I Don't Understand Anyone Who Opposes The New Law

[Care4all]

I am not fooling myself, I will never accept that I have to carry PAPERS, like Nazi Germany, in order to walk down the street.....NEVER!

 

[pinqy]

Tell me , how is racial profiling "BAD"?

Because it is selecting people for suspicion based solely on their race and not based on anything that has to do with any particular offense. And it's bad math.

Call me the devil's advocate. If the shoe fits...Most illegal aliens are Hispanic, Latino or Chicano. They are Mexicans, and they aren’t shy about it.

While most illegal aliens are Hispanic, most Hispanics are not illegal aliens..that's where the math is bad. If you took a random sample of illegal aliens, the majority would be from Mexico/Central/South America. But is you took a random sample of people who have apparent ancestry from Mexico/Central/South America, the majority would be legal citizens or resident aliens.

An individual is not a statistic..Let's say that 1 out of every 5 Hispanics is illegal (I made that number up, it's probably a lower percentage). That means that if you randomly selected enough Hispanics, on average 1 out of every 5 would be illegal. What it does NOT mean is that if you pick a Hispanic at random, there is a 1 out of 5 chance he's illegal. That's not how it works...his chances are either 100% or 0%. So what racial profiling does is to knowingly stop innocent people without any particular reason in order to eventually catch violaters. And in the meantime, you're stopping large numbers of legal Hispanics and ignoring the illegal Irish, Albanians, Canadians, Norwegians, Guyanans, Ethiopians etc because they're the wrong color. How does that make sense?

In other words, all racial profiling does is to unnecessarily harrass a large number of people who have done nothing wrong in order to find some who have, and ignoring others who have done wrong because they don't have the same skin color as the majority. That's contrary to the 4th ammendment. Do you really think that if there's a serial killer the police should stop every single white male between 25 and 45 and ask for their alibi? It's ridiculous and pointless and all it does is demonize whatever group is selected.

 

[froggy]

I am not fooling myself, I will never accept that I have to carry PAPERS, like Nazi Germany, in order to walk down the street.....NEVER!

So if your ran over and kill you next of kin will go through a lot more worry wondering where you are until you Jane doe body can be identified.

 

[Angelhair]

Sure profiling can be a bad thing and can be abused by some and possibly also make some people uncomfortable because of the generalization when it comes to who looks like they could be illegal or not....

But, how can any person in this country who pays taxes, and who's future is being sacrificed by the debt we're in, oppose the idea of keeping people out of this country who aren't here legally and who are being a burden on our society...

Legal Mexicans who will be asked for their paperz. They will look just as illegal until they produce them and that is not the America I know.

You must stop paying attention to your president. They will not ask for your 'papers'! They will ask for an ID i.e. driver's license, auto ins proof; car registration; if and when you have committed an infraction! And if there is cause for concern, they WILL ask for more proof. So, if you are a legal resident, and as the FEDERAL law mandates, make sure you have your residence card ready. If here ILLEGALLY, then you will be reported and maybe deported. It's that simple. If practically ALL of Mexico, Central/SoAmerica had not decided to enter this country illegally, a lot of what is going on would not be.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

Sure profiling can be a bad thing and can be abused by some and possibly also make some people uncomfortable because of the generalization when it comes to who looks like they could be illegal or not....

But, how can any person in this country who pays taxes, and who's future is being sacrificed by the debt we're in, oppose the idea of keeping people out of this country who aren't here legally and who are being a burden on our society...

I dont care about racial profiling at all.. But I do care about violation of peoples' rights.

Even though I like the premise of the Arizona law, I cannot support it because it is unconstitutional. Im a caucasian male, and yet the law could theoretically have me arrested for failing to produce my papers even if Im minding my own business walking down a public sidewalk.

And exactly how do you figure THAT? And while you're at it, I'd be fascinated to hear how you get "Unconstitutional" out of something that was very carefully crafted with that very opposing argument in mind.

Because the law violates the 4th amendment. Like I said... Im all for illegals being deported legally.. But to make not showing one's papers a crime violates the constitution.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

There was a discussion about this on this board "papers" is actually an old-fashioned term in this computer era. Police can check data bases as well if someone is not carrying their license or other form of ID. And all you need is one of several acceptable forms of ID. There are plenty of illegals with licenses. They will still be safe from the big, bad police - unless they are committing another crime - which is why people will be stopped in the first place.

Also - there are stiff penalties for police who overstep their authority. That in and of itself should prevent profiling.

As for the OP - opponents are few. They just have really big mouths.

It has already happened. A Drivers license wasnt enough and the cops demanded a guys birth certificate.. he told them it was home, so they arrested him.

the arizona law is illegal

 

[froggy]

There was a discussion about this on this board "papers" is actually an old-fashioned term in this computer era. Police can check data bases as well if someone is not carrying their license or other form of ID. And all you need is one of several acceptable forms of ID. There are plenty of illegals with licenses. They will still be safe from the big, bad police - unless they are committing another crime - which is why people will be stopped in the first place.

Also - there are stiff penalties for police who overstep their authority. That in and of itself should prevent profiling.

As for the OP - opponents are few. They just have really big mouths.

It has already happened. A Drivers license wasnt enough and the cops demanded a guys birth certificate.. he told them it was home, so they arrested him.

the arizona law is illegal

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

There was a discussion about this on this board "papers" is actually an old-fashioned term in this computer era. Police can check data bases as well if someone is not carrying their license or other form of ID. And all you need is one of several acceptable forms of ID. There are plenty of illegals with licenses. They will still be safe from the big, bad police - unless they are committing another crime - which is why people will be stopped in the first place.

Also - there are stiff penalties for police who overstep their authority. That in and of itself should prevent profiling.

As for the OP - opponents are few. They just have really big mouths.

It has already happened. A Drivers license wasnt enough and the cops demanded a guys birth certificate.. he told them it was home, so they arrested him.

the arizona law is illegal

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion.

The constitution says nothing about 'reasonable suspicion' only probable cause. Just because somebody's been using 'reasonable suspicion' as some 'accepted process' doesnt make it right or constitutional...

The problem with this law is that it violates peoples' privacy...Now, I like Jan Brewer.. I do. and I like all the other laws Arizona has done to exert its 10th amendment rights.. But imagine the next governor of Arizona is Mexican and wants to use this law to hassle white people..

Its like my Republican friends who are horrified on learning that the feds under obama can look up their medical records without a warrant.. When they ask me where Obama got such power from I tell them - the Patriot Act under George Bush.

 

[froggy]

It has already happened. A Drivers license wasnt enough and the cops demanded a guys birth certificate.. he told them it was home, so they arrested him.

the arizona law is illegal

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion.

The constitution says nothing about 'reasonable suspicion' only probable cause. Just because somebody's been using 'reasonable suspicion' as some 'accepted process' doesnt make it right or constitutional...

The problem with this law is that it violates peoples' privacy...Now, I like Jan Brewer.. I do. and I like all the other laws Arizona has done to exert its 10th amendment rights.. But imagine the next governor of Arizona is Mexican and wants to use this law to hassle white people..

Its like my Republican friends who are horrified on learning that the feds under obama can look up their medical records without a warrant.. When they ask me where Obama got such power from I tell them - the Patriot Act under George Bush.

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion.

The constitution says nothing about 'reasonable suspicion' only probable cause. Just because somebody's been using 'reasonable suspicion' as some 'accepted process' doesnt make it right or constitutional...

The problem with this law is that it violates peoples' privacy...Now, I like Jan Brewer.. I do. and I like all the other laws Arizona has done to exert its 10th amendment rights.. But imagine the next governor of Arizona is Mexican and wants to use this law to hassle white people..

Its like my Republican friends who are horrified on learning that the feds under obama can look up their medical records without a warrant.. When they ask me where Obama got such power from I tell them - the Patriot Act under George Bush.

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law.

Here is a quote from the highest law of the land. If any other law contradicts this highest law, then that lesser law is automatically null and void and of no force. It is no law at all, and neednt be followed by anybody.

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[Nate]

It seems some people have come on here to bitch about how anti american this law is without knowing anything about it, come on people knowing is half the battle!!!

1. Will SB1070 force police to racially profile?

SB1070 says police cannot solely consider race, color or national origin.

It also says officers can only ask during a valid traffic stop or an investigation with probable cause.

In short, for those who say it allows officers to profile... it doesn't.

2. Will you need to prove that you are a U.S. citizen if you are stopped?

The bill is clear, if you're a U.S. citizen you need local, state or federally issued identification, like a driver's license.

If you're a naturalized citizen you need your green card or proof of citizenship. But that's already required by the U.S. government, not Arizona.

So do you need proof? Yes.

3. Another concern is if SB1070 will cost governments and taxpayers.

The law will require every officer to be trained. The governor just ordered it.

There will also be extra costs for prosectuing, transporting and jailing suspects.

How much? Police and correction departments are still figuring that out, but it will cost us.

4. Other issues have come up about if the bill is constitutional and if it "mirrors" federal law.

The bill is based on U.S. statutes and gives Arizona police the power that federal officers have.

It's not a new idea. In 1996, the U.S. trained local officers to enforce national immigration laws under the 287(g) program.

This bill is a bigger extension of that program.

Is federal immigration law different from Arizona's new law? - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

It seems some people have come on here to bitch about how anti american this law is without knowing anything about it, come on people knowing is half the battle!!!

1. Will SB1070 force police to racially profile?

SB1070 says police cannot solely consider race, color or national origin.

It also says officers can only ask during a valid traffic stop or an investigation with probable cause.

In short, for those who say it allows officers to profile... it doesn't.

2. Will you need to prove that you are a U.S. citizen if you are stopped?

The bill is clear, if you're a U.S. citizen you need local, state or federally issued identification, like a driver's license.

If you're a naturalized citizen you need your green card or proof of citizenship. But that's already required by the U.S. government, not Arizona.

So do you need proof? Yes.

3. Another concern is if SB1070 will cost governments and taxpayers.

The law will require every officer to be trained. The governor just ordered it.

There will also be extra costs for prosectuing, transporting and jailing suspects.

How much? Police and correction departments are still figuring that out, but it will cost us.

4. Other issues have come up about if the bill is constitutional and if it "mirrors" federal law.

The bill is based on U.S. statutes and gives Arizona police the power that federal officers have.

It's not a new idea. In 1996, the U.S. trained local officers to enforce national immigration laws under the 287(g) program.

This bill is a bigger extension of that program.

Is federal immigration law different from Arizona's new law? - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com

Read the actual bill and not somebody's explanation of the bill. Go to the 2nd page and read lines 20-22... Thats where I have a problem with it.

Like I said.. a citizen was already arrested for showing his DL but not having his birth certificate.. and thats without the law even technically taking effect yet. If you want to see the video.. Ill be happy to show you

 

[froggy]

The constitution says nothing about 'reasonable suspicion' only probable cause. Just because somebody's been using 'reasonable suspicion' as some 'accepted process' doesnt make it right or constitutional...

The problem with this law is that it violates peoples' privacy...Now, I like Jan Brewer.. I do. and I like all the other laws Arizona has done to exert its 10th amendment rights.. But imagine the next governor of Arizona is Mexican and wants to use this law to hassle white people..

Its like my Republican friends who are horrified on learning that the feds under obama can look up their medical records without a warrant.. When they ask me where Obama got such power from I tell them - the Patriot Act under George Bush.

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law.

Here is a quote from the highest law of the land. If any other law contradicts this highest law, then that lesser law is automatically null and void and of no force. It is no law at all, and neednt be followed by anybody.

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

but not for contraband like drugs.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law.

Here is a quote from the highest law of the land. If any other law contradicts this highest law, then that lesser law is automatically null and void and of no force. It is no law at all, and neednt be followed by anybody.

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

but not for contraband like drugs.

Unless somebody has a warrant to come into my house to search, or to search my personal effects, then yes.. even for drugs too.. for ANYTHING.

 

[Zona]

Here is that link to Bill 1070 that the Arizona Governor signed last moth. At the top of the page it will tell you what the colored text is all about. She sent it back once for changes before she would sign it. HERE

I am going to guess....you are not Hispanic. You wont be pulled over and asked for paperz.....

OH and did you know our gov is asking Palin for idea's on how to change our image. Palin!

Remember the MLK Birthday celebration thing a few years ago?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Sure profiling can be a bad thing and can be abused by some and possibly also make some people uncomfortable because of the generalization when it comes to who looks like they could be illegal or not....

But, how can any person in this country who pays taxes, and who's future is being sacrificed by the debt we're in, oppose the idea of keeping people out of this country who aren't here legally and who are being a burden on our society...

Those against the law has never read it, including Obama and Holder.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Sure profiling can be a bad thing and can be abused by some and possibly also make some people uncomfortable because of the generalization when it comes to who looks like they could be illegal or not....

But, how can any person in this country who pays taxes, and who's future is being sacrificed by the debt we're in, oppose the idea of keeping people out of this country who aren't here legally and who are being a burden on our society...

Legal Mexicans who will be asked for their paperz. They will look just as illegal until they produce them and that is not the America I know.

Legal citizens of all colors are asked for ID every fucking day you stupid fuck!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Sure profiling can be a bad thing and can be abused by some and possibly also make some people uncomfortable because of the generalization when it comes to who looks like they could be illegal or not....

But, how can any person in this country who pays taxes, and who's future is being sacrificed by the debt we're in, oppose the idea of keeping people out of this country who aren't here legally and who are being a burden on our society...

I dont care about racial profiling at all.. But I do care about violation of peoples' rights.

Even though I like the premise of the Arizona law, I cannot support it because it is unconstitutional. Im a caucasian male, and yet the law could theoretically have me arrested for failing to produce my papers even if Im minding my own business walking down a public sidewalk.

Are you saying federal immigration law is unconstitutional? Just point ot one aspect of Arizona law that in your opinion is unconstitutional.


I willing to bet you haven't read the bill.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I'll be damned if I am forced to carry ID with me to walk down the street, in this land of the free....

I will NEVER accept this....till the day I die....

Oh brother another idiot chimes in. Hey stupid if you are a legal citizen you have nothing to fear. But according to federal law if you are a noncitizen you are REQUIRED BY LAW to carry your papers with you at all times! Why are liberals so damn stupid!

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

Here is that link to Bill 1070 that the Arizona Governor signed last moth. At the top of the page it will tell you what the colored text is all about. She sent it back once for changes before she would sign it. HERE

I take it this is the new bill with the changes? I havent read this one yet, and will have to do so. Appreciate the link.