If God Is...?

[uscitizen]

Not an argument from authority at all. Or even numbers. Just common sense. Certanly numbers or the prevailing wisdom is not authority. Most of the world once thought the Earth to be flat and that it was the center of the universe. We now know that despite how much peer review there was, that was wrong. But also, that was not based on experience, but rather peer teaching.

But when an extraordinary number of persons report a personal experience, and no conspiracy is possible, it is only logical to conclude that they are experiencing something whether they understand it correctly or not. If you have never been in love, do you conclude that no such thing isn't possible even after many, many others report the experience of being in love? Do you say it is only a belief?

To address the rest of your post:

Personal experience, is not and never will be empirical evidence about an objective phenomenon, no matter how many people experience it, simply because there are other possible explanations. I could make the argument that this phenomenon is the result of humans' need to believe in something to quell the fear of death and fear of unknown, which are two fears that make us feel out of control, thus producing anxiety and suffering. If a belief in god will quell this anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it only matters that it produces the desired effect of putting us at ease. This is the problem with the human mind. We will believe things just to feel better about ourselves or the universe, whether or not it corresponds with actual reality. So really, this is a psychological issue. In all likelihood, this is exactly why humans are primed to be religious. We have never had a natural explanation of anything until only very recently in our evolutionary history. Therefore, storytelling and religious ideas have been central to our understanding of the universe and our place in it, and thus, our understanding of ourselves. Psychologically, the ability to place our selves in the universe with a cohesive model that makes logical sense, is very important for our emotional well-being. Science can now provide that model on natural explanations. God is no longer needed. Those that hang onto god, are merely expressing an outdated version of our human software. It's time to catch up, and update.

The point is, is that there are other possible explanations for why so many people believe in god, other than god, and they make just as much, if not more sense, than "god exists."

I won't argue the point with you. If you don't believe you don't believe. I am only making a case for why it is far more rational to keep an open mind than it is to dismiss or try to explain away the reported personal experience of billions of people.

yeah well billions of people seem to like facebook.

 

[newpolitics]

Not an argument from authority at all. Or even numbers. Just common sense. Certanly numbers or the prevailing wisdom is not authority. Most of the world once thought the Earth to be flat and that it was the center of the universe. We now know that despite how much peer review there was, that was wrong. But also, that was not based on experience, but rather peer teaching.

But when an extraordinary number of persons report a personal experience, and no conspiracy is possible, it is only logical to conclude that they are experiencing something whether they understand it correctly or not. If you have never been in love, do you conclude that no such thing isn't possible even after many, many others report the experience of being in love? Do you say it is only a belief?

To address the rest of your post:

Personal experience, is not and never will be empirical evidence about an objective phenomenon, no matter how many people experience it, simply because there are other possible explanations. I could make the argument that this phenomenon is the result of humans' need to believe in something to quell the fear of death and fear of unknown, which are two fears that make us feel out of control, thus producing anxiety and suffering. If a belief in god will quell this anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it only matters that it produces the desired effect of putting us at ease. This is the problem with the human mind. We will believe things just to feel better about ourselves or the universe, whether or not it corresponds with actual reality. So really, this is a psychological issue. In all likelihood, this is exactly why humans are primed to be religious. We have never had a natural explanation of anything until only very recently in our evolutionary history. Therefore, storytelling and religious ideas have been central to our understanding of the universe and our place in it, and thus, our understanding of ourselves. Psychologically, the ability to place our selves in the universe with a cohesive model that makes logical sense, is very important for our emotional well-being. Science can now provide that model on natural explanations. God is no longer needed. Those that hang onto god, are merely expressing an outdated version of our human software. It's time to catch up, and update.

The point is, is that there are other possible explanations for why so many people believe in god, other than god, and they make just as much, if not more sense, than "god exists."

I won't argue the point with you. If you don't believe you don't believe. I am only making a case for why it is far more rational to keep an open mind than it is to dismiss or try to explain away the reported personal experience of billions of people.

That's sensible, except, I'm not explaining away or dismissing away anything, merely looking for a secular explanation, as would follow given I don't believe in any gods. A personal experience is just that: personal. It doesn't give sufficient reason for anyone else who hasn't experienced something supernatural, to believe in a supernatural being whom they have no personal interaction with, and can not otherwise identify as existing anywhere in reality. I can't say that god doesn't exist with absolute certainty, or that your experiences were not real. They may very well may have been and god may exist, I just don't believe that, because I am not convinced. The kinds of experiences people have which they attribute to god, can most likely be explained naturally. If someone wants to believe something (ie, that a god exists because they are searching for meaning or a way out of a bad situation), they are biased about reality, and will slant any perceptions to try to insert god into something that may just be extremely coincidental or seemingly impossible. To me, an analogy would be looking for shapes in clouds. If you are looking for shapes, you will find them. If not, you will only see clouds. We are rational pattern-detecters, and if we choose or want to see a supernatural pattern creator, that is not hard for our minds to acheive, and convince ourselves that deity exists and is responsible for everything. I find the psychological reasons for faith fascinating, and admit that I do it from a secular framework: god doesn't exist, and people have faith for psychological reasons. I'm not trying to be insulting, I am simply trying to account for why so many people have faith. It seems reasonable that given all we don't know (to the laymen or non-scientist), it is easy to subscribe to the notion of a deity in order to make all of that uncertainty go away. Who knows though. I enjoy discussing it nevertheless.

 

[Avatar4321]

To address the rest of your post:

Personal experience, is not and never will be empirical evidence about an objective phenomenon, no matter how many people experience it, simply because there are other possible explanations. I could make the argument that this phenomenon is the result of humans' need to believe in something to quell the fear of death and fear of unknown, which are two fears that make us feel out of control, thus producing anxiety and suffering. If a belief in god will quell this anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it only matters that it produces the desired effect of putting us at ease. This is the problem with the human mind. We will believe things just to feel better about ourselves or the universe, whether or not it corresponds with actual reality. So really, this is a psychological issue. In all likelihood, this is exactly why humans are primed to be religious. We have never had a natural explanation of anything until only very recently in our evolutionary history. Therefore, storytelling and religious ideas have been central to our understanding of the universe and our place in it, and thus, our understanding of ourselves. Psychologically, the ability to place our selves in the universe with a cohesive model that makes logical sense, is very important for our emotional well-being. Science can now provide that model on natural explanations. God is no longer needed. Those that hang onto god, are merely expressing an outdated version of our human software. It's time to catch up, and update.

The point is, is that there are other possible explanations for why so many people believe in god, other than god, and they make just as much, if not more sense, than "god exists."

So what your saying is we have three people who witness a mass murder and because they are personal experiences, unless there is additional "Empiracal" evidence, we should simply disregard their testimony because there could be "alternative" explanations?

More to the point, when I have a clearly defined personal experience with God, I should somehow ignore it because you havent had the same experience or sought your own? I dont find that logic compelling. I cant deny my experience with God than I could deny knowing my wife. I would be completely dishonest to do so. You have no obligation to believe me. But that doesnt change the fact that it's true. In fact, God specifically encourages us to find out for ourselves and come to Him. He can reveal Himself to whomever He chooses for whatever reasons.

 

[newpolitics]

To address the rest of your post:

Personal experience, is not and never will be empirical evidence about an objective phenomenon, no matter how many people experience it, simply because there are other possible explanations. I could make the argument that this phenomenon is the result of humans' need to believe in something to quell the fear of death and fear of unknown, which are two fears that make us feel out of control, thus producing anxiety and suffering. If a belief in god will quell this anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it only matters that it produces the desired effect of putting us at ease. This is the problem with the human mind. We will believe things just to feel better about ourselves or the universe, whether or not it corresponds with actual reality. So really, this is a psychological issue. In all likelihood, this is exactly why humans are primed to be religious. We have never had a natural explanation of anything until only very recently in our evolutionary history. Therefore, storytelling and religious ideas have been central to our understanding of the universe and our place in it, and thus, our understanding of ourselves. Psychologically, the ability to place our selves in the universe with a cohesive model that makes logical sense, is very important for our emotional well-being. Science can now provide that model on natural explanations. God is no longer needed. Those that hang onto god, are merely expressing an outdated version of our human software. It's time to catch up, and update.

The point is, is that there are other possible explanations for why so many people believe in god, other than god, and they make just as much, if not more sense, than "god exists."

So what your saying is we have three people who witness a mass murder and because they are personal experiences, unless there is additional "Empiracal" evidence, we should simply disregard their testimony because there could be "alternative" explanations?

More to the point, when I have a clearly defined personal experience with God, I should somehow ignore it because you havent had the same experience or sought your own? I dont find that logic compelling. I cant deny my experience with God than I could deny knowing my wife. I would be completely dishonest to do so. You have no obligation to believe me. But that doesnt change the fact that it's true. In fact, God specifically encourages us to find out for ourselves and come to Him. He can reveal Himself to whomever He chooses for whatever reasons.

Did I not explicitly state that you're experience is yours? I am not invalidating that, nor can I comment on whether it was authentic. I don't believe it was, but I can't know that with absolute certainty. I am not advocating you ignore you're own experience and never said this (I said the opposite), so don't put words in my mouth. All I said was, you're experiences do not give me a reason to believe as you do, simply because you relate such experiences. I don't believe that you're experience was caused by a supernatural being, essentially. There are other explanations.

Witnessing a mass murder along with three people, is not a personal experience, it is a shared experience. Not to mention, this example is a bad analogy, since we are comparing experiences with a being beyond this universe, to an experience taking place within this universe (the murder). Firstly, My definition of a personal experience, especially with a supernatural being, would be that it took place between only that person and the supposed deity. No other human being could therefore possibly be involved in this personal experience, and as such, no else has justification to believe, given that, by definition, they did not experience the same thing.

I find you're last part apalling. God "chooses" to reveal himself to certain people. If hell is real, and you suffer there for eternity, he is obligated to prevent us from all going as a moral imperative, considering he made the damn place, and the rules about who goes and who doesn't (supposedly), especially if "saving" everybody would simply require knowledge of his existence, which he could easily aide by revealing himself to everyone in a way that was undeniable. If he truly wants to connect with his creation, he could, but he doesn't. To me, god is not very smart (if he wants to achieve his stated goals), and as such, I believe he is not real, and completely man-made. That doesn't mean there isn't some deity out there, but I don't believe in any way, that this deity is the christian, jewish, muslim, hindu, etc..., god. There are too many blatant contradictions and logical impossibilities.

 

[auditor0007]

I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.

One side as bad as the other.

I owe you rep on this one. There is no doubt that the science is there; the funny thing about it is that even with the science, the idea that it's all a complete crap shoot leaves me scratching my head. For those who choose to absolutely deny that there is even a possibility of God, I find it amazing that anyone could be so arrogant as to think that through our current limited understanding of science that we actually know it all. It's a bit like saying, we know it all now, so there is no need to continue progressing. It reminds me of my teenage sons; they know everything too.

 

[Foxfyre]

To address the rest of your post:

Personal experience, is not and never will be empirical evidence about an objective phenomenon, no matter how many people experience it, simply because there are other possible explanations. I could make the argument that this phenomenon is the result of humans' need to believe in something to quell the fear of death and fear of unknown, which are two fears that make us feel out of control, thus producing anxiety and suffering. If a belief in god will quell this anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it only matters that it produces the desired effect of putting us at ease. This is the problem with the human mind. We will believe things just to feel better about ourselves or the universe, whether or not it corresponds with actual reality. So really, this is a psychological issue. In all likelihood, this is exactly why humans are primed to be religious. We have never had a natural explanation of anything until only very recently in our evolutionary history. Therefore, storytelling and religious ideas have been central to our understanding of the universe and our place in it, and thus, our understanding of ourselves. Psychologically, the ability to place our selves in the universe with a cohesive model that makes logical sense, is very important for our emotional well-being. Science can now provide that model on natural explanations. God is no longer needed. Those that hang onto god, are merely expressing an outdated version of our human software. It's time to catch up, and update.

The point is, is that there are other possible explanations for why so many people believe in god, other than god, and they make just as much, if not more sense, than "god exists."

I won't argue the point with you. If you don't believe you don't believe. I am only making a case for why it is far more rational to keep an open mind than it is to dismiss or try to explain away the reported personal experience of billions of people.

yeah well billions of people seem to like facebook.

So, even if you had never seen Facebook, the logical conclusion would be that 1) Facebook exists and 2) There is something compelling or enjoyable about it.

 

[there4eyeM]

"More to the point, when I have a clearly defined personal experience with God, I should somehow ignore it because you havent had the same experience or sought your own?"

Clearly defined to whom? To you! That means you had an internal (subjective) experience that refers to your (subjective) reality (as apparently occurred with Mr. Smith).
There is no evidence that the same thing would or even could occur to or for another perceiver.
That is why Jesus said, " the kingdom of heaven is within you." Where else could it be? Where else is anything? If it were 'outside', how could you know? Everything we know is internal. We decide that is is absolute, so for us it is true. That does not establish objective truth, since such a thing is unknowable.
But you have the choice of believing it is and forcing it on unfortunate others.

 

[ski87]

From a former Christian, future atheist, currently travelling the road of reason. Since the 5th grade I have been taught to apply the scientific method to better understand the world that I live in and to apply this method to answer life's questions. Oh, except for religion, does not apply in this instance, don't form a hypothesis, just have faith and your faith will set you free. Yeah, that was ok for the first 20 years of my life, not so compelling anymore.

 

[Old Rocks]

If god is....


Now that is the real question.

all the other questions about god are irrelevant till that one is answered.

Very good point. Were I to have to choose a concept of a diety among the many, I would have to choose that of the Native Americans. That of a Spirit, no sex or form, that imbues to whole of the universe. No creation of a God in the image of man.

 

[Old Rocks]

I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.

One side as bad as the other.

I owe you rep on this one. There is no doubt that the science is there; the funny thing about it is that even with the science, the idea that it's all a complete crap shoot leaves me scratching my head. For those who choose to absolutely deny that there is even a possibility of God, I find it amazing that anyone could be so arrogant as to think that through our current limited understanding of science that we actually know it all. It's a bit like saying, we know it all now, so there is no need to continue progressing. It reminds me of my teenage sons; they know everything too.

Most of the primary founders of this nation were Diests. They believed that a Diety created the universe with fundemental laws, then let it evolve in it's own manner. And that it is up to us to make the best of it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I stopped blaming God for what we do to each other with free will, long ago.

Can't ask God either their is so much inhumanity, it's humans doing it, not God.

My question would be, To what end? What comes next, or is this it? If this is just a small part of the Journey, I can understand it better. If what happen here is just part of the process, then there are meanings yet to be revealed. Are we all in the same boat? Is cause and effect part of the equation? Are we being made ready? On who's terms are we even here?

Is that a requirement? To be here on someone's 'terms'?

Why can't we be here just because we're lucky?

 

[Foxfyre]

Can't ask God either their is so much inhumanity, it's humans doing it, not God.

My question would be, To what end? What comes next, or is this it? If this is just a small part of the Journey, I can understand it better. If what happen here is just part of the process, then there are meanings yet to be revealed. Are we all in the same boat? Is cause and effect part of the equation? Are we being made ready? On who's terms are we even here?

Is that a requirement? To be here on someone's 'terms'?

Why can't we be here just because we're lucky?

I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born in America. It has given me a freedom I likely would not have had in any other place. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born a white, heterosexual American. That has spared me much of the attention, discrimination, prejudices, injustices, and/or other disadvantages encountered by some others over the course of my lifetime. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be raised in the part of the country I have lived most of my life in as it has provided reinforcement of common sense values and points of view that have served me well. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be blessed with what talents, abilities, personal ambitions, and opportunities with which I have been blessed. And I have always thought I was 'lucky' to grow up as a Christian as I think that has given me happiness and confidence that I likely would not have otherwise had.

There have been so many things that I think weren't so 'lucky for me, too.

I don't pretend to understand a world in which other people are born into circumstances that include none of the blessings I have enjoyed. Why is that? Luck of the draw? Some kind of cosmic cruelty? Or because only some people have done more with what they had to work with?

But why has the human species, one of the most genetically weak and inefficient, one of weakest of all species, pound for pound, so much more intellectually advanced in the whole grand process of evolution? Why is the human species, of all species, the only species that seems to have an awareness of God or awareness, concern, and/or compassion for other species all across the earth? Why is the human species of all species, the one least bound by a fixed nature or instinct?

And what is it in some humans that is so compassionate and dogmatic and compelled and determined to deny the existance of a God if there is in fact no such thing? And those most dogmatic in their denial seem to be the most bothered that some of us believe.

 

[ski87]

Intelligent Design is the emerging belief that grabs me as most logical. The universe is in constant chaos, the resultant order of our world is far too difficult to conceive as a spontaneaous result of all of the right conditions and elements coming together. Haven't seen the burning bush survive not being consumed by flames, scientific method not working for me in virtually all judeo-christian religion.

 

[AVG-JOE]

My question would be, To what end? What comes next, or is this it? If this is just a small part of the Journey, I can understand it better. If what happen here is just part of the process, then there are meanings yet to be revealed. Are we all in the same boat? Is cause and effect part of the equation? Are we being made ready? On who's terms are we even here?

Is that a requirement? To be here on someone's 'terms'?

Why can't we be here just because we're lucky?

I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born in America. It has given me a freedom I likely would not have had in any other place. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born a white, heterosexual American. That has spared me much of the attention, discrimination, prejudices, injustices, and/or other disadvantages encountered by some others over the course of my lifetime. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be raised in the part of the country I have lived most of my life in as it has provided reinforcement of common sense values and points of view that have served me well. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be blessed with what talents, abilities, personal ambitions, and opportunities with which I have been blessed. And I have always thought I was 'lucky' to grow up as a Christian as I think that has given me happiness and confidence that I likely would not have otherwise had.

There have been so many things that I think weren't so 'lucky for me, too.

I don't pretend to understand a world in which other people are born into circumstances that include none of the blessings I have enjoyed. Why is that? Luck of the draw? Some kind of cosmic cruelty? Or because only some people have done more with what they had to work with?

But why has the human species, one of the most genetically weak and inefficient, one of weakest of all species, pound for pound, so much more intellectually advanced in the whole grand process of evolution? Why is the human species, of all species, the only species that seems to have an awareness of God or awareness, concern, and/or compassion for other species all across the earth? Why is the human species of all species, the one least bound by a fixed nature or instinct?

And what is it in some humans that is so compassionate and dogmatic and compelled and determined to deny the existance of a God if there is in fact no such thing? And those most dogmatic in their denial seem to be the most bothered that some of us believe.

Because humanity is the only species that we know of that's standing on the threshold of Sentience.

Exciting times, eh?

 

[HUGGY]

If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than all of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?

Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'



Is your preferred Ancient Story really the LAST word on God? Really?

If God is

Moot point...god isn't.

 

[Intense]

Can't ask God either their is so much inhumanity, it's humans doing it, not God.

My question would be, To what end? What comes next, or is this it? If this is just a small part of the Journey, I can understand it better. If what happen here is just part of the process, then there are meanings yet to be revealed. Are we all in the same boat? Is cause and effect part of the equation? Are we being made ready? On who's terms are we even here?

Is that a requirement? To be here on someone's 'terms'?

Why can't we be here just because we're lucky?

My view, considering Cause and Effect, is that Luck, Providence, are conditional. Pay Backs are a Bitch. Intention, Motive, Method, are each weighted factors in relation to outcome.

 

[Intense]

Intelligent Design is the emerging belief that grabs me as most logical. The universe is in constant chaos, the resultant order of our world is far too difficult to conceive as a spontaneaous result of all of the right conditions and elements coming together. Haven't seen the burning bush survive not being consumed by flames, scientific method not working for me in virtually all judeo-christian religion.

Could have been a natural gas vent after a lightening strike, if you want to consider reasonable probability. Still, that is not proof God doesn't exist. Personally, I've been through too much to even doubt God's existence for even a moment. We have a habit of proclaiming what we have yet to understand, as chaos. To me, chaos is when two or more make plans to do anything. If God had a middle name, I would think it to be something like "Complexity".

 

[Avatar4321]

Is that a requirement? To be here on someone's 'terms'?

Why can't we be here just because we're lucky?

I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born in America. It has given me a freedom I likely would not have had in any other place. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born a white, heterosexual American. That has spared me much of the attention, discrimination, prejudices, injustices, and/or other disadvantages encountered by some others over the course of my lifetime. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be raised in the part of the country I have lived most of my life in as it has provided reinforcement of common sense values and points of view that have served me well. I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be blessed with what talents, abilities, personal ambitions, and opportunities with which I have been blessed. And I have always thought I was 'lucky' to grow up as a Christian as I think that has given me happiness and confidence that I likely would not have otherwise had.

There have been so many things that I think weren't so 'lucky for me, too.

I don't pretend to understand a world in which other people are born into circumstances that include none of the blessings I have enjoyed. Why is that? Luck of the draw? Some kind of cosmic cruelty? Or because only some people have done more with what they had to work with?

But why has the human species, one of the most genetically weak and inefficient, one of weakest of all species, pound for pound, so much more intellectually advanced in the whole grand process of evolution? Why is the human species, of all species, the only species that seems to have an awareness of God or awareness, concern, and/or compassion for other species all across the earth? Why is the human species of all species, the one least bound by a fixed nature or instinct?

And what is it in some humans that is so compassionate and dogmatic and compelled and determined to deny the existance of a God if there is in fact no such thing? And those most dogmatic in their denial seem to be the most bothered that some of us believe.

Because humanity is the only species that we know of that's standing on the threshold of Sentience.

Exciting times, eh?

Can we really claim this? I mean it's not like we understand the minds of other animals. For all we know, they could be on the other side of the sentience threshold. They may understand and know God far better than we do.

 

[Avatar4321]

If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than all of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?

Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'



Is your preferred Ancient Story really the LAST word on God? Really?

If God is

Moot point...god isn't.

God disagrees. He says "I am".

But then we've already gone over this already.

 

[Listening]

No. There is no proof of any god. Seeing is believing.

There is a good chance that Fermi and Co. never saw an atom. Yet they figured out how to split them.

Would you climb on a plane to China if you had not been there before ?