If everyone is special, no one is special

[Said1]

I know Clay - it's weird...but she said it best:

Thanks for fixing the grammar and stuff. You could have taken it a step futher though, by explaining what is meant by "we", in the proper context of course!

 

[Said1]

I feel very strange telling someone to not feed a troll. What's happening to me?

Yeah. Go back to DU, Spy.

 

[dmp]

Thanks for fixing the grammar and stuff. You could have taken it a step futher though, by explaining what is meant by "we", in the proper context of course!

Oh - I didn't have to fix any grammar stuff - I just changed it slightly so people would more easily understand the comment, which was taken a BIT out of context, but very appropriate.

for the record "we" = people who aren't tools.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I bet he's cherrypicking his posts and our responses for reposting at some other board.

 

[Nienna]

Good job you told him where to get off, I was just about to kick his head in for talking to you like that.He won't mess with you again in a hurry.

Thanks for being "just about" to defend me! Knight in shining armor.

 

[CSM]

I feel very strange telling someone to not feed a troll. What's happening to me?

MUWAHAHAHA...You will be assimilated! Resistance is futile!

 

[jasendorf]

That's a long story... she had a HORRIBLE teacher last year. I was in communication with her AND the principal all year long. Basically, that's WHY they changed her grade, bc they thought that's what I wanted. NOOOOOO! I wanted to know what the material was BEFORE the tests, so that she could actually STUDY! Imagine that! But her teacher was too busy explaining to her 9 yo students why it was okay that she was unmarried and pregnant (not that any of the students needed to know ANYTHING about her personal life!!!) to remember to send home study sheets. And then there's the "no homework" policy at that school. Very frustrating situation. It's like pulling teeth to find out what goes on in these classrooms, and I kind of don't blame them bc I know a lot of parents would actually be satisfied with changing the kid's grade.

I ended up just looking up the 3rd grade standards and making up worksheets for her at home.

My wife had one, and only one, of her 27 6th grade students fail the Ohio reading proficiency this past year. This kid missed 20 inconsecutive days of school, was constantly disruptive, the mother told my wife (with much pride I might add) that she restricted her son to ONLY 2 hours of video games a night... but when my wife presented her with the suggestion that her student retake the 6th grade (teachers in Ohio can only suggest that a student fail a grade... they cannot actually retain a student unless the parents agree) the mother went ballistic! Screamed to high heaven about the "liberal public schools" and how they failed her son and on and on and on... nevermind that my wife had 27 OTHER students who are ready for the 7th grade (including 4 inclusion students... it was my wife and the school that caused it. Now the school board is "re-examining" the "failure" of my wife... it's crap. She's taking a year off next year to see if she wants to continue teaching and to spend time with our 10-month old.

I can't vouch for the quality of your daughter's teacher. But, I know the frustration of lots of teachers who are tired of parents constantly coming in and second-guessing their professional judgement and skill and flying off the handle accusing them of everything from being commies to failures. I'm not saying that that is you... I'm saying that this is what makes them gunshy.

 

[Nienna]

My wife had one, and only one, of her 27 6th grade students fail the Ohio reading proficiency this past year. This kid missed 20 inconsecutive days of school, was constantly disruptive, the mother told my wife (with much pride I might add) that she restricted her son to ONLY 2 hours of video games a night... but when my wife presented her with the suggestion that her student retake the 6th grade (teachers in Ohio can only suggest that a student fail a grade... they cannot actually retain a student unless the parents agree) the mother went ballistic! Screamed to high heaven about the "liberal public schools" and how they failed her son and on and on and on... nevermind that my wife had 27 OTHER students who are ready for the 7th grade (including 4 inclusion students... it was my wife and the school that caused it. Now the school board is "re-examining" the "failure" of my wife... it's crap. She's taking a year off next year to see if she wants to continue teaching and to spend time with our 10-month old.

I can't vouch for the quality of your daughter's teacher. But, I know the frustration of lots of teachers who are tired of parents constantly coming in and second-guessing their professional judgement and skill and flying off the handle accusing them of everything from being commies to failures. I'm not saying that that is you... I'm saying that this is what makes them gunshy.

I understand and totally agree with this. My sister (not my baby sister; third one down, Barb) is a teacher. She was involved in a lawsuit bc certain parents wanted their child to be labelled as "special needs," and my sister evaluated the kid. He was normal. I KNOW parents can be jerks. I honestly try to be very fair with teachers, and am more inclined to take THEIR side if they say my child did something wrong. But this woman was just unworkable. Even the principal blew me off about her. I talked to the vice-principal about it, and she told me the principal just had too many complaints about the teacher. It wasn't just me. But they couldn't fire her bc of tenure.

I don't believe that the teachers are the biggest problem with our schools (although there ARE some bad ones out there).

 

[Annie]

My wife had one, and only one, of her 27 6th grade students fail the Ohio reading proficiency this past year. This kid missed 20 inconsecutive days of school, was constantly disruptive, the mother told my wife (with much pride I might add) that she restricted her son to ONLY 2 hours of video games a night... but when my wife presented her with the suggestion that her student retake the 6th grade (teachers in Ohio can only suggest that a student fail a grade... they cannot actually retain a student unless the parents agree) the mother went ballistic! Screamed to high heaven about the "liberal public schools" and how they failed her son and on and on and on... nevermind that my wife had 27 OTHER students who are ready for the 7th grade (including 4 inclusion students... it was my wife and the school that caused it. Now the school board is "re-examining" the "failure" of my wife... it's crap. She's taking a year off next year to see if she wants to continue teaching and to spend time with our 10-month old.

I can't vouch for the quality of your daughter's teacher. But, I know the frustration of lots of teachers who are tired of parents constantly coming in and second-guessing their professional judgement and skill and flying off the handle accusing them of everything from being commies to failures. I'm not saying that that is you... I'm saying that this is what makes them gunshy.

Ok, some of what J is saying is correct, especially that above. Illinois also will not allow grade retention without parent's permission. We are allowed to fail them though, just that state law says they get to move to the next level. Thus we substitute on their report cards, assigned to grade __ instead of promoted to grade ___.

That is part of permanent records, so the parents aren't necessarily doing the kid a favor. If this happens in 8th grade, the student does not get the certificate of completion, as they have NOT completed the curricula for grammar school, even public schools take that very seriously and will either demand a proficiency test prior to entry for regular classes or test and assign to special education-does NOT look good on high school permanent records when applying to college.

What I seriously disagree with J on though is that kids are getting 'smarter', because of earlier exposure to higher level materials, along with so many outlets for information. He's correct about the exposure, starting in 1st grade the students are exposed to geometry at a basic level, becoming more complicated each year. Of course they start out with the solids that can be manipulated, then lines, etc. He's also correct about the amount of information available at the click of a key.

Science too seems to be 'the earlier the better', regarding models, lab experiments, etc. Periodic table is introduced in 4th grade, memorized in 5th.

Now our 'reading programs' are also very intensive, 100% of 2nd graders were above national norms on Terra Nova tests. Their decoding skills and phonics skills are terrific.

Funny thing, by 4th grade, we still have 100%, (minus those on IEP's) reading above grade level. Same with math. Science scores are starting to drop. Reading comprehension is also starting to drop.

5th grade, science scores drop further-still above grade level, but less so. Kinda like the kids are static. Reading drops quite a bit with some now falling into 'average' or even below. It is becoming obvious they don't have the basic understanding of concepts, not to mention those that are unable to move onto the inference stage, that should have happened in 4th or the beginning of 5th. (Testing is at the end of March). Social studies, like science are average, because of the lack of higher order thinking.

By 6th grade, there's usually one or two students referred to the public schools for testing, because their test scores along with performance indicated there may be problems. Surprise! Rarely is anything wrong detected. The kid is of avg-above average intelligence, with no learning disabilities detected. Perhaps ADD, but that's it. (i.e., the reason so many believe this is a 'fake' disability-which in this case, I agree.)

A good thing does happen in 6th grade though, they'll have the same teachers usually for 3 years. Barring the kid being a total doofus, we have a chance of taking them from where they are and helping them develop the skills they need to succeed.

Without belaboring what can be done, I want to express what I think is happening in those lower grades and how all the 'exposure' to tech and higher levels of math/science are perhaps messing up things. (Check out public school scores, which are much worse than my schools. Same phenonema: Very high scores 3/4th, falling thereafter. Worst scores in high schools.)

In order to 'impress' parents and media, schools have done their best to bring topics down to the lowest possible grade. Interestingly enough, by high school graduation, there are a few kids that have completed hs curriculum + over a year of college through AP and honors programs. Great for them. What about the 'average kid'? Well they are much less educated than their grandparents. They haven't read the classics, their math skills are abyssmal. They have zero understanding of science. They don't know geography. They have no sense of history.

There are 180 days, give or take in a child's school year. How many of those days are spent learning spheres, trapezoids, etc. in 1st grade? Oblique angels in 2nd? Why? What is the purpose, other than parents oooing and ahhing?

Wouldn't it be better that they learn addition, maybe carrying ones to tens? In 3rd and 4th grade, rather than learning all the bones in the body, wouldn't it be better that they read Tom Sawyer? (There isn't time, really). There is little down time in schools anymore.

If you are a parent, have you noticed how little writing is expected of your kids? Truly, incoming 6th graders think that the 5 paragraph essay is the most taxing writing they are going to run into!

Personally as an educator, I think the education departments in schools have really fuc*ed up education. Lower elementary should be a mix of exploration and basics. No kid should leave 3rd grade without having reading and math basics down-through multiplication facts.

4-5th grades should be devoted to using those basics and teaching the kids how to use them to understand basic science, literature, and social studies. Math should reinforce the basics and add division, and introduce the ideas of pre-algebra and geometrical shapes, (in 4th or 5th they will learn all those basic shapes in under a week-2 weeks, meanwhile they use over a month and a half in 1st-2nd, to no purpose). All these topics can be used for geography lessons in 5th grade, also incorporating for the 1st time, science labs-much better than in lower grades, where the kids don't know why they are doing what they are doing.

6th through 8th grades should be geared to researching and writing, expanding and using what they've learned before. The students should be building on a strong foundation, not a false front of 'facts' that have been fed, which they have no idea of what lies behind.

The whole thing with education reminds me of parents that get a baby to walk months before they should. It takes forever for the natural stride to kick in, much less running. Their coordination rarely is as it should be. Often a pediatrician will have to recommend that the now 'toddler' go back and work on crawling, for right-left coordination. It's a mess.

 

[Hobbit]

At this point, I'd like to demostrate the kind of person who is graduating from public schools. The person who posted this to a forum is a high school freshman who has never indicated that he might be doing poorly in school.

Yeah, it's confusing, but what he's saying is that masturbation is necessary since sperm apparantly never die until after ejaculation and if you have never ejaculated, you'll be impregnating your wife with your inferior '11 year old' sperm which contains the DNA from when you were 11, not the vastly superior DNA of a grown man. He started with 'some scientists say' no because they do, but because saying so lends credibility to his argument.

 

[jasendorf]

Your wife must feel like such a failure having failed to teach this kid to the required standard? Is her job in jeapardy over it?

She's more pissed than anything. If anyone thinks even the greatest of teachers can teach every kid no matter how unprepared, how unwilling to learn and how incorrigible the student... I think they're a moron. 27 out of 28 is the best of the sixth grade classes... and at the lowest pay in the entire county, I don't foresee them firing all the sixth grade teachers.

 

[jasendorf]

I think Kathianne hit on some very solid points... but I think she's attributing them to the wrong people (at least as I'm aware of the situation in Ohio... I really can't vouch for Illinois).

Here in Ohio, we have state-wide proficiency tests at 4th and 6th grade... what goes on those tests is determined by a state board which issues a rubric. Most schools then create some way of making sure that all of their teachers hit upon all of the items in the rubric. My wife's school used a "pie chart thingy" where they would fill in the slices of the pie which were assigned to items on the rubric. We're talking 24-30 (not 100% sure the number and it varied from subject to subject) per subject. When my wife was teaching fourth grade, I was astounded to see "can tell the difference between acute, obtuse and right angles." In the fourth grade? I know I wasn't expected to know that in the fourth grade and I highly doubt there's anyone here my age or older who can say they were. My point is that, here in Ohio, it isn't the school boards or administrations or the **gasp** evil unions that are causing this... it's the state reacting (or over-reacting) to the NCLB rewrite of the ESEA.

 

[Annie]

I think Kathianne hit on some very solid points... but I think she's attributing them to the wrong people (at least as I'm aware of the situation in Ohio... I really can't vouch for Illinois).

Here in Ohio, we have state-wide proficiency tests at 4th and 6th grade... what goes on those tests is determined by a state board which issues a rubric. Most schools then create some way of making sure that all of their teachers hit upon all of the items in the rubric. My wife's school used a "pie chart thingy" where they would fill in the slices of the pie which were assigned to items on the rubric. We're talking 24-30 (not 100% sure the number and it varied from subject to subject) per subject. When my wife was teaching fourth grade, I was astounded to see "can tell the difference between acute, obtuse and right angles." In the fourth grade? I know I wasn't expected to know that in the fourth grade and I highly doubt there's anyone here my age or older who can say they were. My point is that, here in Ohio, it isn't the school boards or administrations or the **gasp** evil unions that are causing this... it's the state reacting (or over-reacting) to the NCLB rewrite of the ESEA.

The state standards are basically built upon the education programs from the universities. Our math program for instance uses the University of Chicago's program, which 'hits' every standard for every grade. It's nonsensical, but definately impressive.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Yeah... because this is only happening in public schools:

I'll be more specific. I escaped from public schools to Andover. You can't make a bigger jump thean that. Andover's quality.

 

[dmp]

I liked my time in Public School - Hell, High School? LOVED it...easily the best six years of my life!

 

[jasendorf]

They could just fire your wife though as an example to the other useless teachers at her school.Maybe they could all do some extra training, it sounds like they need it.

Sorry, but I'm going to choose to not feed the troll on this one.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Sorry, but I'm going to choose to not feed the troll on this one.

What, you don't like when people mirror your style? He just did exactly what you did to mom4.

 

[jasendorf]

You would starve pretty quickly. You don't like it much when somebody plays dumber than you, do you?:duh3:

You were "playing"?

 

[Abbey Normal]

But the whole point of this thread is that there has to be WINNERS and LOSERS... doesn't matter if it was one-MILLION DOLLARS!!! MUWHAHAHAH... oh, wait... that's Dr. Evil...

You've just exposed precisely why schools are going with multiple valedictorians and salutorians...

As the author of this thread, I will take the privilege of telling you the "whole point of it". It is absurd and demoralizing to the real top student to award ten different people the title of Valedictorian, when you can easily differentiate between them academically.

Mom's sister wasn't asking to be elevated above someone who was ahead of her academcially. She was understandably upset when the school changed the rules after awarding her the title, based on her higher achievement at the time the calculations werre made.

If you still claim not see this distinction, it will be clear to me that you are, as you've stated elsewhere, just taking what you perceive as the anti-Republican side, regardless of logic or facts.

Btw, since you are nitpicking between rules and tradition, ad nauseum, I'll make it really simple: the "rule" was based on "tradition".

 

[Annie]

As the author of this thread, I will take the privilege of telling you the "whole point of it". It is absurd and demoralizing to the real top student to award ten different people the title of Valedictorian, when you can easily differentiate between them academically.

Mom's sister wasn't asking to be elevated above someone who was ahead of her academcially. She was understandably upset when the school changed the rules after awarding her the title, based on her higher achievement at the time the claculations werre made.

If you still claim not see this distinction, it will be clear to me that you are, as you've state delsewhere, just taking what you perceive as the anti-Republican side, regardless of logic or facts.

Btw, since you are nitpicking between rules and tradition, ad nauseum, I'll make it really simple: the "rule" was based on "tradition".

I agree Abbey. There should be 'one' best student, determined ahead of time by criteria all can access.