If God doesn't exist...

[hobelim]

In that theory, you get your Creation and beings with "super powers", you get your science, and it makes sense why the stories branched out into so many different and confusing paths afterwards, and why we fight about it. You just have to allow the possibility of an ET visiting the Earth in ancient times, like the Anunnaki ("those who from heaven to earth came"). If you can allow that possibility, then it is a very compelling argument indeed.

But regardless, it is not necessary in this discussion, except maybe in a historical context of what "God" originally was to the first people to learn how to write, who were also the first civilization known to man. And the plagiarism that took place afterwards that gave us our current God(s).... Maybe it is necessary in that understanding...

Watch out. You said ET.

When I suggested that possibility, a rational one, for some mysterious reason it made someone else freak out as if they felt threatened and they began hysterically demanding proof. lol.....


Another possibility is that there was an advanced civilization on the other side of this planet that achieved flight, came down from the sky, established a colony among superstitious neolithic hunter gatherers in the middle east, took great pains to try and civilize them with little success, and eventually said screw this place and left..

Then of course, maybe it is just like reported in scripture. Some sort of inter-dimensional contact via the mind with perfected beings from a higher realm of intelligent life who took great pains to try and civilize people of this world, with little success, and eventually said screw this place and left..

 

[sealybobo]

Per Wiki, there are approximately 4,200 religions in the world.

Now, using that as a number going forward, and based on the meaning of being devoted to a religion, and that each one believes that their's is infallibly correct, that means that 4,199 of them are flat-out wrong!!!

Wow...

And given enough prodding, they're willing to kill the other 4,199 religions, and all the people that believe in them, just to prove they're right!

They all have common elements because there are natural laws. You seem more than ready to blame religion for the bad but very reluctant to give religion any credit for the good.

Despite the fact that you are making a fringe argument, your argument has two major flaws which are common to all critical theory arguments; 1. your analysis was made in a vacuum; 2. what you did analyze lacked objectivity.

Religion promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Religion is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Religious persons and institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions. Religious persons and institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Religion gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Religion teaches accountability and responsibility. Religion teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Religion inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Religion helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Religion serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Religion brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Religion brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Religion teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Religion gave us America. Religion gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

So getting back to my point that your argument has two major flaws; your argument that God and religion have done little good is not objective and you have yet to tell us what good the alternative to religion has done. Exactly what has atheism done? Because as near as I can tell, atheism's claim to fame is murdering 200 million people in the 20th century.

Let's talk about the "flaws"...

1. My analysis was made after studying many religions, and then science. And other alternatives to both.

2. What I analyzed was completely objective. Not subjective like your borne-in religion. I completely wiped the slate, and started thinking things through objectively.

I also promote the value of thankfulness, forgiveness, goodness and the rest of the things you mention. But religion did not create those values. They are created by natural selection. A species that wants to kill their own for no reason, is not going to last long. Natural selection will dictate that they care for each other, so we can continue to copulate and flourish. However.... this principle goes completely against what religion has done to us throughout history.

Your major flaw is that your theory is COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE. You have absolutely no objectivity. You believe what you believe, because that is what you were taught, and you continue to promote it despite the evil that you admit it has caused.

Rule #1: Goodness does not require a religion or a God.

That is why I ask why you need a "God" and why it's so important to you that it exists?

Yes! We too have been programmed to assume God is a given. It wasn't till I wiped the slate clean and challenged everything that can't be proven and put aside wishful thinking and concluded there's probably no God. At least not one who's ever visited or cares.

And they finally admit those bible stories are just allegories. So we are back to square one. Generic God. Don't worry about him. Hes never visited, doesn't care and has no hell waiting.

No one starts wars over generic God. And no one ever starts a war for atheism. What they admit by saying religion does more good than atheism is that deep down they know it's not true but it does us good.

This is what they're saying. They think a lie is good for us. I say a lie, any lie, no matter how good it makes you feel, is holding you back.

 

[sealybobo]

In that theory, you get your Creation and beings with "super powers", you get your science, and it makes sense why the stories branched out into so many different and confusing paths afterwards, and why we fight about it. You just have to allow the possibility of an ET visiting the Earth in ancient times, like the Anunnaki ("those who from heaven to earth came"). If you can allow that possibility, then it is a very compelling argument indeed.

But regardless, it is not necessary in this discussion, except maybe in a historical context of what "God" originally was to the first people to learn how to write, who were also the first civilization known to man. And the plagiarism that took place afterwards that gave us our current God(s).... Maybe it is necessary in that understanding...

Watch out. You said ET.

When I suggested that possibility, a rational one, for some mysterious reason it made someone else freak out as if they felt threatened and they began hysterically demanding proof. lol.....


Another possibility is that there was an advanced civilization on the other side of this planet that achieved flight, came down from the sky, established a colony among superstitious neolithic hunter gatherers in the middle east, took great pains to try and civilize them with little success, and eventually said screw this place and left..

Then of course, maybe it is just like reported in scripture. Some sort of inter-dimensional contact via the mind with perfected beings from a higher realm of intelligent life who took great pains to try and civilize people of this world, with little success, and eventually said screw this place and left..

Or god got sick of all the sin, told one guy to gather up his 3 sons and their 3 wives and they gathered up 2 of every animal and put them on an arc and replenished the earth again with a bunch of sinning incestuous assholes (us).

So why did god bother with the arc if he knew Noah's kids ancestors that would repopulate the earth would turn out to be just as corrupt and immoral as before? So how many times have we let god down and he had to hit the reset button. Adam and eve, let him down. The people of noah's day, let God down. The people who crucified Jesus let god down. The people of saddam and gamora, let him down. And ask any religious person if we are living in the days of Soddomy and Gammora and they'll say we are. And ask the Mormons if Christianity has lost it's authority and it will say it did during the dark ages.

It's just all too silly to take serious but far too many adults take this shit literally.

 

[sealybobo]

Are we done here?

Sorry I have a life to live. Lol I know a couple or a few really smart guys

That wasn't directed at you.

Now I see how you can believe in god and be a scientist. You believe in Generic god. Not one that ever visited and created the earth in 7 days. You admit these are all just stories. You are NOT a christian and you don't believe Jesus was anything other than maybe a great man. If he isn't completely made up. Also another possibility.

And if you deny micro evolution then you too are a cherry picking scientist. Because to deny evolution is to believe that this creator came here and POOFED fully grown land animals onto this planet at some point. Fully grown zebra who then had baby zebra. If you deny that all land creatures crawled out of the water at some point then you are subscribing to the "god poofed living animals here" theory of creation and how does your scientific mind accept this theory that a god came here and waved his hand and land animals just started to exist. No way you believe that, do you?

The motivation for belief in a divine, salvational Jesus breaks down when you accept evolution:

“Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham

Kenneth Alfred "Ken" Ham is an Australian-born Christian fundamentalist and young Earth creationist living in the United States.

Ken disagrees with you.

 

[sealybobo]

Are we done here?

Sorry I have a life to live. Lol I know a couple or a few really smart guys

That wasn't directed at you.

You do realize lots of Christians take the bible literally, right?

The evidence of the Biblical record better supports the post-Flood beginning of carnivory for several reasons:

(1) at Creation, God specifically established a vegetarian diet for both man and animals,

(2) after the Fall, it is reiterated to Adam that they will continue to eat of the green plants of the field,

(3) if, in the pre-Flood, post-Fall environment, no need developed for mankind to become carnivorous, there is no reason for animals to have been so either,

(4) it is only after the Flood that God specifically tells Noah that ‘in the same way’ that he was previously given vegetation for food, he is now given the animals and fish as food,

(5) after the Flood, the relationship between men and animals becomes adversarial (God placed the ‘fear and dread’ of mankind upon the animals) and this was, therefore, clearly not the case before the Flood.

In addition, the post-Flood advent of carnivory makes the account of Noah’s Ark more feasible: no vicious carnivores, who required meat to sustain them for the duration of the Flood, were taken on the Ark, simply because they were still herbivores who were harmonious in their relationship to man. The lifespan and dietary changes were initiated by God (and certainly may have included genetic changes) after the Flood for many reasons, one of which was to sustain life in the radically changed post-Flood environment.

Other creation scientists feel that the animals ate each other after the fall but before the flood, but were temporarily herbivores during and immediately after the flood.

 

[BreezeWood]

.

In any of these options, there are no reasons to love this "god" and believe that it is looking out for your welfare.

Why is the idea of "God" being real, important to you?

the written bibles are theatrical melodramas for (ding)bats - excuses for self righteousness and mental delusions as misogyny to gain notoriety ...


beyond that there is reality, what actually exists and the ability to put together a combination to become a functioning asset beyond our mortal existence to participate as Spirits in the shaping of the laws of the Everlasting or simply just enjoying them. if there is one Spiritual existence there are others and if others there certainly will be an Almighty and as we are formed from purity, purity by all measures is what most should be protected -

what an Almighty represents is the goal, Triumph of Good vs Evil as an accomplished purity from mortal to a free Spirit in the Everlasting as the simplest requirement and that there be something the Almighty even if a committee of similar Spirits that distinguishes an Adolf Hitler to keep them away from an impact on the basic purity of Life.

the forces of good and evil are physical.

.

 

[ding]

Are we done here?

Sorry I have a life to live. Lol I know a couple or a few really smart guys

That wasn't directed at you.

Now I see how you can believe in god and be a scientist. You believe in Generic god. Not one that ever visited and created the earth in 7 days. You admit these are all just stories. You are NOT a christian and you don't believe Jesus was anything other than maybe a great man. If he isn't completely made up. Also another possibility.

And if you deny micro evolution then you too are a cherry picking scientist. Because to deny evolution is to believe that this creator came here and POOFED fully grown land animals onto this planet at some point. Fully grown zebra who then had baby zebra. If you deny that all land creatures crawled out of the water at some point then you are subscribing to the "god poofed living animals here" theory of creation and how does your scientific mind accept this theory that a god came here and waved his hand and land animals just started to exist. No way you believe that, do you?

The motivation for belief in a divine, salvational Jesus breaks down when you accept evolution:

“Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham

Kenneth Alfred "Ken" Ham is an Australian-born Christian fundamentalist and young Earth creationist living in the United States.

Ken disagrees with you.

I disagree with me too based upon your assumptions of me.

 

[sealybobo]

Are we done here?

Sorry I have a life to live. Lol I know a couple or a few really smart guys

That wasn't directed at you.

Now I see how you can believe in god and be a scientist. You believe in Generic god. Not one that ever visited and created the earth in 7 days. You admit these are all just stories. You are NOT a christian and you don't believe Jesus was anything other than maybe a great man. If he isn't completely made up. Also another possibility.

And if you deny micro evolution then you too are a cherry picking scientist. Because to deny evolution is to believe that this creator came here and POOFED fully grown land animals onto this planet at some point. Fully grown zebra who then had baby zebra. If you deny that all land creatures crawled out of the water at some point then you are subscribing to the "god poofed living animals here" theory of creation and how does your scientific mind accept this theory that a god came here and waved his hand and land animals just started to exist. No way you believe that, do you?

The motivation for belief in a divine, salvational Jesus breaks down when you accept evolution:

“Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham

Kenneth Alfred "Ken" Ham is an Australian-born Christian fundamentalist and young Earth creationist living in the United States.

Ken disagrees with you.

I disagree with me too based upon your assumptions of me.

But I think I have you pegged. You call yourself a Deist but you "like" the message you get out of Christianity so you consider yourself a Christian too. Am I wrong?

 

[sealybobo]

Deist: The belief that God has created the universe but remains apart from it and permits his creation to administer itself through natural laws. Deism thus rejects the supernatural aspects of religion, such as belief in revelation in the Bible, and stresses the importance of ethical conduct.

 

[the_human_being]

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

 

[BreezeWood]

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

.

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

your christian gods .... not the Almighty.

.

 

[the_human_being]

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

.

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

your christian gods .... not the Almighty.

.

God's a registered Republican.

 

[sealybobo]

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

.

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

your christian gods .... not the Almighty.

.

God's a registered Republican.

God doesn't exist. Maybe that's why Hillary actually won the popular vote.

 

[the_human_being]

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

.

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

your christian gods .... not the Almighty.

.

God's a registered Republican.

God doesn't exist. Maybe that's why Hillary actually won the popular vote.

You can take your popular vote and a dollar bill and get a cup of coffee at McDonalds.

 

[rightwinger]

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

Trumps election is proof that God is a comedian

 

[BreezeWood]

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

.

Trump's election is proof that God exists.

your christian gods .... not the Almighty.

.

God's a registered Republican.

.

God's a registered Republican.

bing, your brother believes Jesus had himself crucified to defend capitalism ....

.

 

[ding]

So I was right about that then, right? How would I know that CMM's were used in CNC applications? Because I'm an engineer and I purchase equipment that is manufactured using CNC technology. That's how. What kind of CMM's do you sell?

Because you are a buyer. You don't sound like an engineer.

I'm not telling you who I work for

I didn't ask who you work for. I asked what kind of CMM's you sold. Are you telling me that you can't tell what your CMM's are measuring without telling me who you work for?

I spec out and purchase equipment all the time. Our purchasing department won't purchase shit unless I tell them what to buy. I write SoR''s and get price quotes. You do realize that engineering is the COMMERCIAL application of science, right?

So when you say you sell CMM's what exactly does that mean? Do you call on customers? Do you prepare price quotes? Do you work with them on SoR's? What exactly do you do?

I do all that. I'm the only salesperson at my company who goes after new business. The other salespeople sell to anyone who calls in or they sell new cmm's to existing customers.

And we measure anything that has to be right within mm or microns. Turbines, pharmaceutical, manufacturing. We don't sell cnc"'s we sell cmm's. One of our competitors is Zeiss.

So your equipment is not installed in CNC applications at all? Just used for QA/QC?

Yes. A cmm is a machine itself. Could be huge could be the size of a copier. Boeing has to measure turbine blades to make sure their planes are built right

Do you prepare SoR's?

 

[ding]

Per Wiki, there are approximately 4,200 religions in the world.

Now, using that as a number going forward, and based on the meaning of being devoted to a religion, and that each one believes that their's is infallibly correct, that means that 4,199 of them are flat-out wrong!!!

Wow...

And given enough prodding, they're willing to kill the other 4,199 religions, and all the people that believe in them, just to prove they're right!

They all have common elements because there are natural laws. You seem more than ready to blame religion for the bad but very reluctant to give religion any credit for the good.

Despite the fact that you are making a fringe argument, your argument has two major flaws which are common to all critical theory arguments; 1. your analysis was made in a vacuum; 2. what you did analyze lacked objectivity.

Religion promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Religion is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Religious persons and institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions. Religious persons and institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Religion gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Religion teaches accountability and responsibility. Religion teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Religion inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Religion helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Religion serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Religion brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Religion brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Religion teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Religion gave us America. Religion gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

So getting back to my point that your argument has two major flaws; your argument that God and religion have done little good is not objective and you have yet to tell us what good the alternative to religion has done. Exactly what has atheism done? Because as near as I can tell, atheism's claim to fame is murdering 200 million people in the 20th century.

Let's talk about the "flaws"...

1. My analysis was made after studying many religions, and then science. And other alternatives to both.

2. What I analyzed was completely objective. Not subjective like your borne-in religion. I completely wiped the slate, and started thinking things through objectively.

I also promote the value of thankfulness, forgiveness, goodness and the rest of the things you mention. But religion did not create those values. They are created by natural selection. A species that wants to kill their own for no reason, is not going to last long. Natural selection will dictate that they care for each other, so we can continue to copulate and flourish. However.... this principle goes completely against what religion has done to us throughout history.

Your major flaw is that your theory is COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE. You have absolutely no objectivity. You believe what you believe, because that is what you were taught, and you continue to promote it despite the evil that you admit it has caused.

Rule #1: Goodness does not require a religion or a God.

That is why I ask why you need a "God" and why it's so important to you that it exists?

You don't have a positive case for your beliefs. You don't even know what a positive case is.

 

[ding]

If God doesn't exist...

... then maybe Gods do
... or maybe not.

Maybe we will never know because we don't even know what it means to be a "god".

You must be a government school grad, huh?
Bet they never told you that our memorializing documents are based on the Bible.

"They told you"? LOL.
I am not a dogmatic follower with a useless brain. I attended 5 public schools/college and a private university in the Ivy League. Learned critical thinking skills in rhetoric classes and philosophy & sciences.
The statesmen 200+ years ago were relatively ignorant, with some exception from Franklin, Paine, and Jefferson.
The Bible is 2,000 year-old trash when it comes to "God".
Are you another sucker that believes that old cultural shit has any modern use in epistemology?

If you believe that you are using critical thinking skills, then you don't know what critical thinking is. What you are practicing is critical theory. Critical theory is the practice of criticizing everything you don't believe to justify what you do believe which of course is wrongheaded thinking. Critical thinking is to critically challenge what you do believe to test its validity. You are just another dumbass wanna be pretending to be intellectual. You don't know shit. You have never known shit and it is entirely likely that you will die never knowing shit.. You feel me.

I realize you are emotional about your set-in-stone ancient "God" beliefs, but try to get a grip on your feelings before exercising whatever intellect you have.

Critical thinking reflects an objective evaluation of knowledge claims before adopting a belief.
You obviously have the cart before the horse. You adopted a Christian-Catholic belief system before logical evaluation; your biased view tries to make things "fit" into your belief system that you are emotionally invested in.

To be objective, you need to not assume something is true before you start your evaluation.
Does a "god" exist? We don't know, unless there is a valid logical argument to support its answer one way or another.
Are you able to elucidate a logical argument for the existence of a single "God"?
If so, please begin by stating your premises that lead to your logical conclusion ...

I just said this same thing on my reply, after yours. You're exactly right!

Is this an ignostic-agnostic-atheist love triangle? Or just a bromance?

 

[ding]

There's actually another option about "God" that could possibly be true. And it actually makes a lot of sense if true.

God is not a supernatural being, but an extra-terrestrial one. They came here, created us in their image using their DNA with the high ape at the time to use as a slave race, did what they needed, taught us what was necessary, and then left...

And we're here scratching our heads over it, and making stuff up afterwards.

This is what the Sumerians said 6000 years ago. And their texts are what most every other major religion is based on. So that is another option to add to the list of what "God" is or isn't...

You speak Sumerian?