Zone1 I understand why non-Catholics dislike Catholicism of any variety

[ninja007]

That is NOT true. You, like all anti-Catholics, are lacking in understanding of what the Church teaches. But then you pass yourselves off as experts on it anyway... SOOO incredibly tiresome!

No Catholic worth his salt believes that we can work our way to Heaven EXCEPT that... it LOOKS like... if you read certain Scriptures.. that that IS what we are called to do!

It is complicated, as many things about God are!

There are Scriptures (I've read the entire DR Bible) that say such things as: you are judged according to your deeds. Old and New T say this.

Then there is this: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.." (Phil 2:12).

It is not like: "Oh, I have to go to the soup kitchen and volunteer EVERY day or I will fry in Hell forever!"

No, it is like this: I must pray (first "work" I think we are called to do) and through such prayer discover what God may want me to do with the talents and gifts he has given me. Then when I act on that, I may discover I didn't get things perfectly right the first time... I get back on my feet, pray more and continue on... The Bible says to pray incessantly. That is the first "work" we are called to IMO, along with sharing the Gospel w/ others... But you have to know something before you can share it w/ others..

you totally miss context on phil 2:12. it says work out not work for. Jesus states many times about salvation verses showing you know you can be saved NOW. YOU dont do good to get saved you do good because you already ARE SAVED. HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE.

 

[ninja007]

To a Catholic eternal life is a merited reward that he has gained by cooperating withGod by his works. While we are to do this, the motivation is very different, one is for salvation the other is because one has it already. Rom.8:1, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

 

[ninja007]

1 Jn.1:7, "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

[Meriweather]

To a Catholic eternal life is a merited reward that he has gained by cooperating withGod by his works. While we are to do this, the motivation is very different, one is for salvation the other is because one has it already. Rom.8:1, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Recall what Catholics teach about redemption. Christ's life redeemed the world, meaning all have access to God and His ways. Recall what Christ taught about God's kingdom. It is within everyone's reach here and now. One enters the Kingdom in our own present by discerning the will of God and following it. This way of life is the way of salvation, and salvation is eternal. It is also rewarding.

Recall Jesus words on building up treasure in heaven, keeping the story of Job in mind. Sometimes evil prospers and bad things happen to those who are good. All that is temporary while the treasure that awaits in the afterlife/heaven is eternal.

God's Law, God's ways are good which is why so many people of faith work for God's ways/God's will be done here on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[nomadic5]

you totally miss context on phil 2:12. it says work out not work for. Jesus states many times about salvation verses showing you know you can be saved NOW. YOU dont do good to get saved you do good because you already ARE SAVED. HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I never said what you claim I said

so... So much for the straw man.

 

[nomadic5]

To a Catholic eternal life is a merited reward that he has gained by cooperating withGod by his works. While we are to do this, the motivation is very different, one is for salvation the other is because one has it already. Rom.8:1, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Those who continue in sin are NOT "in Christ Jesus"

You can't just accept Jesus and then go about your life same as always and expect to get to Heaven like that. There is NO onceSavedAlwaysSaved

That is a LIE from the pit of Hell.

Satan rules this world and he puts that lie into ... whomever will listen to it.

 

[nomadic5]

Recall what Catholics teach about redemption. Christ's life redeemed the world, meaning all have access to God and His ways. Recall what Christ taught about God's kingdom. It is within everyone's reach here and now. One enters the Kingdom in our own present by discerning the will of God and following it. This way of life is the way of salvation, and salvation is eternal. It is also rewarding.

Recall Jesus words on building up treasure in heaven, keeping the story of Job in mind. Sometimes evil prospers and bad things happen to those who are good. All that is temporary while the treasure that awaits in the afterlife/heaven is eternal.

God's Law, God's ways are good which is why so many people of faith work for God's ways/God's will be done here on earth as it is in heaven.

The problem with what you are saying here is that people OFTEN claim they are listening to God. But are they? How do we know when we are deceiving ourselves?

It is so easy for mere humans to deceive themselves, and not realize it at all. I believe God gives us clues here and there when we are on the wrong track. But not everyone listens to those clues... some even write them off as being from the devil. I think of anti-Catholic people (for some reason)

They have been given clues over and over that the RCC is the Church Christ himself founded, and yet they don't want to act on that knowledge because... a lot of times it is because they don't want to give up the life they have. That is SO typical of humans vis a vis Christianity in general. We don't want to give up certain sins, so we just rationalize them away. The Real Presence of Christ abides in the Catholic Church (I say even in the novus ordo churches... though probably NOT all of them). I've noticed that when I spend time there, I am closer to Jesus even after leaving there than I was... when not spending time there. But for some strange reason, protestants do not want to hear about this tangible Presence... and so, will they end up in hell? maybe. If they refuse to listen to Truth.. they will end up there. And it will be their own fault.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem with what you are saying here is that people OFTEN claim they are listening to God. But are they? How do we know when we are deceiving ourselves?

We have quite a task before us. We are to love and listen to God--and we are also to love and listen to our neighbor because we all see things from unique perspectives. On top of this, we are all in various stages of growth and learning.

While not always possible, a checklist comes in handy as we reflect on how well we are listening to all we should be and loving as we should be.
I see love of others being a huge problem today. Words like racist, bigot, dims, conservatives destroying America, etc

 

[nomadic5]

We have quite a task before us. We are to love and listen to God--and we are also to love and listen to our neighbor because we all see things from unique perspectives. On top of this, we are all in various stages of growth and learning.

While not always possible, a checklist comes in handy as we reflect on how well we are listening to all we should be and loving as we should be.
I see love of others being a huge problem today. Words like racist, bigot, dims, conservatives destroying America, etc

Love is a hackneyed word. Few seem to know the meaning of it. It should be seen as a verb (implying action is required) but most people see it as some noun or whatever. When you love someone, you help him find what is best for him(her). What is best for your children, for example, is not giving them everything they want, never arguing with them (teens..), never giving them boundaries. you may have a lot of affection for them and are trying to love them but your love is subjective, not objective. Only God loves the way people need to be loved. If a person turns out to be a good parent w/o a lot of "studying" or whatever, well, maybe those people have lucked out. But parents who fit that above description.. always "validating" their children, never disciplining them, etc... are asking for BIG trouble.

It is the same w/ any kind of love. Love is giving people what they need, really need (in GOD's view), not in your own view. And most people these days don't seem to give a rat's behind about God's definition of the word Love.

Jesus is the love of God made man. But no one even talks about Him.

 

[ninja007]

Those who continue in sin are NOT "in Christ Jesus"

You can't just accept Jesus and then go about your life same as always and expect to get to Heaven like that. There is NO onceSavedAlwaysSaved

That is a LIE from the pit of Hell.

Satan rules this world and he puts that lie into ... whomever will

John 5:24

Verse Concepts


“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jude 1:24

Verse Concepts


Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

Romans 8:16

Verse Concepts


The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Hebrews 7:25

Verse Concepts


Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.



John 10:29

Verse Concepts


My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Ephesians 4:30

Verse Concepts


Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 6:47

Verse Concepts


Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Romans 8:38-39


For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[ninja007]

Those who continue in sin are NOT "in Christ Jesus"

You can't just accept Jesus and then go about your life same as always and expect to get to Heaven like that. There is NO onceSavedAlwaysSaved

That is a LIE from the pit of Hell.

Satan rules this world and he puts that lie into ... whomever will listen to it.

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day,” (John 6:37-40).

• Romans 3:27-28, Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
• Romans 4:1-5, What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[ninja007]

Those who continue in sin are NOT "in Christ Jesus"

You can't just accept Jesus and then go about your life same as always and expect to get to Heaven like that. There is NO onceSavedAlwaysSaved

That is a LIE from the pit of Hell.

Satan rules this world and he puts that lie into ... whomever will listen to it.

actually purgatory is.
There are no second chances after your last breath.
Question: What does the Bible say about purgatory?

Answer: The simple answer to this question is that the Bible says nothing about purgatory. The doctrine of purgatory is not a Scriptural concept. We do, however, see much discussion in God’s Word about the only two destinations for those who have died: Heaven and Hell.
Jesus spoke significantly of both, and yet there is never a mention of a third place, an interim location where man undergoes further purification. The concept of purgatory implies that Christ’s work on the cross was incomplete and insufficient to save us from judgment for our sins. We know, however, that the full redemptive work of Christ was accomplished on the cross, just as Christ Himself declared, “It is finished” (John 19:30).
For believers, the end of this life will be the beginning of our eternal life with the LORD. We can see this in Jesus’ parable about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, whereby Lazarus was taken immediately upon his death to “Abraham’s side,” a common figure-of-speech for Heaven, and the rich man was immediately cast into torment in Hades. Paul assures believers in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 that to be “away from the body” is to be “at home with the Lord.” Those who have been saved by faith in Jesus Christ may rest assured that their debt has been paid by Christ Himself and that their death will find them standing before God justified and glorified, and welcomed into His kingdom.
[31] “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [33] And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. [34] Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Matthew 25:31-34 ESV)

What does the Bible say about purgatory?

The Bible says nothing about purgatory because the doctrine of purgatory is a later tradition that didn't yet exist in the time of the New Testament.

carm.org

 

[ninja007]

Jesus said, “It is finished,” (John 19:30)​

Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, “It is finished.” In Greek, the phrase, “It is finished” is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away God’s wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done… It was finished.


Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in Purgatory for sins not covered by baptism and not covered by the cross. It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit a work of suffering. Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.


When Jesus said, “It is finished,” all that was necessary for the atonement was concluded, and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ’s work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary but also it contradicts God’s Word. Again and again throughout Scripture, faith, not faith PLUS baptism, is seen as the means through which one receives salvation (John 1:12; 3:14-16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:19-26; 4; 10:9-13; etc.).

Does purgatory deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice?

If the punishment for our sins must be finished in purgatory, then it wasn't finished in the atoning work of Christ, it contradicts God's Word

carm.org

 

[rampart]

I went to this purportedly Catholic site and got into a discussion with some of the "Catholics" there. OMG!

It was unbelievable. They insulted me at every turn and acted like only they knew anything about... just whatever topic. They disagreed with stuff that they would then turn around and put in different words and act like they were correct and I am just an idiot.

So this is obviously very un-Christian behavior. There were a few posters there who were polite and acted like a true Christian so I don't want to act like everyone there is evil LOL

But yeh... sadly, I can now fully understand (partially understood already) why non-Catholics get a feeling of actual evil in dealing with "Catholics" so called.

I got to talking with this Mexican woman in a grocery store some years ago and she said (it was like fingernails on a chalk board back then) that she "used to be Catholic, but now I'm a Christian"

OMG!

Catholics (the sincere ones) ARE definitely Christian. As stated before, the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded. But ahhhhhhhhhhh

It is full of demons IMO

And not just the NO sect (Vatican et al) either...

Yes, I know, I should focus on the posters who were sincere... I do tend to see the glass half empty.

But you know... What I've said here needed to be said..

1, generalizations about catholicism are generally wrong. there is room inside the universal religion for liberation theology and opus dei self flagellation and nearly everything in between. we'll leave the snake handling and "speaking in tongues" to the protestants, though.

2. christ's teachings are explained in the early chapters of matthew. without flying off into some 1/2 baked interpretation of apocalypse, please explain how future saint francis is not the greatest pope since peter?

 

[nomadic5]

1, generalizations about catholicism are generally wrong. there is room inside the universal religion for liberation theology and opus dei self flagellation and nearly everything in between. we'll leave the snake handling and "speaking in tongues" to the protestants, though.

2. christ's teachings are explained in the early chapters of matthew. without flying off into some 1/2 baked interpretation of apocalypse, please explain how future saint francis is not the greatest pope since peter?

what?

I don't get this. And Francis is not going to be a saint. He hates the Catholic faith

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

And here we have it! A non-Catholic telling Catholics what we "really" believe.

That's because your leaders discourage reading the Best bar and expect you to believe what they tell you to believe

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

there is room inside the universal religion

You are NOT the "universal religion " We do not accept your beliefs

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

And Francis is not going to be a saint

You're right about this.
The BIBLICAL definition of a "saint" is one in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. Francis is no saint.

 

[Meriweather]

That's because your leaders discourage reading the Best bar and expect you to believe what they tell you to believe

Pure ignorance. No need to take up in your own mind re-creating scenarios of what Catholicism "really" is. Following your own religion/faith should suffice without having to make up another "religion" you can knock down, and call it "Catholicism" in order to feel good about what you do believe.

 

[nomadic5]

Actually, I'm in a different place today

I've grown and now I say this:

I absolutely CANNOT understand a person staying 100% away from the Catholic Church all his/her life despite any criticism the person may have about the CC.

Yes, I can u/stand having issues with the loony Francis, but Jesus promised to protect His Church until the END

He said He would be WITH US until the END.

Mt 28:20

So despite all the imposter popes we've have since 1958, Jesus is still with us in the Catholic Church... unless at some particular Church He just says: "I'm not going to be in this particular so-called Church because the priest here has just gone too far with the woke stuff... accepting perversion as normal, etc"

It's possible