Zone1 If racism is the reason for blacks being poor, why are most blacks middle class and up?

[Lisa558]

Quit lying Lisa, I have never said that, those are YOUR words.

You have repeatedly said that racism is the reason poor blacks are poor. Stop denying it - that’s the crux of our entire disagreement.

You are doing everything possible to avoid admitting that most blacks are middle class because they made the right choices and decisions in life.

 

[Lisa558]

Why, because many blacks have escaped poverty and moved to the middle class. Doesn’t mean there is no racism, just that it can be overcome

A percentage of blacks have not been able to escape poverty just like many whites do not escape poverty

But you don’t start threads mocking poor whites

Yes - and that’s the crux of it. I never said there isn’t some racism. I’ve said that racism is not the reason that blacks are poor (of the minority who are).

The reason (some) blacks are poor is not because of racism. It’s because they didn’t make the right decisions. The majority of blacks have, and that is why they are middle class.

And you have given a perfect example - some moved to where the employment opportunities are. CORRECT decision. Like my dad: he could have stayed poor and blamed it in antisemitism….that people wouldn‘t hire Jews in NY in the late 40s….but instead, he MOVED. Correct decision.

 

[Lisa558]

If 80% live above the poverty line, and the out of wedlock birth rate is 72%, then clearly it can’t be that big a factor.

First, take out the middle class blacks, and let’s look at impoverished blacks. Probably 90% out of wedlock.

And it’s been proven by study after study that there is a strong correlation between OOW birthrate and poverty.

 

[Lisa558]

It’s also noteworthy that their poverty is more than double that of whites.

Yeah, but they aren’t blaming racism for it.

 

[Lisa558]

A lot of people think Donald Trump can do no wrong. The "a lot of people agree with me" argument doesn't work when you all believe something that's not true, which pretty much sums up the position of white supremacists in a nutshell.

The Jewish people are not black. The Jewish people were not subjected to the same pains and penalties that the black people in America have been subjected to, then and now and for 300 years LONGER than what the Jewish people suffered.

Quit trying to make this a contest of "my people suffered more than your people" because the Jewish people in America are not similarly situation to the Black people in America BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BLACK.

If you are unable to grasp this simple concept then I guess you will be stuck in ignorance and frustration forever.

If you can‘t grasp the fact that a persecuted minority can rise above bigotry in a single generation by making the right choices, then you will be stuck looking for reparations you don’t deserve forever.

And the comparison with Jews In the 1940s is to show how they suffered MORE from bigotry than the black ghetto youth TODAY. An entire slew of poor Jewish boys, sons of impoverished parents, and living in this country in the 1940s, were robbed of their grandparents, aunts and uncles, and cousins, slaughtered by Hitler, hearing their own parents cry every night, and they STILL buckled down, exercised discipline, showed motivation, studied their hearts out, completed their education, and onto the middle class.

THAT is worse than what blacks today are suffering. Until you and the white liberals stop blaming every failure of any black person on whites, your people will never solve their problems. And handing out extra $300 a month or whatever won’t make a peg of difference.

 

[Lisa558]

The term "Hobson's choice" is often used to mean an illusion of choice, but it is not a choice between two equivalent options, which is a Morton's fork, nor is it a choice between two undesirable options, which is a dilemma. Hobson's choice is one between something or nothing.

John Stuart Mill, in his book Considerations on Representative Government, refers to Hobson's choice:


In another of his books, The Subjection of Women, Mill discusses marriage:



A Hobson's choice is different from:

• Dilemma: a choice between two or more options, none of which are attractive.
• False dilemma: only certain choices are considered, when in fact there are others.
• Catch-22: a logical paradox arising from a situation in which an individual needs something that can only be acquired by not being in that very situation.
• Morton's fork, and a double bind: choices yield equivalent and, often, undesirable results.
• Blackmail and extortion: the choice between paying money (or some non-monetary good or deed) or risk suffering an unpleasant action.

I’m aware of what Hobson’s Choice is.

And as far as two choices, with neither being appealing, that’s not excuse. When I lost my job at age 50 and the only offer I got was a 1.5 hour commute away, was it “appealing” that I would have to spend 3 hours a day on the road. NO. I did what I had to do to get an income.

When the antisemites wouldn’t hire my dad, was it “appealing” for a shy 22-year-old to leave his family and move to a strange city where he knew nobody. NO, But he did what he had to do.

And long commutes and having to move isn’t even necessary in these inner-city ghettos. Jobs are going begging, and it’s a short bus or Metro ride away. Why are black adult males hanging around on the corner all day, of the minority who do that, smoking weed and getting high, instead of making the right choice to get on the bus to a job at a fast-food place?

Stop making excuses. There is a problem with the black underclass, and it’s not due to whites.

 

[Curried Goats]

I’ve asked this question within another thread, and repeatedly, but people who are blaming racism for blacks in poverty won’t answer, so I thought to make it a separate thread.

For background, I blame - primarily - the high out-of-wedlock birth rate (currently 72%), as it is well established that it correlates with poverty, and thus have suggested that blacks could improve the stats by reducing the OOW birthrate and staying in school. (For this, of course, I have been called every evil name in the book - “evil” being one of them - but mostly racist, racist, racist.)

My question remains: if blacks who remain mired in poverty are there due to racism, how do you explain that most blacks, like most whites, are not? (In my particular area, for example, most blacks are well-educated professionals, many living in McMansions.) Please, be honest with your answers, and do not be afraid to credit middle-class blacks with making good choices.

(The chart below shows that the percentage of blacks in poverty, while higher than other groups, is 19.5%. That means more than 80% of blacks are NOT in poverty. Again, how could such a large majority of blacks move beyond poverty if racism keeps them down?)

Poverty rate by race and ethnicity U.S. 2022 | Statista

In 2022, 17.1 percent of Black people living in the United States were living below the poverty line, compared to 8.6 percent of white people.

www.statista.com

We have been over this Lisa, a large part of the reason for why blacks and whites face such disparate outcomes in many aspects of life, not just in escaping poverty, but in education, in homeownership, in suffering and recovering through economic downturns is the economic wealth gap. There is a significant wealth gap between white and black households in this country.

Disparities in Wealth by Race and Ethnicity in the 2019 Survey of Consumer Finances

But that wealth gap isn't just a matter of happenstance, it's often been purposeful through housing, job and educational discrimination.

It’s a common misperception that the racial wealth gap is an unfortunate legacy of a bygone era. The myth goes like this: Slavery and Jim Crow bred black poverty. In the 20th century, millions of black families moved out of the South chasing high wages in urban industry. But after a few decades the factories closed, inner cities decayed and a “complex tangle of pathology” emerged in single-parent households and soaring incarceration rates.

If those were the causes, then the solutions seemed evident: end job, housing and school discrimination, enforce civil rights and sprinkle the market with affirmative action. If those things failed to close the gap, then the problem was one of follow-through. If black people would just move to the suburbs, marry, finish school, train up and play by the rules, the gap would vanish.

But that is a myth, concealed in what Ta-Nehisi Coates terms “the quiet plunder.” In the grand narrative of freedom and civil rights, the disadvantages that persist are invisible precisely because people in power continuously innovated new forms of discrimination.

 

[rightwinger]

The reason (some) blacks are poor is not because of racism. It’s because they didn’t make the right decisions. The majority of blacks have, and that is why they are middle class.

More blame the victim
More racism from Lisa who gives poor whites a free pass

 

[bodecea]

But the whites in Appalachia aren’t blaming other people - via accusations of racism - for their poverty. That’s the difference.

But your answer raises another point: if the reason for poverty is lack of family connections, how did the sons and daughters of all those impoverished, uneducated Jews coming here in the early 20th century end up successful, in the middle and upper-middle class? They were also raised in poverty, with no family connections.

Sure are if you ever listened.

 

[Lisa558]

More blame the victim
More racism from Lisa who gives poor whites a free pass

More excuses for bad decisions. And lowlife blacks in the ghetto are NOT the vicitm.

And I never gave a pass to poor whites. You are lying about that because you’re a leftist, and leftists cry “raacist” all the time. Poor whites are guilty of the same poor decisions that poor blacks are.

 

[rightwinger]

More excuses for bad decisions. And lowlife blacks in the ghetto are NOT the vicitm.

And I never gave a pass to poor whites. You are lying about that because you’re a leftist, and leftists cry “raacist” all the time. Poor whites are guilty of the same poor decisions that poor blacks are.

Why do you consider America’s poor to be only “poor blacks in the ghetto”

 

[Lisa558]

Why do you consider America’s poor to be only “poor blacks in the ghetto”

I don’t. We are talking about the poor blacks in the ghetto, for whom leftists like you are blaming whites.

There are plenty of poor whites, and they’ve made the same poor, irresponsible decisions as the poor blaxks.

 

[rightwinger]

I don’t. We are talking about the poor blacks in the ghetto, for whom leftists like you are blaming whites.

There are plenty of poor whites, and they’ve made the same poor, irresponsible decisions as the poor blaxks.

Yet you never seem to start threads criticizing the habits of poor whites in Appalachia, the Bayou or Mississippi

 

[Lisa558]

Yet you never seem to start threads criticizing the habits of poor whites in Appalachia, the Bayou or Mississippi

That’s because they aren’t blaming racism. How many times do you have to be told that?

Here, I’ll simplify it:

Whites who are poor are so because of bad choices.
Blacks who are poor are so because of bad choices.

YOU are the racist here. You’re giving blacks, and blacks only, a pass for being poor - calling them “victims” and blaming whitey.

 

[Curried Goats]

That’s because they aren’t blaming racism. How many times do you have to be told that?

Here, I’ll simplify it:

Whites who are poor are so because of bad choices.
Blacks who are poor are so because of bad choices.

YOU are the racist here. You’re giving blacks, and blacks only, a pass for being poor - calling them “victims” and blaming whitey.

No, Lisa, you're racist because you don't acknowledge why such a higher percentage of the black community are in poverty, or why blacks who achieve college degrees and higher incomes are more likely to slip back into poverty.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Before FDR instituted the welfare state and LBJ made it worse, all people had a simple choice: work or starve. Private charities would help worthy people down on their luck, but if you were able bodied and just refused to work, they wouldn't waste resources on you. When the choice is as simple as work or starve, you work.

Exactly.
There is a fine line between honestly helping someone in need, and just enabling them to stay lazy.
And the Democrats have been enabling laziness for 60 years to maintain a voting base.

 

[rightwinger]

Exactly.
There is a fine line between honestly helping someone in need, and just enabling them to stay lazy.
And the Democrats have been enabling laziness for 60 years to maintain a voting base.

What have Republicans done in the last 60 years?

 

[IM2]

22 years ago Larry Elder wrote a book called "10 things you can't say in America".
And one of those things was Black poverty and failure to reach the same level of every other race... is not due to racism, but a self defeating culture.
He included in that chapter several-several studies that were done, but no one heard of because the results were not as expected. Once the study was done, they were left with data. And when that data was examined - the answer was the same every time. When you compare blacks to white - evenly - their levels of failure and success is the same. Over and over.
When white kids grow up in a shitty neighborhood without a father - they fail overwhelmingly. When black kids grow up in decent neighborhood with both parents involved in their lives - their success rates is identical to the white kids.

It is the culture stupid.

Larry Elder is an idiot. The only people who buy his books are white racists who then use his words against blacks trying to explain our situation. You are an example of this.

 

[IM2]

Exactly.
There is a fine line between honestly helping someone in need, and just enabling them to stay lazy.
And the Democrats have been enabling laziness for 60 years to maintain a voting base.

There is line between bullshit and horseshit and you crossed both. Black unemployment is 5.8 percent. That means 94 percent are working. I find white people, talking about laziness to be ironic.

 

[IM2]

Very few blacks that have escaped the poverty plantations buy into the systemic racism/white supremacy BS. They are smart enough to see through those lies &/or reason out what the actual stats & facts say.

They have stepped out into the world beyond govt dependency & gangsta culture to see there are opportunities for all if you are willing to put in the work to better your situation.

Many have as much disdain for the race baiters dividing their race as the white progressives have for the POC that leave the repression reservations

You don't know any blacks. You delude yourself into what belief you have about blacks. Oprah has more money than every one of you racists combined and she will tell you quick about systemic racism and white supremacy. You aren'tbblack and you don't speak to what black buy into.