist always return to attributing them to the metaphysical or the divine. Even if they existed, as metaphysical or divine things, they'd not be natural at all.

 

[Intense]

There are issues between God and Man, Individual Man, that are beyond the boundary and jurisdiction of any society.

And we have your answer

Is there any non-theological argument for human rights?

Intense: no

Those who claim 'natural rights' exist always return to attributing them to the metaphysical or the divine. Even if they existed, as metaphysical or divine things, they'd not be natural at all.

Fail.

All of Creation is accountable, that is the natural order.

 

[JBeukema]

They always end up back at religion...

 

[Smartt33]

The definition of "inalienable" is:

Main Entry: in·alien·able
Pronunciation: \(&#716i-&#712;n&#257;l-y&#601;-n&#601;-b&#601;l, -&#712;n&#257;-l&#275;-&#601;-n&#601;-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
Date: circa 1645
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

These rights that are mentioned in the Decloration of Independence fit this definition. They cannot be surrendered, or transferred. They cannot be taken from us.

Life?

Capital punishment.

Liberty?

Imprisonment

Pursuit of Happiness?

Depends on what that entails

If a person has earned capital punishment, so be it. The fact is that I personally believe that life for me and born again believers in the Savior, The Christ, is eternal. I would hope we don't get ourselves involved in the things that would lead to the death penalty in the Crinminal Justice System.

Liberty, I have heard it said by many (I was a Parole Officer for 21 years) that when they went to prison, and finally have their sins found out and confessed, they were more free in there than they ever were out in the world. Paul, in the New Testament, was free when he was in prison. It is actually a wonderful possibility.

 

[JBeukema]

So one's right to live can never be infringed, but so be it if the State decides they should die...

So, ever single person here who claims 'natural rights' exist has to base them on metaphysics and superstition; not a single one can meet the OP's challenge.

If they exist, why can't anyone show it?