If Guns Kill People...

[Skull Pilot]

Facts, our murder rate has always been higher than that of the UK as far back as I can find.

Our murder rate is at a 120 year low the UK's murder rate is higher than it was before all their really strict gun laws were passed

Guns and gun laws are not the only variables if they were our murder rate would be rising along with the number of guns

Here's another fact. You don't check your "facts" before you make them up.

In 1960 the US murder rate was 5.1, in 1963 it was 4.6, in 2015 it was 5.3.

Now, where I come from 5.3 is a HIGHER number than 4.6, but where you come, I guess anything is possible.

In 1950 it was 4.6.

I use 1950 because that was the decade before the UK started passing all it's gun laws and as we see the murder rate in the UK has not dropped below what it was before all their gun laws were passed.

And if you bothered to really look you'd see the murder rate in European countries rose right onto the 90's just like ours did.

So comparing the UK's murder rate pre and post gun laws we see that those gun laws did not reduce the murder rates

Comparing our murder rates for the same 60 years we see that while the rate did climb as it did almost everywhere we have seen a steep decline in the past 30 years and are on ace to see the lowest murder rate in the past 120 years all while having more guns.

So when you say guns raise the murder rate you are obviously wrong

Oh, wow, so, not only was it 4.6 in the 1960s, it was 4.6 in the 1950s too, and now it's 5.3. So, how's that claim that murders are at a 120 year low going for you?

You're telling ME that if I bothered looking up the facts? Are you serious?

I'm not disputing that the murder rates in European countries rose in the 1990s. What I'm saying is that the murder rate of the US has ALWAYS BEEN MUCH, MUCH HIGHER than that of other first world countries.

Do you agree or disagree with this?


You say I'm wrong that guns raise the murder rate? Why's that? The US has had guns since forever. And it's had a higher murder rate since, who knows? forever?

There are other factors which can raise and lower murder rates. You seem to be trying to make some argument that if the murder rate rises because of other reasons, therefore guns don't have an impact.

Which is clearly wrong as the US with lots of guns having a 4 times higher murder rate all through history seems to show no matter how much you try and present some cherry picked facts you didn't even bother to look up.

In 2016 it was 4.9 not 5.3

And I don't know if the murder rate was 4 times higher in "all of history" do you want to back that claim up?

If the murder rate is related to the number of guns as you say it is then tell me why is our murder dropping when we have more guns and more people carrying concealed weapons than ever before?

So, are you now saying the 4.9 is LOWER than 4.6?

United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2016

I got 2015 at 4.9, 2016 at 5.3

2016 Crime Statistics Released

"There were an estimated 17,250 murders in the U.S. last year, an 8.6 percent increase from 2015."

What Rising Murder Rates in US Cities Mean for 2016

"
What Rising Murder Rates in US Cities Mean for 2016"

Table 2

FBI says 5.3 too.

Me thinks this is ANOTHER CASE of you making shit up.

2015 it was 4.9 1950 it was 4.8 as I said virtually the same

I didn't use numbers from 2016 because i didn't have them at the time

But no matter we still have had a 30 year decline despite having more guns.
even with the slight increase in 2016 the overall trend is downward

How is what you're doing different from people using one year's harsh winter as proof that global warming is a farce?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Crazy people with guns kill people.

Crazy people must get back ground checked and keeped away from guns.

How do you find out if someone is crazy? How do you predict when someone will go crazy?

Best way to stop gun violence is to allow everyone to have a gun. Even a crazy person wouldn't try to pull something then.

We have the most guns in the world. Many places with few guns have much lower crime rates than us. When citizens arm up so do criminals. That is why our violent crime rate is increasing.

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

 

[NightFox]

How do you find out if someone is crazy? How do you predict when someone will go crazy?

Best way to stop gun violence is to allow everyone to have a gun. Even a crazy person wouldn't try to pull something then.

We have the most guns in the world. Many places with few guns have much lower crime rates than us. When citizens arm up so do criminals. That is why our violent crime rate is increasing.

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

Of course, as everybody knows, criminals have a deep seated sense of fair play and would NEVER bring a gun to a fist fight.

 

[Brain357]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

 

[Brain357]

How do you find out if someone is crazy? How do you predict when someone will go crazy?

Best way to stop gun violence is to allow everyone to have a gun. Even a crazy person wouldn't try to pull something then.

We have the most guns in the world. Many places with few guns have much lower crime rates than us. When citizens arm up so do criminals. That is why our violent crime rate is increasing.

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

They will be used much less yes. That is what has happened with strong gun control.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Come on folks. Lets turn em all in.

 

[RWNJ]

Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people
Since we can't ban people, we have to go after the guns

People with knives kill people
People with hammer kill people
People with hands kill people
people with feet kill people
people with baseball bats kill people

PEOPLE kill people
People have always killed people
People will always kill people

This is one of those things you need to accept, you know like gravity.

But people with guns can kill 59 people at a go, people with knives often can't really kill more than 3 or 4, people with hammers probably 1, like people with hands and feet.

But then one person dead and 59 people dead is the same to you, right?

Let's try this again, from the beginning. Let me know where I lose you. You have gun shows all over the country. Lots of guns and lots of people there. No one gets shot. I suppose idiots like you believe that gun laws can keep people from killing other people. Here's a little something I want you to work on. Can you point to one single law that prevented someome from killing someone else? Let's see it.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Best way to stop gun violence is to allow everyone to have a gun. Even a crazy person wouldn't try to pull something then.

We have the most guns in the world. Many places with few guns have much lower crime rates than us. When citizens arm up so do criminals. That is why our violent crime rate is increasing.

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

They will be used much less yes. That is what has happened with strong gun control.

Um no.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/207152/

Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told. Let’s take a look at the data:

United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.

Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. Removing firearms does not typically create massive lawlessness. It is a moot point

 

[Brain357]

We have the most guns in the world. Many places with few guns have much lower crime rates than us. When citizens arm up so do criminals. That is why our violent crime rate is increasing.

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

They will be used much less yes. That is what has happened with strong gun control.

Um no.

The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told. Let’s take a look at the data:

United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.

Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. Removing firearms does not typically create massive lawlessness. It is a moot point

The research is clear: gun control saves lives


Last year, researchers from around the country reviewed more than 130 studies from 10 countries on gun control for Epidemiologic Reviews. This is, for now, the most current, extensive review of the research on the effects of gun control. The findings were clear: “The simultaneous implementation of laws targeting multiple firearms restrictions is associated with reductions in firearm deaths.”


Based on the other research, this actually isn’t a very surprising finding. Regularly updated reviews of the evidence compiled by the Harvard School of Public Health’s Injury Control Research Center have consistently found that when controlling for variables such as socioeconomic factors and other crime, places with more guns have more gun deaths.

 

[NightFox]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

 

[Skull Pilot]

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

They will be used much less yes. That is what has happened with strong gun control.

Um no.

The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told. Let’s take a look at the data:

United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.

Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. Removing firearms does not typically create massive lawlessness. It is a moot point

The research is clear: gun control saves lives


Last year, researchers from around the country reviewed more than 130 studies from 10 countries on gun control for Epidemiologic Reviews. This is, for now, the most current, extensive review of the research on the effects of gun control. The findings were clear: “The simultaneous implementation of laws targeting multiple firearms restrictions is associated with reductions in firearm deaths.”


Based on the other research, this actually isn’t a very surprising finding. Regularly updated reviews of the evidence compiled by the Harvard School of Public Health’s Injury Control Research Center have consistently found that when controlling for variables such as socioeconomic factors and other crime, places with more guns have more gun deaths.

How can gun control save lives when it has absolutely no effect on the murder rate?

And stop using gun deaths
Gun deaths include suicides and suicide is a choice being murdered isn't

 

[Brain357]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

 

[ColonelAngus]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

They will be used much less yes. That is what has happened with strong gun control.

Um no.

The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told. Let’s take a look at the data:

United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.

Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. Removing firearms does not typically create massive lawlessness. It is a moot point

The research is clear: gun control saves lives


Last year, researchers from around the country reviewed more than 130 studies from 10 countries on gun control for Epidemiologic Reviews. This is, for now, the most current, extensive review of the research on the effects of gun control. The findings were clear: “The simultaneous implementation of laws targeting multiple firearms restrictions is associated with reductions in firearm deaths.”


Based on the other research, this actually isn’t a very surprising finding. Regularly updated reviews of the evidence compiled by the Harvard School of Public Health’s Injury Control Research Center have consistently found that when controlling for variables such as socioeconomic factors and other crime, places with more guns have more gun deaths.

How can gun control save lives when it has absolutely no effect on the murder rate?

It won't.

The goal of the left is to completely obliterate the 2nd amendment by regulations.

There is NO WAY it will be overturned the PROPER WAY. (2/3 vote by Congress and 75% of the State Legislatures vote to ELIMINATE the 2nd amendment)

that will never happen, so Progs need to use any excuse they can come up with to slowly erode the 2nd amendment.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

So then you explain the stats in the link I gave you that shows gun laws have no effect on murder rates

 

[Brain357]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

So then you explain the stats in the link I gave you that shows gun laws have no effect on murder rates

We are seeing now that violent crime is increasing with concealed carry. Except in New York which has very limited carry... violent crime is down there.

 

[Brain357]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

So then you explain the stats in the link I gave you that shows gun laws have no effect on murder rates

Not controlling for variables.

 

[Skull Pilot]

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

So then you explain the stats in the link I gave you that shows gun laws have no effect on murder rates

We are seeing now that violent crime is increasing with concealed carry. Except in New York which has very limited carry... violent crime is down there.

So then you explain the stats in the link I gave you that shows gun laws have no effect on murder rates

 

[Skull Pilot]

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

So then you explain the stats in the link I gave you that shows gun laws have no effect on murder rates

Not controlling for variables.

What variables?

You say gun control reduces the murder rate.

It doesn't as has been shown to you

 

[NightFox]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

Tell that to all the dead Soviet citizens that the Bolsheviks wacked right after disarming them... or the 762 people killed in "Gun Control Central" Chicago by guns last year.

Freedom isn't free, if you want the freedom to exercise your right to self defense then it comes with consequences, it don't want that freedom then fine, check yourself into a nice, safe gilded cage and stop trying to dilute the individual liberty of everybody that does.

"All might be free if they valued freedom, and defended it as they should.." -- Samuel Adams

 

[toobfreak]

People with guns kill people. It's not hard to see that a gun is a tool. Tools make it easier for humans to do things. Guns are designed to kill, they help you kill more easily, and they do.

People with guns save lives. Only crazy people with guns, usually liberals, kill people with them, unless it is combat in a war. Guns are designed to uphold the law, protect people, stop criminals and outside threats. Guns are designed for hunting and survival, food and for sport, discipline and target practice. Gun training from an early age brought discipline and responsibility to our children's lives. Having now been taken away by the kook liberal elite, our children now grow up with no similar discipline or sense of responsibility. It is only through the undisciplined ABUSE of firearms by the loons created by our modern liberalism experimenting on society do most mass murders and similar crimes occur. Taking away guns only increases the chances; no mass murderer has ever picked a target where the people were well-armed and able to fight back.